Zerg Strategy Discussion

Two hatcheries is fine, it's a matter of when you do it. If you sacrifice too much economy and/or your pool it is just defense you miss out on. All that extra cash flow you lose both hurts your early economy (diminshing the benefit of a 2nd hatchery) and makes it harder to support the 2nd hatchery in the first place. Plus you get your first Queen a bit later, which is both time (drones) you lose from not having spawn larvae earlier and from being further behind on her energy regeneration.

Feel free to play with builds, I'm just saying I tried the 12/10 hatch vs 16/18 hatch and it doesn't end up benefiting you in any meaningful way, but it does cost you quite a bit.

 

But everyone says Zerg needs 2 bases early to win. So I thought how to get a fastest one and still have a pool in reasonable time.

Also when going for a early natural (this way or after a queen), I had problems on smaller maps with toss rushing (or terran rushing).

I lost to mass marines (I think the guy build 3 barracks with reactors and totally destroyed me). I didn't have enough time to get towers up and my lings and hydras could do nothing.

Also I had toss rush me with couple of zealots, and then just stalkers. Zealots harassed me enough that I could not make enough spine crawlers to be safe and then when I did make two he came with stalkers, just passed by the towers and killed my expansion from the crystals side
By that time I could not make enough lings to kill them, especially since he put himself in the corner and lings could not surround them. And I could not save enough money to build roach warren (I used all money for spines and lings trying to keep my expansion alive).

 

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24401853325&sid=3000&pageNo=2 Look at the last post.

I hope they do something great and good. I loved to play Zerg in Sc1, but have little fun here. I play them more out of spite because they are obviously weaker side that need more skill and micro to be equal. I only play Zerg for the last week, but played only random for 3 weeks before that and my claim is from my experience of playing all kind of combinations.

 

Again, it is about what you're sacrificing to get that 2nd hatchery slightly earlier.

I'm in no way saying building an early 2nd hatchery or even expanding early are bad ideas. I'm saying that BO is sacrificing so much that it ends up hurting you instead of helping you. It would be like 6 pooling for defense instead of a rush. Yeah, you got the earliest possible units to defend your base, but you essentially crippled your economy to do it and since you aren't rushing they aren't doing anything for you that a later pool wouldn't have also done.

 

I have another question that is not on topic with what you are talking, sorry! I'd feel worse if I just made new threads for these quick questions, and they seem to fit here.

I played a game, Zerg vs Zerg. I got zergling rushed and lost. I'll admit, I didn't play a great game. I went for a 13 pool, he went a 6 pool. When I scouted I didn't check to see how complete his pool was, nor did I notice my drone got taken out by Zerglings. But to be honest, my drone got there at around 12 supply. Even if I had noticed the 6 pool, I couldn't have done anything. I also didn't get a super fast 13 pool, although it wasn't a slow one either.

What did I do wrong? Should I have scouted sooner? If so, when do people normally scout?

P.S. I have the replay if you want, but I don't know how to post it, so if you want to see it, you'll have to show me/send me a link about how to post it.

Thanks!

 

When you make a post, in the full-menu screen (not a quick post but advanced) there is a little black paper clip icon to the right of the font type/siz options.

Click that, select SC2Replay and browse to your replay, which by default should save somewhere like Documents--->Starcraft2Beta---->Replays----->Recent.

Select the right file to attach to your post. Viola.

_____________

For the record its more about drone management at that point though. You want to micro your drones to harrass his lings, but to run away your drones and not to actually face them when he turns from attacking your buildings or even better, properly anticipating and micro'ing you drones away the moment before he turns to attack them.

Ideally you buy time for your Queen/zerglings to pop and/or your spine crawler to pop, then mop up the lings with a combination of that and your drones (even if he outnumbers your lings, if you shield them with drones and micro them around you win easily).

Scouting comes into play in terms of knowing the rush is coming, and making sure you leave enough minerals/supply to counter, i.e. not leaving yourself broke or with no supply to build lings when you're forced to start microing your drones and not harvesting minerals full time.

 

Uff, I had a bunch of strange ZvZ battles yesterday. First on I go Roach and the enemy kills me with speedlings.
Then I say: OK, roaches such afterall and decide to go speedlings as well. I play vs a player that goes banelings+speedlings and kills me. OK, I learn from that and win next 4 ZvZ games with banelings as well.

Then I play vs Zerg that goes Roaches and my baneling+Speedling does **** against him

 

Well, I need advice hot to beat Storm as Zerg on smaller maps (that do not let you outflank your enemy as easily as you should).

 

So the lessons should be:

1) Banelings demolish tier 1 units like speedlings. The counter for the tier 1 units is to not clump up, and try to take advantage of sloppy control by the opponent and the AI's programming that will indescriminately explode the banelings. You can take out an entire platoon of banelings with a couple of zerglings if the opponent isn't paying attention by making them all go off. Edit: and by counter I don't actually mean it is a counter to banelings, but micro you should be doing to try and gain an advantage. Good control of banelings + speedlings will trump your larger army of speedlings.

2) Roaches have a bonus against biological units (plus range and the ability to heal) and thus are a natural counter to things like speedlings. The reason you beat Roaches that first game probably had more to do with numbers and being able to surround them. If I'm going speed/banelings against a Roach opponent I always try to attack him just as/before he is getting Roaches en masse and either catch them out numbered and surround them, or avoid them and punish the base when the opponent moves them out (this is also how you counter mutalisks vs speedlings until you get anti-air. But as far as unit effectiveness goes in a straight up fight the Roaches have the advantage.

In both speedling vs roach and speedling vs muta it's about outnumbering and timing your first attack to cripple/maim his economy, followed by hit and run to confine him to his base (if he comes after you, you hit his base and your lings will raze it faster, if he returns to defend, you run away) as you swap strategies (against roaches that is usually mutas, against mutas that is usually hydralisks and a spore crawler or two).


By "Storm" do you mean psi-storm or something else?

 

:yes:

If you look at the games I won, then you see, I almost always had a fast expansion (14-17).
On the other hand, almost all lost games where due to the fact that I had not enough units. Which is simply because I did not expand early enough.

So, I would definetely say, as Zerg, you have to expand early! No possibility to go one base like it's possible with Terran or Protoss.

 

Note there is a large difference between fast expanding and simply building a 2nd hatch. It isn't necessary to fast expand to keep up on unit production.

 

So you would go for a (for example):
14 pool
15 hatch (main base)
16 gas / queen (for example)

and then expand when you have some units? Say, around 25 or 30 supply?

I am not sure, if I get enough minerals from only one base, when I have two hatches and a queen.. hmmm.

 

You expand based on the pace of the game and what you are trying to do. You can definitely get enough minerals for only two hatcheries.

But my main point is that you don't HAVE to quick expand as zerg to build a 2nd hatchery. Hatcheries double as zerg's combat producing ability, and thus building a 2nd hatchery is a lot like throwing down multiple gateways.

That said, I almost always build my 2nd hatch at my natural expansion if theyre close enough that I can defend both from a common "choke" area. Even if I don't populate it with workers right away, there are distinct advantages to having it in place.

 

I like this build that i have been playing with and learned from some other players I play / watch.

10/10 overlord
14/18 spawning pool
14/18 zergling
15/18 zergling
16/18 zergling
18/18 Queen
17/18 Extractor trick
18/18 zergling
19/18 overlord
drone used for extractor trick us to make hatchery expansion.

So at the end you should be at 18/18 with 8 zerglings/1 queen/ 2nd expansion and a overlord on the way.

Once zerglings pop out go to there base and harrass them if you can if not then just try move them around take the towers to gain vision over the map and bring the rest back to your base for defence.

Once second hatchery is up make sure you throw down some sunkens and get a queen coming out and that should be more then enough for a defense against another player.

Please let me know what you guys think. I'm always up for suggestions

 

Looks like a solid Zergling opener, but I think once the second hatchery completes, you might be behind on gas depending on how much economic damage you did with your first Zergling army.

The defensive structures sound like a nice touch as you will be macroing Drones to make up for the late gas. Would you go Banelings? Roach? Hydra? It depends on who the opponent is, I suppose.


On another note: Just updated the build order section on page 1 of this forum.

 

Yeah depending on what i see in the opponents base i would build from there on... It's more of a harrasment build then anything. And it gives you the advantage of a fast expansion. I never really have to much problem with my gas and by the time i see what's going on with the other person they usually only have a few guys outs and i can do some damage to there mineral line and i can also get a economy boost by having 2 bases already. But if they are heavy guarded then i switch it up and start. Lets say if they have a Starport and i'm afraid they are going to come at me with banshee then i dont throw up alot of sunkens and i start make 2 extra queens for the air control. And if i see mass produce of zealots i throw up 4 sunkens or 5 depending on how many zealots i see then i make some extra lings for the defense. then they usually loose alot of there zealots and wasted there economy on nothing. and i have to bases to make up and pretty much overcome whatever they can bring. It's a pretty solid build and i dont loose much with it

 

the only thing that stays standard is your opener.

i go 14 pool 15 hatch fast, ( you need that economy going before you start massing zerglings or getting spine crawlers without a problem.)
the reason for this, is that zerg produces units faster than any race, so by the time you get your 14 workers, he's still at around 10 supply and building his supply depot/barrack.

while hatch is being built, i can make enough zerglings and a queen to fend off any stupid rush coming at me.
I use my queen to block off my ramp too. Sometimes I have to make 2 queens.

This opener has never failed me, then i tech up to fast hydras and roaches. I can usually get it before he gets a diverse army. I also use speed lings to go around and flank or do a run-in into his base while I distract him. Plus you are working on two mining bases so you can constantly send waves and waves of units until his production time catches down and you overwhelm him

this is what professional BM player IdrA does.

pro terran players build a bunker in front of your hatch and stops you from getting your expo.

 

Well in better leagues protoss likes to go early harrass. That means that before your hatchery at the natural finishes you got 2-3 zealots attacking it. Sometimes they will also build a plyon at you natural and cancel it at the last moment. That delays the hatchery even more. Delayed hatchery means no creep, and no creep means no defensive buildings and slow *** queen that is almost useless.

This is especially damaging on short distance maps like Steppes of War.
As far as I have seen the FE build order for Zerg only works against non-aggressive opponents (as in not diamond or some platinum level) or FE toss or terran.

Terran will do even worse with building bunkers next to your FE or at that position and if you are lucky bring a marine or 2 to put inside and if you are not, a reaper or 2.

I think in the future we may see more and more high level Zerg actually building hatcheries next to their original to get a real force on the field faster and saturate their main faster. Then building an expansion is a matter of transferring drones to it for it to be useful and then building troops of 3 hatcheries with 2 queen to give them extra larvae.

 

I've found very few protoss or terran to do that right now. When it does happen (and I do anticipate and look for it) you just throw down a 2nd hatchery at your base right away. At least when I play, the real goal isn't FE in the first place but to setup the 2x hatch pump. Later on its nice because I can quad gas and don't have to wait for the expo to finish, but I almost never saturate my FE right away (I usually have 2-4 drones there for defensive purposes and what not). It is also nice from a psychological standpoint (opponents may assume you ARE going to saturate it and fail to provide enough defense for the mass speed/baneling attack that follows).

In 1v1 I usually find terrans can't hold a bunker in front of my base. 2x queens plus early banelings AND a spinecrawler (remember, these things are mobile in SC2) is too much.

2v2 is a different matter and against top level opponents I have been beaten twice by players using a bunker based rush before (once a marauder/zealot/bunker rush and once a 2x reaper bunker rush) but 2v2 is inherently unfair in that regards and VERY dependent on your partner.

 

2v2 is a cheesefest and not balanced at all especially for Zerg that has the least amount of cheese available (only 6-7-8 pool rush).