Zerg seem worse in SC2.

Thats quite an assumpition coming from someone who has never even played the game or knows the current development state of the game. I would like to hear why Zerg are "underpowered" in starcraft 2 other than "they aren't like they are in starcraft 1."

Personally, I think your just trying to find something to complain about because from the information we have been given so far there is no way to incidate the Zerg or underpowered or worse because of the overlord not having detection.

 

The zerg over all are seemig to be under powered toward the other races in SC2 stated in interviews all around YouTube by Dustin Browder a lead disgner of SC2.

So we looked not very far and didn't have to come up with randomly the Zerg are crap. Whitch when u think about it, the Zerg should be able to quickly own the other races with not as many new units as the BRs show and not struggle much at all, now with better stackig and like selecting a small section of ur army mutas are going to be stacked in the dozens, especialy easily with the queens larvae. So that muta harrases should be like 300 times as effeictive.

 

I still think Zerg are sh*tty so far; NOTHING they received is that game-breaking or even interesting, in my opinion. Sure, they may be balanced and decent (I sort of doubt that too), but there's nothing persuading me to continue playing the race.

The new mechanics and units Terran and Protoss received are much more interesting, and really change the way the races will be played. There's no new feature for the two races that makes me think "Eh, I rather just have the original, this idea sucks d*ck" but that's basically the case for almost every Zerg change; They're extremely uninspired looking to me so far, both technically and artistically.

 

i for the most part agree with u. but i like the Zerg then most and i still think that i could anoy my friend when it comes out with a few random things he woulnt; expect.

but for the most part they seem really crappy and uninspiring, im just not ready to give up hope that Blizz won't do a complete overhaul on the Zerg. maybe I could start a thread or some body else start one, and we could all agree on units and designs that we thing would look cool and email lists of different changes that we would like to see to the Zerg to Blizz .

that might help if we g3t enought people's thoughts and a really F...ing big email to blizz .

 

You guys are nuts, there's a lot of zerg units I love. The corruptor is my all time favorite unit in the game ... an anti air unit that can infest enemy air units when it kills 'em ... pretty awesome idea for the zerg. The brood lord is neato as well, I hope though it has a fast attack so it can spawn massive amounts of broodlings. The queen too with its ability to double larvae capacity in hatcheries. The overseer is looking nice as hell with its cool abilities. I love the spore cloud idea for it, not too crazy about the chameleon, but if it keeps transfusion from the queen it is gonna be niiiiice. Great idea allowing zerglings to mutate into the banelings. The roach too is alright, although not the greatest thing to the zerg arsenal; doesn't seem like it will be very useful late game. The only unit I am not too thrilled is the infestor, I feel it needs some ability replacements. Overall the zerg have some interesting mechanics I feel, and with a few statistic adjustments and careful tier placement for units and buildings, the swarm will be in top shape to compete with the other races. About the other races, I think the idea for boosting their economies should be scrapped and everything will be much better. The golden ore is enough for resource boostage.

Somethings I hope I will see for the zerg other then changes to the infestor is the deep tunnel ability back on the queen if it isn't already, hydralisks to tier 1.5, art make over for roaches and moved to tier 2, infestor tier 3, and some other things I can't remember.

 

i have to actually agree and dissagree with red lazer. the zerg as a whole are FAR FAR FAR better then they ever were in the original. FAR better. but as a SC2 race and comparing them to the other 2 races they dont seem as good. toss and terran seem to have gotten so much more things then the zerg and they just seem alot more interesting to play. especially the terran who has SO MUCH tech that its just unbeleivable. if anything, ud think toss would have more tech since they are the more advanced race but meh w/e. but the zerg seem to be missing out. i think it was even mentioned by one of the devs themselves that the zerg were lacking compared to the other units.

and from what i can gather from all the vids so far i really think its because they dont have much late game tech. the have alot of early game things and there very strong early game, but come mid/late game they start falling apart pretty badly. but im sure alot of things will change so we just have to wait for beta.

 

Don't have time to stay and chat right now, back at school, yada, yada, yada... But I've gotta say I disagree with the whole story about the Zerg's mid to late game tech. It's true that Zerg look as though they've got a very strong early game, which they're supposed to, what with being Zerg and everything, but mid to late game brings them so much more. Until then, they've only got Zerglings, Banelings, Hydralisks and the odd Queen.

To me, Zerg gets its diversity from the mid game onwards. Overall, the set up is very similar to in SarCraft1, with the Mutalisk and Aerial caster remaining at the second tier, and the Ultralisk and Guardian replacement remaining at the third, then with the Lurker being moved back and both the Devourer replacement and new Ground caster being moved forwards, not forgetting the addition of the Roach, too.

Basically, their mid game onwards has just been shuffled, and improved.

Personally, I'm quite glad that Zerg was the army that retained the most of its original units. Being the insectoid alien race that they are, it's much harder to come up with not only new abilities or mechanics, but new suitable designs and everything. In essence, it's easier to create a Terran or Protoss team than it is to create a Zerg one. Trying to add to and diversify the Zerg runs the risk of resorting to gimmicks. To give an example, just look through the fan suggestions for new Zerg units. Blizzard, in my opinion, has actually been really clever in retaining mostly old mechanics and improving them, instead of going wide out and wacky. Of the new mechanics, such as the Roach, the simplicity is honestly outstanding. Zerg are all about being small and weak, but hard to get rid of. The Roach, is small and weak, but hard to get rid of. Seriously, it's a tank that's got about a hundred health. It honestly can't be done with any other unit in the game, but with the Roach, no problem. Seriously, it's fits perfectly with the Zerg design philosophy. Compare that to the numerous gigantic centipedesque wall-climbers that have to be killed in 'segments' and can embed themselves in the ground to create their own walls suggestions. Which seems more worthy of being in the swarm? Similarly, the Corrupter and reworking of both the Infested Terrans to Banelings and the Queen from the old Aerial caster are sublime. The same applies to the Brood Lord and Infestor as well. While nothing is a particular stand out, like the Thor and Mothership were for the Terran and Protoss, everything fits together, and after all, Zerg aren't at all about game breaking units. They're about game breaking numbers instead, and one thing that the new designed particularly encapsulate is that ability to spawn a great army, and not just be relying on a couple of powerhouse units.

 

I agree with IHG but i can't agree with everyone... can I?

anyway, im not completely happy with the Zerg, infact i think its more or less of the new units that i don't like.

Brood lord = always like the Gardian and now you can mix lings in the attack force for no cost.
Roach = idea is great but i think it needs some work, it needs a damge boost or something.
Corruptor = great idea, and i love how it was exicuted.
Queen = a big difference from SC1, still a good unit but has had some rolls thrown around, (its a super unit, no its a super base defence unit. no its not unique give them as many as they want. ok forget all of that make it the small fast defence and creep spreading helper, and give it the ability to mass larvae at a hatchery so that they can spawn an army at max size in no time at all.)
Lurker = mostly old but has come back with seige range that will be very helpful.
Ultralisk = has come back Great HP now (not that i think it needed more) and does around the damge you might think a 3-4 story monster from Sci Fiction would do.
Infester = no the greatest in the Zerg arsenal, but its the first unit to basicly remain permenently cloaked and the first Zerg unit to move under ground.
Mutalisk = back the same as normal but can now stack several dozen at a time instead of eleven.
Zergling = great come back now makes baneling, plus gathers together and attack as one.
Banelings = great idea, love it, so many strats that could be used with them.
Hydra = pretty much the same only now base damge (YAY!) and has a bonus to air (!?)

 

"Roach = idea is great but i think it needs some work, it needs a damge boost or something."

Blizzard has decided to make it a Tank and has moved it to a higher Tier, thats something

 

Yes, it seems the Roach has been able to reach a stronger role or in fact the idea was strong enough to be that way anyway.

 

Maybe we just haven't seen a real good zerg player that can pull off the victory, against the other races. Yeah, we all know that BRs are planned ahead matches so basically that doesn't prove the zerg can't overcome it. But the problem still exists that the zerg are somehow lacking variety on their early to mid game tactics compared to terrans' and protoss' flexibility.

Watching battle report 3, players can definitely say that the Zerg lost only due to poor micro, but far from that there are also other points that statistically shows how the match turned one sided. And first of all and most important I believe is definitely:

*Resource Gathering - yes and from that small aspect, it turned down one of zergs best asset against other races. Compared against the Terran and Protoss, the swarm did not receive any new mechanic to benefit themselves besides getting the queen a larva production skill that really doesn't par on with Drop pods and Dark pylons pluses. That ultimately results for zerg to stumble in the race for harvest that they once dominated 11 years ago of our time and counting. Now, I'm not saying that the drop pod and dark pylon idea be scrapped, but rather, the zerg should get something for compensation too, as this problem will likely only lead to an assumed lost against the harvest race and thus resulting to an average production speed which is definitely not what zerg is about. Another thing to mention too is the presence of 2 vespene geysers in one location, this kind of maps will always be an advantage against the zerg as the other 2 races wouldn't opt immediately for an expansion if they are planning on teching up ahead. The best solution right now that I can say is to eliminate that 2nd geyser on the main base.

*VS armored - so what does the zerg have from early to mid against that protoss player that continuously pumped up his number of units? the way BR3 was played out, it was actually quite interesting in a depressing way... (that may sound mixed up lol) anyway think of it this way. The Roach user lost to the Stalkers because of poor micro, combination, and the favored armor class type. Now consider this, the roach almost won even if he isn't suppose to take out an armored type enemy, wouldn't you think that fact is scary? Even if the roach loss, those other players certainly knew what was necessary and realized a roaches potential to become a force to reckoned with, it's just a matter of execution. The roach is designed to be an anti biological type unit which means that it will be rendered almost useless against the protoss, but still it was able to propose a threat. Anyway, that scenario will probably be abused for as long as zerg doesn't come up with an answer. Some may have already thought ahead of it on how to handle stalkers in a ZvP match, but for now I'll leave it at that.

*Support units - Queen, Infester, Overseer..... I just can't visualize how valuable they are right now, compared to the other races support units. Surely the queen can save you money for making another hatchery but what good is a larva spam skill against the other races new harvest mechanic? It still falls down that the other 2 races will possibly still harvest much faster than a zerg player does. Infester.... ahhh, I just can't go down all over it again as everybody knows that the skills aren't holding tight to be on its own. And the Overseer? I might have just "overlooked" at it LOL but I can't see yet its advantage. Basing on what happened to BR3, what would have the zerg done if he knew 10-15 seconds ago (range + time guestimate) that an incoming phase prism warp threat is to arrive? would he be able to defend his base?

*Pressure game - this feat the zerg was most known for has almost turned out backwards against them watching BRs and seeing mechanic updates for the terran and protoss. There are lots of them that seem to point out against the zerg i.e. (planet fortress vs muta, zerg mass production vs warp ins and much more.) I can't blame the other two races for being anti-zerg specialists since we know who the antagonist is after all. And yet one of the zergs trumps seems to be now, equalized by the other two.

To sum it up, the zerg did become more powerful here in SC2 and yes they've got new mechanics as well, but apparently it is not good enough to match against the new era like a fight between Capt. America and Iron-man.
@Itza - you stated it was clever that the Zerg retained its format from SC1, but wouldn't you say that it might be one of the reasons that this various problems start about? And yes, an overhaul is not an answer but for now that's what I can see.

 

I dont understand your whining about Zerg's Econ. Without going into depth I just want to say: More larves -> More drones. Zergs problem are often their lack of larva's, not their lack of minerals. But I think the Protoss's and Terran's Econ-abillities are too strong.

Armored: You are right that Zerg doesnt have a very big ammount of direct countering until they get Lurkers, but is it needed? Zerglings easily counter Stalkers in big ammounts, and Banelings are effective against Marines too, Hydralisks being lower Tier counter Air-armored easily ofcourse. I dont see a problem with Zerg's counter against armored units, its not direct, but Zerglings and Banelings are fine earlygame and midgame

Support-units: take a look at the abilltiies again. Spore Cloud for example looks very usefull, and so does the MC-abilltiy. And at the phaseprism question, I cant tell you. But I can tell you that the Zerg player was already busted at that time in the game. He was behind in econ from the point at where he decided to mass Roaches but didnt suceed in pressuring the Protoss. Mutalisks and Hydralisks are very effective against Air though - But drops have always been a problem if you dont have a lot of scourges (which are cut out ), so Zerg is weak against drops, but you cant have everything right? Every race has a weakness.

Pressure game:

Im just saying a few words:

Siege:
Broodlords look more effective than the Gaurdian; Lurkers got siegerange.
Raids:
Mutalisks easier stack; Banelings; Sporecloud;

This is my opinion ofcourse. I think BETA will make a lot of things more clear, hopefully in my direction.

 

1. The fact that you are still purchasing an extra amount to get another set of drones for compensation is already a minus compared to a stable resource farming upgrades from the other two races. Maybe you'll understand it better if we go counting?? Lets have a mini example

1 probe = 5 mineral
1 scv = 5 mineral
1 drone = 5 mineral

warp 1 dark pylon and activate skill = energy cost for price of continuous speed gathering
call 1 drop pod from structure = instant extra workers for free amount of mineral
hatch 1 queen + larva skill = more drones for mining but +supply & possibly costs more than the other 2

Basically the long run is what's obviously a problem here, as the presumed sample says its highly likely that zerg would only be on par with gathering and not above the other two unlike when it was in brood war. And also please consider that I stated the effect of the 2nd geyser which also threats a problem for the zerg.

Zerglings and Banelings.... you definitely hit the spot, that is what I already stated in my pharagraph that the zerg player did not use the proper combination to handle them so,.

You did admit the point that zerg is weak to drop ins. And I also stated the possibility if the zerg player did spotted the incoming prism threat, could he have pulled out something if he was to say on par with econ growth?? Now maybe we can see a baneling "jump" upgrade lol

Mutalisks easy stack doesnt matter to terrans anymore now that they various anti airs. The protoss didnt have much problems with mutas compared to terrans from SC1 and if the Phoenix overload wasn't scrapped I just cant imagine how nasty that could've been.

Anyways those things you mentioned in siege is mostly not on early tier mode where it matters most. But perhaps this would lead to a whole new gameplay style for the zerg being a late-bloomer type race. I don't really know but the way it is now, sounds definitely like still a work in progress.

 

1. Dont you understand me? Im saying the econ is fine for Zerg, but that the dark pylon and the drop pod is OP.

Mutalisks are still usefull I think, but its a matter of taste. The whole idea of mutas is to force the opponent to stay at home.

New gameplay style? perhaps, but not a completly new IMO.

Lets wait for BETA before discussing anymore, its a waste of time.

 

Pfft! Beta Shmeta ( LOL ) it's not like we can't use our imaginary assumption for what the game development is, right now. Well you should at least understand that zergs economy shouldn't just be FINE but rather more than what the protoss and zerg normally yields. There isn't much that we can say about the zerg right now, but hopefully we get good answers this august.

 

I think the dark pylon boosting the economy for protoss needs to be cut out, it really disrupts a lot of the balance me thinks. The mule too for terran, these are both weak mechanics. If that won't be done, maybe blizzard might allow drones to move fast on creep like other zerg ground units? Of coarse I don't think that will happen, so the best solution may be just to remove the mule and dark pylon mechanics for the other races. I think if that is done, the races will be a lot more on par with each other, the terran and protoss have too many advantages as is =\

 

about the gysers.

I have heard you can only harvest a few hundred gas before it has to cool down (hence the gas "stations" being red) so its you're responebility to take them off of the gas after a while.

i think that this mechanic should be scrapped along with the mineral harvesting boosters.

i thought that the Mineral and Gas harvesting for the races was fine in SC and BW, why change that now?
you're just made a new game and you're going to make it harder on yourself with balence. wow

 

Thats a very old mechanic that, as far as I know, was removed (and then the drop pods and drak pylons were added).

"i thought that the Mineral and Gas harvesting for the races was fine in SC and BW, why change that now?
you're just made a new game and you're going to make it harder on yourself with balence. wow"
How many times do you want me to tell you it??? IT ISNT THE SAME! The new abillities added in sc2 has made macro eassier for the players, so they are adding these abillities to make sc2 be more like sc1.

 

1) where u saying the guysers where an old mech?

2) I realize they cannot be counted as the same game but come on. Everyone can see that the Economy has only been a huge punch in the stomach for the Zerg. and its being thrown by 2 races at the same time.

i don't see how making SC2 have mineral crap (other then the yellow crystals) that only make it more confusing. I mean now (for the toss and terran) oh crap i have to keep spells going/make mules alot and make an army and harras the enemy at the same time. oh crap.

(Zerg side) Sh*t, they have twice the amount of units i have all in army, not counting there workers... oh Sh*t im screwed T_T

 

Im dropping it sorry. You dont want to listen, then its fine.