Zerg seem worse in SC2.

@IHG: i think you misunderstood me. i know the zerg as a whole is very much stronger then the previous zerg. i was talking about each individual unit and comparing them to the previous zerg counterparts. if you look at it you will clearly see that the defiler is stronger then the infestor where as all other individual units the SC2 counter parts are stronger. the infestor is the only single unit in SC2 that is weaker then in SC1. no matter how you think it, dark swarm is better then neural parasite for the zerg. no matter how u think it a 300 dmg plauge is better then a 100 dmg plauge. no matter how u think it, consume is probably the single most handy skill of ANY spellcaster unit in the game.

as for infested marines, we discussed this already... my mind hasnt changed, i still think there a bit imba as a SC2 unit. but we already came to the decision that all that can change easily. also, im am NOT saying give dark swarm/consume/plauge 300 back to the zerg. im just merely pointing out that the defiler was stronger then the infestor. and i cant see how anyone can not notice that really.


also about the terran, yes they buildings can lift but how does that hurt any underground network? im sure they can easily tunnel and spread that network to the next base of operations they choose. from what i figue, the INGAME distance of a natural expo is extremly far away. probaly hundreds of miles (even tho from our perspective it only takes a few seconds to get to that expo). and the length of time it takes to build a command center or fly a command center to expo, why not make another underground network in the process?

 

Perhaps I should have quoted a bit more of that article.

I trust that I don't need to explain how the exact same thing applies to Plague. So, as I said previously;

You cannot compare the two Plagues. Plague was in StarCraft1, and Plague is in StarCraft2. That's where it ends. It's not as though if the Defiler were to make a return, then the Defiler's Plague would deal more damage. It's the exact same ability.

And you definitely can't say that no matter how you think of it, Dark Swarm is better than Neural Parasite. In certain situations it may be, but also in certain situations, Neural Parasite is better than Dark Swarm. One of those situations we've seen in the third Battle Report. The fact remains that;

So it's not even really mentionable in terms of whether it's stronger in StarCraft2. Seriously, it's apples and oranges.

As for Consume, it's a trade off. While it's an extremely useful skill that increases the frequency at which you can cast abilities, it also reduces versatility. The Infestor can be much more versatile in having that extra spell. And again, you're forgetting that it's much more of an opportunist in being able to move and cast spells while Burrowed. In fact, going back to Plague, with the stats balanced for StarCraft2, and the improved usability of the Infestor, it'd be much more powerful than in StarCraft1.

As for the underground network, I was saying that there is nothing but flat ground when Terran buildings Lift Off, which means there are no underground passages or network.

 

Thank you for that spelling lession and what have i been telling people all along? Blizzard doesnt give a st about what someone has to say thats why your not helping devolp the game so just in case you forget

 

i do not see how that deals with damage unless im missing something. i see what your getting at, that your are able to plague alot more units in sc2 because of the new pathing then in sc1, but thats what consume was for. you can still plague multiple control groups of units and buildings as long as you consume. a high templar cannot do that because they cant keep regenerating there energy to keep storming. so its completely diffrent in that regard. but to me plague with consume in sc1 is the same as plague with better pathing and increased clumping in sc2... you can still get a entire army plagued in sc1 with correct consume/micro control.


and still about that BR how can dark swarm not have been usefull in that situation? almost all of the units in that battle were ranged atkers against lings and banelings... and dark swarm last for a full 60 mins compared to 10 seconds on neural parasite. not only that but i hate going off of BR because they seem just to rigged and unrealistic. you can even tell in the BR3 when the commentator basically saying strategies before the players even did them. like with the pheonix thing or w/e its called lifted the queen off the ground to kill it. commentator knew he was going to do that before the player even did it. so i just dont like to compare or use BRs for examples but if i have to i have to i guess.


since this seems like a battle of mechanics with you arguing that plague is stronger in SC2 because the infestor is able to burrow and the units are more clumped together, then i am saying that consume made both dark swarm and plague alot more powerful seeing as you could use the skills an infinite amount of times compared to what u can do with the infestor skills in SC2.

i am not trying to compare the 2 games as a whole. i am comparing 2 single units. a unit that you can say evolved from the first (since that what zerg do anyway.) its only natural to compare 2 counterparts of something.

 

It could be overpowered with certain situations (could!) and I thought in BR3 they were facing zealots and a couple colossi plus like 2 nullifiers. The zealots would rip the lings to sheds and would only give protection from the colossi at most. Plus if they had used swarm and NP then thy would contradict each other.

And comparing the infester of now with the defiler of then with consume is BS. The only reason the defiler had the consume was because the spells didn't over lap. Such as darkswarm casting two in the same area would do nothing and the same with plague. With the consume now they would spit out ashiz load of marines they would be puking there brainz out. And they would NP half of the enemy.

That's way to overpowered because you could run into the enemys base and have the infesters swallow eachother and start to spit out Sh*t everywhere and mind control all of the enemys reinforcements. Plus that would just suk to be another race and be humiliated like that that happens you better evacuate and pray to whoever you GOd is that he will save just enought troops for your survival. But that would be GG at that point.

 

well i had thought it was 2 colossus a few nullifies and a few stalkers but i guess i have to look again.

also, darkswarm nor plauge was used in that way... u basically used dark swarm as stepping stone/ladder into a enemy base. using darkswarm for cover for the lurkers then using consume on a few lings and place another dark swarm right above it. darkswarm still worked even if they are multiple darkswarms on the field, but u dont stack a darkswarm because that would just be extremely stupid and serve no purpose... so i dont really see your point with that since the reason you gave for defiliers having consume in there first place is because there spells didnt overlap o.o? who over laps darkswarm... like i said it serves no purpose since what you want to do is set darkswarm right above the first and NOT right on top of the first.

plague did not stack but it got the job done most of the time just from casting it one time. but IF needed you can always wait untill the 300 dmg is dealt (if the unit is even still alive) and if the unit still has a big chunk of HP left then you can cast it again and the effect will continue. im not entirely sure on this since i never rly casted plague on a unit/units more then once but ya. in sc1 the only thing that has above 300 HP anyway is ultras and BCs i think so IF plague was stackable in sc1 you would not need to.


but again, you guys seriously misunderstand what i am saying.. i am NOT saying give consume to infestor. i am NOT saying give darkswarm to infestor. and i am NOT saying retur plauge to its original 300 dmg. what i am saying is that defiler is stronger where as infestor is weaker... let me put it this way, if you were to put the defiler from SC1 into SC2 or basicaly give the infestor the same exact skills as the defiler wouldnt that be extremly powerful in SC2 compared to what the infestor has now? you guys even said it your self that darkswarm with banelings is very overpowered and that consume will be very over powered in SC2. now, lets look at the other units as an example. if you put the zergling of SC1 into SC2 that zergling would be very weak now wouldnt it? putting the ultra in SC2 from Sc1 that ultra would be very weak wouldnt it? that is what i am trying to get at, the infestor is a weaker version of the defiler where EVERY SINGLE SC2 unit in SC2 is stonger then there unit counterparts in SC1.....

every single unit got some buff or advantage from its SC1 counterpart but the infestor seem to have gotten the short end of the stick. zealot in SC2>zealot in SC1. marine in SC2>marine in SC1. zergling in SC2>zergling in SC1. and this goes for all units. but when you get down to infestor its Infestor in SC2<defiler in SC1...

hell even the High templar is STILL stronger then its SC1 counterpart even tho psi storm was seemingly nerfed. and it was not even nerfed that bad, a 30 dmg diffrence everyone can get use to that. + the psi storm seems to have a hella bigger area of effect then in sc1 from the screenshots i seen of it. its like seriously huge... actually how much dmg did psi storm do in sc1? cuz im seeing that it does 112 on the wiki so if thats true it actually got a dmg buff in sc2? but i remember seeing it did 150 dmg, so im confused about that...

 

Hell i prefer the new spore cloud over dark swarm. Its potential for mind****ing is awesome.

 

If you ask me, saying Plague hasn't been nerfed is complete bullsh*t. It doesn't matter if one is for SC1 and the other SC2; frankly, units have more life in SC2, so how isn't a 100 damage Plague weaker than a 300 damage one? Plague can't kill units anyway, so what the sh*t?

And saying Dark Swarm doesn't fit into SC2 is the biggest load of bullsh*t yet. How doesn't it? That's like saying "Eh, Zerg melee units don't need cover anymore, obviously the ranged capabilities of all the other races were nerfed into oblivion so hard that your Zerglings are defensive powerhouses and don't need that Dark Swarm crutch anymore." or "Eh, Dark Swarm would only be detrimental to your Hydras/Roaches in ranged vs. ranged fights, since you know, Zerg ranged units are known for their individual power and the race isn't built around the concept of strength in numbers or anything." or "Pshh, look at how weak and ****ty those new Battlecruisers are! Defensive Matrix, pshh. Increased damage that doesn't overkill, pshh. More hit points, pshh. I'll just tank that **** with my Hydralisks in open-ground!"

 

LOL redlazer. And ballistixz were you taking to me? All I was pointing out was if consume was in SC2 on the infester it would be overpwered and the reason for it being in SC1 was because the defilers abilitys DID NOT stack.

 

I like every unit for the zerg race, except for the infestor. The neural parasite ability is cool, I just wish it would give an infested art makeover on the units affected to give it an even more zergy feel. I also wish the plauge, and spawn infested marine abilities were scrapped and replaced with something brand spanking new.

 

ya thats exactly my point lol... since you admitted it just now yourself it means that defilers are stonger then infestors. if any of the abilities from the defiler was on infestor even just one if them the infestor would be over powered. but that is not the case with ANY other SC1 unit. and i still dont get your point with consume itself on the defiler. there abilities didnt stack, but they did not need to stack... so i can see that as a legit reason for the defilers having consuming because like i said before even if they DID stack you would not need to stack them at all. stacking them would be a waste of the skill since ALOT of units in SC1 have exactly 300 HP or below so plague would almost always do enought dmg without having to stack it IF it was stackable... and stacking darkswarm, well that speaks for itself. why would u stack dark swarm to begin with if it was indeed stackable =/? so sorry if i misunderstand or something but i cant see that as a legit reason to why defilers have consume lol.


also, i really can not possibly see how people cant see that plauge is nerfed. and i cannot see that such a huge nerf of plague is balanced when every singe unit in SC2 basically got a HP boost. whether units are clumped together more or not that does not count as any buff of any sort. plauging a BC with plauge thats 100 dmg off of it. w00 hoo it still has 500 HP left... o but w8, a SCV can repair that 100 HP easily so its back to 600 HP again... plauging a group of marines? yay, medivac is in the air so there right back at the HP they began with. and plauging other zergs? well the roach speaks for itself... ultras will just laugh at it, and everything else will be healed by transfusion. it really does not make sense for ppl to say that a 100 dmg plauge is better then a 300 dmg one...

 

I don't thnk people are sayng it's better there just saying it balenced for rght now (I personaly thnk that it's just an ability to get people talking while they can get rid of it and replace all of the spells with new crap.)

And I was saying in SC1 consume was fine because the abilitys did not over lap thereofre making it a balence thing and not making you be able to puke out an army of marines or something(or broodling all of the terrans crap) that's why it was in the defiler and no other unit. I feel plague is just an ability to hold the croud back so they don't get pounded while they think of a new ability.

Ok and sure I'll say it "The defiler would be ocerpwered in SC2" and the infester is only good because it can run around undetected and cause the enemy to feak out with an attack of marines at his mineral lines while you plague his troops and come in with all you're might and kill everything and oh look GG.

Now taste defiler wrath!
wander toward enemy with a bunch of lings cast some DS around suk up units and do it again......
Boring!!! ZZZzzZzzzZZZzzZ

Plus think about muta harassing workers. Maybe bring an overseer in and cloud thing the area and unless he went air units his workers are pretty much screwed (run invincable SCV's!!!) and tada a new strat. And much more fun to pull off.

The last thing the Zerg need is an old unit that brings back the same strats. To me the Zerg need a little sugar, spice and everything nice and NOT OLD CrAP that bring back old strats. Not to mention the Terran don't have any melée attackers anymore. (it least I'm pretty sure they don't) so the Terran would be screwed when the Zerg get DS. (if they did... I don't want them to also seems old)

 

idk, i still dont see how its balanced really unless im seriously missing something. all units in SC2 seem overall hella more powerfull and buffed up. medivacs are overall better then medics so they can heal an entire army if it was plagued in notime seeing as how the medivac is a air unit so it will have no problem getting stuck behind units in the middle of a battle or stray off somewhere or something. units have alot of HP so 100 dmg will barely hurt them and most can easily get that 100 hp that was lost back. + plauge does not even kill a target so a unit/units can be left alive to heal or buildings repaired/shields regenerated.

now im not saying that the current plague in SC2 is entirely useless but it does seem to be weaker for the various SC2 units. and it just does not make sense honestly. like i keep saying, in SC1 units had WAY LOWER amounts of HP compared to SC2 yet plagued did higher dmg. in SC2 units have higher HP amounts but does lower dmg? im still honestly looking for a true answer to why this is.

also, bringing a infestor to someones mineral line is hardly likely. terrans with turrets and such can easily spot that that and forces can drive the infestor away. cannons is the same way. so i highly doubt that something like an infestoer plauging someones mineral line and spawning infested marines will happen unless they forget such simple static defense. and if thats the case then they DESERVE to loose.... hell why not bring some DTs in there to and just **** over there entire base.

also, i dont remember the terrans ever having close range melee units. just about all there units were ranged. but in SC2 they do ALOT of splash dmg then they use to so Darkswarm wont be so overpowered. the thor does splash, Siege tanks does splash, D8 charges does splash, nighthalks does splash, etc etc. even the planetary fortress does splash dmg i think. same with toss. so dark swarm wont be THAT over powered but still alot more powerful then what the infestor currently has.

but, with that being said i think spore cloud should be moved to the infestor. its a good skill and since races like terran have alot of splash dmg and huge lines of sight then it will be somewhat better then dark swarm. and it would just be better on the infestor. maybe switch places with neural parasite. it would be alot easier to get spore cloud off if its on the infestor anyway. i also think razor swarm should come back. it provided good defense for zerg building and the zerg always was kinda lacking in the defense department. replace spawn infested marines on the infestor for razor swarm. it will make the infestor so much better.

so infestor would basically have plague, razor swarm, and spore cloud. and theres room to add a 4th skill so maybe even keep neural parasite on it.

 

ok terrans had firebats as there melee attackers now they don't. tanks are going to be fewer then in SC1 because of higher damge etc. i would like razer swarm back, even if its on the queen for defence only (primarily) im not sure why they took it out.

and if you look at pro games alot of players don't get static detection until mutas come out so you could get to the infester at the same time as mutas (if not faster if you're going for them) and they wouldn;t have much detection. also i think infesters come before DT's and terrans would just have the static defence destroyed witch would be taken out by the marines if targeted. im also saying that consume (especialy in this situation would be overpowered) because you would spit out 5 marines suk up 2 or so and do it again and again getting more and more marines.

and im not sure how often the plantetary fortress is going to be used. its a permenent upgrade that makes it not take off and fly away so it would be risky but could help.

oh and plague doesn;t effect shields so it would be a permenent damge and bring the toss down 100 HP points, ur right about the shields regen but plague doesnt effect them.

oh and plague wasn't meant to work and then you go in with the enemy 100 HP less it was meant to give the Zerg and edge so u basicly you plague and then run into the enemy with lots of lings (and a darkswarm going to SC1) therefor ur missing the point with plague and how its supost to be used.

 

i know plague dont effect shields but shields basically acts like a 2nd/extra HP boost for toss that is regenerative. but i see your point since toss has no way of getting there base hp back. and in pro games it depends heavily on what they scout out. depending on the danger of w/e they scout from there enemy they choose to defend with static defense or not. like if a terran scouts a spire/hydra den and lair from zerg they immediatly build turrets since they know mutas/lurkers are coming. im sure in SC2 if someone scouts a infestation pit they will go for cannons and other defense around there mineral line preventing any kind of harassment like that from a infestor.

 

I'm sorry to say but I think Blizzard is better at balancing Zerg than you will ever be. I also find it hilarious that someone says the race is worse than SC1 when the game isn't even out yet or in beta phase and even so this an entirely new game, it doesn't have to work exactly like the first game to be balanced despite popular belief.

 

oh and ballistixz you could always denie the enemys scout so that he doesn't go for detection and just seiges up. the Zerg could also go for a more secret place and spill creep on a part of the map no ones at and make an infestation pit just to thought off the enemy.

a "proxy" tech build (build/defend tech else were then ur main) would also be neat to see done. there for you lose ur main then u still have tech. (that could be very risky thought. would be good for an island expantion map)

and pancakechef: i think that tittle was made when it seemed that Zerg were being pwned in every video and the Zerg fans had no hope. (of course the Zerg are still pretty much getting pwned but still.)

 

well i dont think it would hurt to put up 1 or 2 cannons/turrets around ur mineral lines to protect your probes/scvs from any kind of harrass. if not then DTs or any cloaked unit will be able to basically destroy someones economy. also remember that i do not think that infestors can move passed/under structures while burrowed. so if a base is blocked off they still wont be able to get in even while burrowed. i think it was explained somewhere that structures like pylons make strong magnetic forces underground or something to prevent that. but i forget where i read it. they can move under units but they just cant move under buildings and other structures.

 

Remember that StarCraft 2 is a different game than StarCraft 1. Plague is also a bit different, because Infestors are much better at sneaking than Defilers so you can cast plague on the enemys forces or workers much easier and then kill them with your mutalisks' bounce attack.

Spawn Infested Marines still sounds silly to me. Where do the Infestors get Terrans to infest when they fight only Protoss? I think that the ability should get replaced by something. Maybe Infestors should shoot a small creature like Facehuggers in Alien, which targets a small biological unit, kills it and after a few seconds spawns a creature from the body that is a bit like a Marine if it targeted a Terran and could maybe use the gun of its victim. If the ability would have targeted a Protoss it would spawn a big fast and powerful creature. (I mean maybe as powerful as a Zealot, not an Ultralisk) If one unit wouldn't be enough the abilitys energy cost could be lowered or it could shoot multiple multiple creatures at once or it could spawn multiple creatures from one victim.

Another idea would be the Infestor actually gahtering Marines. Since it can move while burrowed, it could sneak near a scouting Marine, unburrow and swallow it or it could capture Marines during combat when the enemy is almost killed. The infestor could have a maximum capacity of Marines and releasing them would still require energy so it couldn't just eat all the Marines that the enemy has. Though this ability would be completely useless against Protoss. :Þ

 

I have a feeling Muta teching is going to still be the standard strategy.

Movement while burrowed and the full damage Plague is perfectly fine if you ask me; they ****ed over Zerg detection, moved Lurkers to T3, and made it more easily accessible to the other races. If you don't have detection, a Zerg player SHOULD be able to sneak in some burrowed casters and Plague your ****, for full damage.