Zerg Strategy Discussion

so what do you guys do now with the roach nerf?

sadly I now resorted to spine crawlers, zerg/banelings, then fast lair -> burrow, fast hydras then spire to mass mutas with broodlords, and i try to flush it out mid game instead of the usual roachling early game harassment, i'm still having the feeling that there'll be a crunch time re: supplies mid-late game because of the roach nerf (supply 2->1)

 

Has anyone tried this build order:
12 hatchery (to get to 12 without building overlords put 2 drones to build extractors, build 2 new drones and cancel extractors)
then 11 pool
and 10 overlord

This one gives you a hatchery very soon after having pool completed and extra larvae for troops/drones.

 

I've been doing pretty much the same. If I'm against toss and it looks like they are going robo bay or stargate, i FE, get some crawlers, and tech up to mutas. if it looks like they have stalker heavy, mainly just speedlings and hydras. I don't build roaches at all as it fks up my drone production unless I decide to waste 2 larvae and get 2 overlords at a time just to avoid supply blocking myself.

Against terran i usually try to bust wall w/ banelings, but if not it's pretty similar.. FE, some crawlers, muta harass if they are light on AA, if not i try to mass hydras, speedlings, and infestors.

 

I really think hydra should be back 75/25 though to compensate for the roach nerf, or they can just return the armor and life regen + burrow speed of roaches

adapted for a while, turtling with banelings/speedlings+banelings then on to mass mutas XD

 

I don't think that is efficient, but no I haven't tried it to check.

Based on memory, I seem to recall that 11/10 droning (1 fake morph extractor) leaves you with no available larvae. So going 12/10 would mean having to wait to generate the larva for the 12th drone (since you need to fake morph both at the same time to bring yourself down to 8/10).

I still prefer 11/10 ---> Overlord ---> 14/18 ---> Pool

This is maximum efficiency for larvae consumption in that you use up all your larva from the start (going 11/10) and then just as your Overlord pops you reach a 3 larvae queue again.

There might be some merit I suppose in working in an earlier pool on small maps for defensive purposes, but I still don't think the BO you suggested is optimal for it.

edit: Note the 14/18 build above is for an early 2nd hatchery too. Normally I'd go 16/18 ---> 2nd hatchery (15/18) ---> Queen as pool pops. Then depending on the need for scouts defense I work in extractor/spore crawler to make room for 4-6 lings. Make another Ovie due before your 1st Queen pops and start a 2nd Queen to support both hatcheries.

 

Been doing 14 pool almost all of my games.
Just extractor trick once, then make a Overlord, and then as soon as it pops three drones you are at 14. Pool, drone up to 16, make an extractor, drone, overlord, queen once pool is up, and you can get a Lair right after the queen pops if your timing is right. I usually just use Spine Crawlers to defend and a small force of Lings to deny expanding early and maybe to dash in and see what's up after my first Overlord has to hightail it out of their base. Once I feel comfortable that I won't just fold at the sight of an attack I expand, power drones really hard to get my expansion up, and play the game from there.

As for the Roach nerf, I agree that they did need a nerf in some form, but I am not too unsure about it. I was liking it to be honest at first because I hate that every ZvZ you pretty much NEED to go Roaches, and hopefully this changes that, but it essentially makes me have half the meat shield I would late game, which is a huge disadvantage. I think if they are going to keep it at 2 supply they should buff it's actual stats a bit, at least making it match a Zealot, which they cost more then if you put a high value on gas, which you should as Zerg. While Protoss can make Zealots all game long due to the zero gas cost, most Zerg will have to refrain from making Roaches if they need to make any gas heavy units at all, and use Lings as their meat shield, and Lings pretty much instantly die late game if your opponent has even one or two Collosi or Hellions.

 

True, Arc. Hydralisks are going to become a large subject for Zerg soon. They just die way too easily... even when I was 2-2 upgrades, they still died just as fast. They seem to only be good vs Air. And I hate how slow they move now!

I haven't played SC2 in about 3 days now, and now that I see this Roach nerf, I can see Zerg really struggling now. I used to keep using an early Roach heavy build that won me many, many games. Now I'm not so sure how effective it's going to be.

 

Yeah, Hydralisks do just kind of bend over to any force of equal size. They really do excel in taking out small groups of big units though.

Early roach builds shouldn't be too effected by the change, you will just have a couple less. Where it really comes into effect is late game when you are pushing 200.

 

apparently 12 hatchery works without waiting for an extra larvae, try it, 2 hatcheries and 2 queens early game is a great anti reaper rush strat cause of the 2 queens, it is also a nice start for speedling baneling strat now that roaches are long gone

Empryon, Ragels, I know right, they should give back the hydra speed boost, and let them turn to lurkers again if they aren't gonna do something about the roaches, hydras cost now is unfair compared to its life for god's sake, marauders do better with more life and cheaper cost, they have an ability and they're too easy to make unlike hydras, what's up with that?

both lings, infestors, mutas, corruptors and broodlords keep the zerg fire burning, but hell, how the hell are you gonna hold with queens and lings before you tech up to the more viable zerg units. And may I just say that the ultralisk is the ultimate sucky unit in-game -_-

 

Due to the Roach nerf (Roaches are now 2 supply instead of 1) I have made changes to my strategy and this works very well. It's a harassment strategy that you can put you in the lead by killing economy and/or buying you time to tech and expand.

...................
10 pool
9 overlord
11 drone
11-14 zerglings
14 queen
16 drone
17 drone
17 overlord
17 extractor
16-17 drone
18/26 begins... more lings for scouting.
....................
@20-22 supply, begin your natural expansion.
@100 gas, begin tech for your lair.
@any% lair, create a roach warren.
@100% lair, create your hydralisk den.
Saturate your expo and your main with workers, spawn an additional queen for larva.
You will have incredible income. Make another hatchery and another queen.
I can confirm that this is a 3hatch Roach/Hydra build. I've done it and I've been winning several games with this.

DONT upgrade Zergling speed.
DO upgrade Roach speed.
DO upgrade Hydra range.
DO upgrade Missile and Armor.

Always do keep scouting, make a spine crawler if you must. There has been one game where I couldn't expand until 26 supply due to keeping up with the other players army. If that happens, don't worry, keep playing towards getting Roaches and Hydras with their needed upgrades.

If you notice a Protoss going Colossus, you will have to make a Spire. While the Spire is being created, if you want a lot of Mutas, wait the duration until the Spire is complete and spam Mutalisks to counter the Colossus. Mutalisks are a pain in the opponents neck if you are able to hold down your fort until you can spawn them.

I notice in Platinum that Zerg also seem to get Roaches, Hydras and Mutalisks. Mutalisks do nothing but harass in my experiences in recent games. I also do not see a lot of Roach heavy builds anymore. This nerf is a good thing if you MIX units up in your army. Hydras work very well with Roaches in the front line. Against any race, really...

Against Terran or Zerg, Infestors are just extremely valuable with their Fungal Growth.

 

Tested and as expected I don't think you gain (and in fact lose out) by doing this.

You're right, you don't have to wait for the extra larvae. I had that backwards.

However, you have to wait far too long for the extra resources to do it imo, and don't reach 14 drones any faster since you still need the ovie (which you also build later incidentally, thus getting drones 13 and 14 later than 11/10 build).

I didn't sit down and number crunch things out to actual numbers, but just from what I saw trying it out it seems like a bad idea to do 12/10 instead of 11/10. /shrug

 

Please help a starcraft noob

I'm having problems in ZvP games, more specifically if the protoss spam zealots early game it seems no matter what i do i lose.
If i put up spine crawlers, he got me cornered and will out-economy me
Roaches no longer seem that viable early game
If i try to tech up he will steamroll my base before i have a chance to do anything
Same problem if i try to FE
I tried countering with some zerglings, but as soon as he got stalkers/sentries he could kill them with ease

Please give me some tips, how should i counter this?
I'm guessing scouting early, but then what?

 

banelings bro, banelings

 

Just keep a few Banelings around. They will wipe out any Zealots he has and Zerglings are really good against Stalkers if you can get a surround on them.

 

against protoss i say speedlings + banelings would finish the game before 10mins if you don't plan to use roaches, just keep the gas going with double extractors so that you can have groups of banelings which are very much what you need, + speedlings vs. stalkers and cannon fodders for the banelings if he walled up with photons

 

Thanks for the suggestions, greatly appreciated
I recently tried a couple of games using banelings and I have to say I really like them. If a couple of them survives until late game they also make excellent mines with burrow

 

I think you missed the point of my post. Point was to get a hatchery before pool so to have a hatchery and pool by the time most other players have their pool finished. Yes they beat you in economy but you can beat them in troop production, as well as surpass them in economy if they do not decide to rush you and you can produce many, many drones.

Am I the only one that is kind of angry that turning the Overlord into Overseer costs you supply limit?

They weakened the Zerg from sc1 by removing that the Overlord can see invisible units and you need tier 2 and additional money to get that ability. And then you lose 8 supply. So basically to get an observer type unit (that is weaker then both Terran and protoss versions) you need to spend 150 crystals and 100 gas (cost of morph + new Overlord). I just do not think this is worth it. Maybe if the Overseer could still transport units with the upgrade for Overlords researched...

Lets compare them:
Protoss Observer basically has the same abilities as Overseer. Flies, moves about the same speed (and better with upgrade), and due to its invisibility lets the Protoss scout the base same as that morphling EXCEPT the enemy gets no chance to see you (well slim chance as the observer leaves a small ripple when he moves). Also experienced players will notice the mophling and kill it.

Terran Raven is similar to Overseer as it is not invisible, lacks a scouting ability, but has a large arsenal of useful abilities and can be fast and easily repaired if damaged.

 

nah i'm with you, overseers are ****ty period. but needed nonetheless, the developers are just making the zerg suffer more

 

I finally have a day off... I'm glad to see a lot of discussion.

I agree about the Overseers. I see them as an issue in Starcraft 2. It costs 100 minerals for an Overlord, and then 150/100 to morph them into an Overseer. I really only make of them per game. If one dies, I make one more... you never know if you're going to get Bancheesed or DTd. They are way too expensive, in my opinion... and Changelings, great scouts, but a good player can just attack+move and gun it down. From what I have noticed is that your army will gun down a changeling if they are attack+moving.

(more to come)

 

sorry if this has been addressed guys, but I am an aspiring zerg player and even in the bronze league I am getting my overmind *** whooped. Every zerg vs zerg game I have played, I have taken your advice and gone "whoever has more zerglings" and ive won every game. But with terran and protoss I get owned, as they always wall in. What should I do?