Viking Fighter's name sux, let's find it a new one!

Some people also seem to be neglecting that any anti ground capabilities the wraith may have had, they have been replaced by the Banshee and vastly increased in power. They only chance wraith would have against Hydras or Dragoons or Marines is if there were no detectors near by and then only so long as the wraiths were cloacked and even if no detectors came for the entire duration of the wraiths' energy it was unlikely that they would wipe out the enemy. The Banshee is a completely different story. It won't take long for people to realize that they cannot send ground units anywhere unless escourted by detectors when fighting Terran.

The wraith is being split between the Banshee and Viking while the Goliath is being incorporated into the Viking. Sure, the lack of cloak will probably make the Viking a less effective AA unit than the wraith was, if you ever catch the enemy without a detector. However, this is made up for by the Viking being better at AG and giving it the ability to get around dedicated AA units.

Overall, I would say the Terran fleet has become a bit weaker against air, depending on how effective the Predator really is, but much more effective against ground.

 

I don't actually play single player much at all. I need to read up on the storyline a fair bit to know what is going on. Also, I did not say that I only ever built 5 or so Wraiths, I said that I send them out in groups of 5 or so so that they can take out any stray units, areas that are lacking detectors and any under defended parts of their bases. Also, I find that massing 40-odd Wraiths is not ideal. That adds up to about 80 food, which, is about 1/2 of your fighting force, even more if you use Nuclear Launches. Having too many of any unit in your army limits the amount of other units you can have, and every army should consist of a variety of different units.

@ Quanta. Great post, couldn't agree more. That has been what I have been saying. the Viking is not the direct replacement for the Wraith, but its role has been divided among many units, like the Viking, Banshee and possibly the Predator.

 

You realize you're still arguing role with actual capabilities right? The viking replaces the goliath and wraith with a combination of its two forms. Just because now they require you to actually do some micro and transform their ass, doesn't mean they can't get the same job done. The current design also give the "walker" unit the kind of mobility they never had, wow, imagine that.

No. Did you even read my post? Go read my post. There is no reasoning or argument, that's what it is. Wraith is the prevalent Terran AA because that's what real life people used them for in real life games. And all of that already happened, we're 10 years into SC1.

Wraith AA and goliath AA were redundant. But wraith's inadequate AG meant that there were also little use for the unit otherwise. So what did they do? They combined the damn two units.

And if you're still here trying to argue that using wraiths vs ultras is somehow viable at all, you probably haven't even really done that in real multiplayer. Either that or you've never played anyone any good. Right, while you irradiate, Zerg is really not gonna have any darkswarm up. DS is textbook Zerg tier 3 in TvZ. Guess how often you'll see anyone using wraiths on ultras in that match up?

 

the wraith is fairly under-used in highly level games, the only time people really make them is to counter bc and carriers, and when people bump wraiths, they really pump them, normally at least 4 starports are required.

the only other time when wraith sometimes gets used is in early tvt, for initial harassment and early tech superiority against tanks

 

@ Remy. You were saying that the Wraiths powerful Air-to-Air capabilities pretty much nullified its Air-to-Ground attack so it is usually used as an Anti-Air unit, right? so the logical thing to do would be to get rid of its Air-to-Ground attack and make it focused on Anti-Air. However the opposite happened with the Goliaths. The Goliaths were also much more effective against air targets than ground targets (that's not to say that they were useless against land targets), but it has been its more powerful Anti-Air attack that has been removed from the walker form.

 

You really don't read my posts. Please do not reply to me before you actually read and understand what I said.

No, I'm not reasoning or arguing anything about that. I'm flat out telling you that in the real world, the end result that we currently know of, is that wraiths are used as AA. That is fact, not what I think is going on or should be. I don't think you understand why Reaker say people who use wraith pull that many either. He's not telling you that because he personally thinks it's a good idea.

And what you're trying to say in this last post is actually exactly what I just said. They combined the two damn units except they threw in a twist and made the thing take on separate aspects through transformation.

 

Goliaths were walking missile turrests with some AG capabilities which were mostly only usefull for defensive purposes. They were anti air support units primarily. Their disadvantage was against strong anti ground units. The Vikings also fill this role. In walker form, they have a decent ground attack but really aren't a match for a dedicated anti ground unit. However, ground support is not their primary role. Vikings are anti air support units to go along with otherwise vulnerable armies. The fact that they have to transform to do this gives them advantages and disadvantages of the goliath.

The Wraith had the role as an air supremecy unit, good against capital ships. It could also provide air support for an army in the same way a goliath would though I would argue not as well in many situations, though not all. The Wraith also had the role as a harassment unit. They could come in cloacked and attack an enemy fleet and do some damage and leave before a detector arived. They could also raid the workers at expansions and even the main base if it was poorly defended, however, they did not do this all that well. The Viking also fills some of these roles. Although Vikings lack cloaking and have fairly low hp, their attack will still make them effective against captial ships. The would likely be even more effective than the wraith would if the ships have detectors with them. The Viking also is a capable expansion and poorly defended base raider. Although the Viking as no cloak it has a much better AG weapon and it can land to avoid dedicated AA defenses, though this exposes it to AG attacks, an advantage and disadvantage depending on the situation. The only real disadvantage of the Viking over the Wraith is the lack of a cloack. However, this is made up for by the Banshee.

The role of the Wraith harrassing a fleet using cloak is gone but it has been replaced by a role that the Terrain did not have in the past. The Banshee is a dedicated AG weapon. In SC2 you may not be able to harrass the enemies carriers or bc's with wraith but you will be able to harrass their army, and probably end up doing massive damage to it. The stealth base raider role as also been replaced and improved upon since the Banshee's ground attack makes it much better suited for the role.

This is about as good and through description of the distribution of the roles of the Terran units as I can come up with.

 

once again a great post quanta owerup:

btw have you checked your own introduction tread recently? i posted a flash that explained the twin "paradox"

 

[Off Topic]

Ya I saw that flash, it explains the question partially. What has me confused now is if there were no change, or very minimal change in inertial as compared to the duration of zeron accelleration travel.

It explains the paradox very will by applying general relativistic principles. That is, taking into account that accelleration causes time dialation and that accelleration is not relative, or rather the change in inertia associated with it.

It doesn't address the special relativistic case, or at least I don't think so. If I understand correctly, only the time dialation caused by the accelleration will be factored in. I think the time dialation from the difference in velocity ends up canceling out somehow.

I haven't actually taken any classes on relativity though so I think I'll just ask one of my professors about the question. I know more about classical mechanics and quantum than I do about relativity sadly.

[/Off Topic]

 

The direct replacement of a unit would be a unit that is able to do all the stuff that the original unit was capable of. For the Viking to replace the Wraith it would need to have an Air-to-Ground attack, a Cloaking device and to not be able to transform into a Ground form. The same goes for the Viking walker form. For it to be the direct replacement of the Goliath the walker Viking would need to have an Anti-Air attack and be unable to transform into a Flyer form. The Wraith and Goliath has no direct replacement. Their roles have been split across multiple new units. That is the point I am trying to make.
The Wraith was able to defend against the ground and raid bases, while still being immune to Ground-to-Ground attacks, like Siege Tanks, Reavers etc. The Viking is unable to do this.
The Goliath was very effective at taking out Air units while remaining safely on the ground, avoiding the attacks of Valkyries, Devourers etc. The Viking is unable to do this.
There are not many direct replacements of the StarCraft1 units for Terran. The only ones would be Siege Tanks, Marines, Medics and Battlecruisers. Even out of these, the Battlecruisers have have minor changes to their roles with the introduction of Plasma Torpedoes.

 

You have no idea what role is.  You're still arguing actual capabilities and design.  They fill the SC1 role with SC2 design, that's why it isn't exactly the same, or we'll be playing another SC1.  The only thing changed was specific design and exact mechanics.  The viking completely replaces both the wraith and goliath.

You need to first understand how units are actually used in real life multiplayer before arguing their role.  You exhibit no such understanding.  You continue to argue the actual role of units with on-paper design.

 

For the Wraith to have a direct replacement, the replacement needs to have all the capabilities, which are being able to attack both air and ground from the air, and to be able to cloak. The Viking only has one of these.
Same for the Goliath. The Goliaths capabilities were being able to attack both air and ground from the ground. The Viking can only do one of this.
Also, do not have a go at other peoples multiplayer styles just because they you personally do not use that specific unit in that specific way. The point is that it is still capable of doing these things, no matter what.

 

so you mean you simply want the old units back? you should have said so long ago to prevent all this rather fruitless argument.

i personally want to see new units in sc2

also, remy is not attacking your playing style, he's simply stating the fact they are not very good against high level players

 

I do not want the old units back! I'm saying that the new units are different! The Viking is not the direct replacement of the Wraith or Goliath, because it is a new unit!

 

No.  For any unit to have a replacement, the replacement merely need to fill the same role.

By your logic, every returning character in a fighting game sequel would actually always be completely new characters despite the same name, old moves, basic play style, persona, or whatever the hell else.

Also, do not have a go at any kind of discussion pertaining multiplayer when it's based on your own play style.  Your limited understanding of what is generally accepted to be true at higher level play is no excuse to make unreasonable arguments.  Just because something can be done doesn't make it viable, and certainly does not dictate the actual role of a unit in general multiplayer play.  Just because you can use drones as your main basic infantry melee attacker through the whole game, doesn't make that viable.

And I have no idea why you personally choose to believe that viking ground form and viking air form are two separate units.

And maybe the original tempest concept was not a direct carrier replacement either.

 

But the Viking doesn't have the same name, moves, persona etc. It does have the basic play styles, but that is only because the units are similar. But the are definitely not the same.

The Tempest was a direct replacement of the Carrier because everything that the Carrier could do, the Tempest could do as well.

 

The tempest had no shield vs air.  The tempest had no interceptors.  The tempest had no gold color.  The tempest had hardened shield vs ground.  The tempest didn't have same "name, moves, persona etc."

Again, you have no idea what "role" even is.

 

The Tempest did have Interceptors, they were called Shurikens, and the color, etc, doesn't really matter. It was an ever so slightly modified Carrier, just like the new Battlecruiser is an ever so slightly modified old Battlecruiser. However the Viking is a completely new unit, despite it having similarities with old units.

 

Right, it makes perfect sense. The tempest is carrier, but viking is completely different because it took on new SC2 mechanics to do the same old job. Right, I was a fool.

 

ok we can all agree that's how you feel, i accept that in your opinion the viking is a brand spanking new unit. now can we just leave it there?