Viking Fighter's name sux, let's find it a new one!

Vikings are not taking over the Wraith's role. The Wraith unit has pretty much been scrapped in StarCraft2, and people will not use the Viking to fill its air-to-air role. The Predator is pretty much set to be the main air-to-air fighter ship for Terran. From what I can tell, the Viking has very weak air-to-air capabilities, and its flight form will only really be used as a travel form, enabling it to raid bases easily.

EDIT: Groups of Vikings (in flight form) are great at taking out large enemy ships. Predators are great at taking out groups of weaker ships, making them similar (not the same!) to Valkyries. This could make Terran vs Terran air battles very interesting!

 

Actually, viking air does replace wraith AA.

 

Hex, you've been on the forums for like a week so I guess you have an excuse, but ignorance is not bliss in this case. Dont say shit about units if you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. The predator is in no way shape or form (as it's been shown so far) going to be meant for fulfilling an AA role. It's a flying caster with a minor attack.

They've said several times, even in the viking description. The viking is the replacement to the Gol and the Wraith.

 

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Predator

Read it and weep... And I'll emphasize these phrases:
"It appears to be analogous in unit balance to the Valkyrie Frigate of StarCraft: Brood War. It fires multiple weapons, making it powerful against groups of weaker ships but weak against heavily-armored ships like the battlecruiser."
"It is also to be the basic air combat unit for the Terran faction."
"The Predator can only engage enemy air targets, and is defenseless against hostile ground forces. "
Sounds pretty air-to-air based to me! No one unit has replaced the Wraith. It has been scrapped and its role is now shared across multiple units.

 

the predator's air weapon replaces that of the valkyrie (low damage multiple attack) the viking's air weapon replaces that of the wraith (twin missile high damage)

the viking will be good against capital ships but bad against small flyers like the muta, just as the wraiths
the predator will be good against mass muta but bad against capital ships, just like the valkyries

 

A pure Air-to-Air fighter ship (Viking in flight form) cannot be the single replacement to a fighter ship that had both an Air-to-Air attack and an Air-to-Ground attack. The Viking is not the Wraiths replacement. The Wraiths' role has been spread over multiple units.

 

wraith air to ground attack was weak, the viking can transform into ground mode to attack ground, and don't say transforming takes time so viking will be worse than wraith at attacking ground because the wraith's ground attack had a terrible cool down, the viking's ground attack will not only fire faster, it will also do double damage against armor. also the viking has 5 more hp

 

Wrong, that's exactly what people will do.  No matter how much you want to argue, viking air form is a direct replacement for wraith AA.  Wraith AG pew-pew was pathetic, viking would actually be more useful all-around despite the need to transform.

I can go into detail explaining SC air balance model and each unit's designate role, the way Blizzard designed and explains it. Even based on that, viking air form is the wraith replacement.  But you should just go read the Units That Sucked thread.  I've already explained why valks sucked, which is why wraith is the prevalent Terran air based AA.  What replaces wraith AA is what really matters, but it just so happens that the unit that take on that job also more than fulfill wraith's AG aspect.  Viking is wraith and goliath two-in-one, it's that simple.

Just out of curiosity, do you actually believe that the four War3 races were not the same?  The kind of logic that you ride on wouldn't surprise me if that's what you thought.

 

I'm not talking about the damages of each of these units attacks... I'm talking about the role that the unit will fill. The Viking in flight form will not fill the role of the Wraith for several reasons. First of all the Viking has not Air-to-Ground attack. No matter how weak the Wraiths' Air-to-Ground attack was, it was still able to defend itself from opposing ground units whilst still flying. The Viking has to convert to a walker form to attack ground units and can then be hit by Ground-to-Ground attacks. This was not the case for Wraiths. Secondly the Wraith could use Cloak. The Viking does not have this ability. In StarCraft2 the Banshee has the Cloaking ability, as well as having an Air-to-Ground attack. This is what I mean when I said that the Wraiths' role has been split across multiple units. Its ground attack and cloak have gone to the Banshee and its Air-to-Air capabilities have been given to the Viking and Predator.

 

i would say everyone here has fair points. However strictly speaking about Wraith's AA ( which I do believe is what those last few posts were about) the Viking does take over for the Wraith in that regard.

Back to topic,
Icarus sounds....alright...yet since his wings melt when he gets too close to the sun....just doesn't seem that correct for the Viking. Sort of implies that the air form is weak as shit, would work great if it took an armor reduction when airborne.

 

ItzaHexGor, you are officially confused between what the words "role" and "capabilities" mean.  By your logic, the zealot now really isn't the zealot, SC1 zealot did not have the charge ability.  The high templar is also a completely new and different unit despite the name.  Since the SC2 zealot has charge while SC1 zealot didn't, the current zealot takes on a different role.  Does that make any sense?  Because that's what you're saying. If you are looking to form fit SC2 units to SC1 counterpart and require them to match 100% with no new mechanics or features, you should just play SC1.

Not only is wraith's pew-pew not a way for wraith to defend itself against ground, it is in no way a defining element in what role it actually played for the Terran.  Wraith is classified as tactical air unit for the Terran, and for the most part it also fit that classification in practice.  But it actually played a larger role in AA, taking on the role of being the most prevalent air based AA for Terran.  Wraith anti-ground was only a part-time job, a very limited one at that, it wasn't any good beyond light harassment annoyance.  The only race that had a true tactical air that was equally capable in all its functions was Zerg.  Protoss arguably, did not even have a viable tactical air unit at all, scout just sucked too hard.

If you really want me to go into even greater despite the fact that I feel extremely lazy these days, I can.  But I really think you should go over to the Units That Sucked thread and read the parts about valkyrie.  I explained why it was good on paper but was ultimately inadequate in securing its place as prevalent Terran air based AA.  Stats on paper mean jack when you are talking about the roles of a unit, whether predesignated or in actual practice.

 

Valk did suck, a lot. Makes me nervous to hear the predator has a similar attack. Intercept sounds great, but that seems to put it in a very support (well defense actually) role. I don't want that. Especially on a ship called the predator. Rename the predator thread next?

 

This may take a while... First off capabilities are specific or unique things that a unit is able to do. A role is how it is used in the game. Now...

The Zealots of StarCraft1 did have the Leg Enhancements upgrade which allowed them to close the gap between them and the opposing forces much more quickly. The Charge ability designed to accomplish the exact same goal.

The StarCraft2 Zealot will still be used the same as it was in StarCraft1, so it fills the same role.

This is what I'm saying: The units in StarCraft2 do not fit the roles of units in StarCraft1. The Viking is not the equivalent to the Wraith. The Wraith has been scrapped and its role has been divided amongst several units. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that the units in StarCraft2 should resemble the ones in StarCraft1. I am saying that they shouldn't and don't. The Viking is not the StarCraft2 version of the Wraith.

The role is how the unit is used in the game. I often used groups of Wraiths to take out large Ground-to-Ground units (Siege Tanks/Ultralisks/Reavers) and they were perfect for this role. They could attack these units without being in too much danger, and if they brought in some units to counter the Wraiths, they could just cloak and retreat. The Viking has no way of doing this, therefore cannot fit the Wraiths role. I'm not denying that their Air-to-Air capabilities are very similar, but this was not the main use of Wraiths.

 

Actually, I believe the leg enhancements were more useful for getting your zealots up to the front lines quicker than simply closing the gap. Otherwise there isn't much point in adding charge. Even with the leg enhancements, it is far more preferable to zealot bomb siege tanks than to run up to them. The increased speed isn't gonna make all the difference often enough. A limited scenario I know, but I think it's still a fair example.

You don't consider air-air the primary use of the wraith? Huh? What you said about taking out tanks/ultralisks/reaver is true...in campaign. Any semi-decent human player should have pleanty marines/hydralisks/dragoons to counter them. Especialy considering that you need some time to muster enough Wraiths to kill any higher HP ground based target. Hell even with reavers, you're gonna want to drop/load/drop/load with a shuttle anyways. Wraith is most useful air-air, I don't see how you can argue otherwise.
Cloak? Well Terrans get comstat easy, zerg got ovies, and observers come from same building as reavers. Point is; most people will not let you sit your "victory fleet" over their sieging army with such ease.

Don't mean to pick on you, I just very much so disagree. Also damn, we all should be duking this out in a different thread.

 

The Leg Enhancements upgrade is similar to the Charge ability, the main difference being that Leg Enhancements helps the Zealots travel a lot faster as well.
The Wraith does not have any primary use. It was a versatile unit that could be used in almost all situations. I'm sorry if I implied that Air-to-Ground was the main use for the Wraith, but I was merely stating that Air-to-Air was not its main use either. Also, when having a fully upgraded squad of 5 or so Wraiths, they were very effective at taking out stray large ground units. Reavers were a touch harder, but the Science Vessels EMP Shockwave made it a lot easier. I'm not saying that the Viking's Air-to-Air role doesn't fit the Wraiths Air-to-Air, but the Wraiths overall role was much more versatile, and the Viking's is very limited.

 

Case clossed then?

So anyone else got a name suggestion to get this topic back on topic?

Since it can be considered a highly mobile Goliath, how about the Go-Goliath?
Ok, any serious ideas?

 

It takes 80 shots of wraith pew-pew to take down an ultra, what are you smoking?  And we're not talking about 80 swift rounds like zergling attack speed.  Wraith pew-pew has longer cooldown than it's AA on top of the pathetic damage.  They shoot at the rate very close to sunken colonies(30 cool vs 32).  And that's just one ultra, who makes just one ultra?

You can believe all you want that wraith is versatile and suitable for every use, but higher level players have already played all those games for the past 10 years.  And guess what, wraith is the prevalent Terran air based AA based on actual games played.  Wraith's all-purpose goodness is only on paper.

If I'm not mistaken, the SC2 zealot has both the leg enhancement and the charge ability.  But that's really not important.  The fact is, viking directly replaces the SC1 wraith and the goliath.  Viking is currently Terran's tactical air unit, although it is also a tactical ground unit due to its transform option.

 

viking is different from wraith that is a given, however you can't say the viking is not versatile just because it's different from wraiths. sure against siege tanks the vikings are not as convenient as wraiths, because you have to micro. but it doesn't mean there's no way to fight sieged tanks, if you have seen any korean tvt games you'll know that dropping an army on top of static siege tank formations totally pwns them. it's so powerful that most tvt are dictated by this and the players are constantly playing cat and mouse tying to archive the drop. the wraith was very weak against ground based anti-air (marine, hydra, dragoon, goliath) but the viking is not, they will pwn marines and possible hydras with their double damage against unarmored and fight on equal terms with the stalker.

so in some aspects the wraith was better while in other aspects the viking will be better, but the important fact is that they are both versatile units

 

It is true that a Wraith may take 80 shots to take down an Ultralisk (did you upgrade both the Wraiths weapons and the Ultralisks armour?), but that is 80 shots from a single Wraith. I said before that it is wise to go around with 5 or so Wraiths, with immediately cuts the number of shots down to 16 per Wraith, but I also said that it is wise to take a Science Vessel with them as well. The Ultralisk has 400 health, if i remember correctly, and Irradiate will do about 200 damage to an Ultra. This halves its health so the 5 Wraiths only have to take about 8 shots each. Sounds pretty effective to me.
Anyway, if your trying to use the reason that because Wraiths air attack was more powerful then that its ground attack, then your argument that the Viking also replaces the Goliath is void. The Goliaths most damaging attack was its Anti-Air. Its air attack did about 32 explosive-type damage when fully upgraded, and its ground attack did 15 damage when fully upgraded. Also its Anti-Air attack was able to be upgraded to have an additional +3 range, giving it a total range of 8, while its ground attacks range was at most 5.
So if your saying that the Viking (flyer) directly replaces the Wraith just because the Wraiths Air-to-Air damage was higher and the Viking (flyer) still has that attack, then the Viking (walker) cannot possibly be the direct replacement for the Goliath, because the Goliaths Anti-Air damage was higher and the Viking (walker) no longer has that attack.

EDIT: I'm not saying that the Viking is not versatile, because it is. All I am saying that the Viking is not the direct replacement of the Wraith, nor is it the direct replacement of the Goliath.

 

umm... judging by the 5-6 comment, the fully upgraded wraith comment and the fact you are even trying to argue for wraith vs ultra you must play single player a lot. 5-6 wraith is nothing, when people make wraiths, they make 30 or 40, unless it's for the initial harassment