Thor Redesign

Hey Fors@aken, if you make artillery a fast reloading mechanism that you have to pay for, it is a sort of smaller area nuke, ain't it? Shop able, AoE...

I've posted this idea many times, but somehow ppl go around it and say something really alike it.

 

The Thor could have a "light" nuke or something, which would cost less, and deal less damage than the "heavy" nuke. They would be built inside the Thor, with a maximum capacity of two or four nukes per Thor. Range would be something like 10 or 9, and the Thor would have to aim for 5-10 seconds. After launch, the nuke will move quickly to its target. That would make it a high priority target for the enemy, and then, finally the Thor could act in its intended role: as a tank.

I also don´t like the idea of giving liftoff to the Thor. That way, you have to be more strategical with their placement. In case of a Thor getting stuck on an island, it could be salvaged. In fact, the first time I saw people discussing ideas for Thor transporting from island to island, I thought: maybe you could salvage it. Its still a giant field-constructed war machine. You should be able to dismantle it as easily as you could build it.

 

I like the idea of dismantling it again, but you shouldn't regain all of the recourses, otherwise the whole "strategic placement" thing would be lost.

@Overling
I was actually refering to my idea, the reactor thing, not the nuke ability. :thumbup:

 

If the THor gets a nuke it should either be small or be able to be shot down

 

In SC, transforming Siege Tanks were Ok, because they were TANKS, not mechs. Giving goliaths ability to transform in Pseudo-Wraiths is interesting but it is too hardly bound with cartoons. Making Thor a melee warrior deepens this feel far more. Adding nuke? Nope. Ghost already has it.

I like Idea of - Overling - paying for powerful ammo (electric charges, plasma bombs - Thor is a god of thunderstorm!). It would work like Reaver's Scarabs from SC1

Ability to crush fits nice here. Two units - protoss Collossus and terran Thor should be able to crush the smallest units under their feet. Also terran buildings should be allowed to land on unit-held territory (they are so large, that it doesn't matter what WAS under them

 

Imo, take away the bombardment and make the Thor a fireing powerhouse, i mean besides the Siege tank in siege mode we really dont have any serious damage dealing ground unit,

 

Well, given the new Marine upgrades, it's clear the Terrans are reevaluating the use of melee engagements. And I disagree, the entire Thor concept is very obviously based around a brute force type idea. The Terrans are saying, "We aren't scared. Protoss may be super advanced, Zerg may be evolutionary freaks - but we don't care, we can go toe to toe with them and smash them." I think the Thor already is designed to smash the enemy psychologically. Why not smash them literally too?

And sorry, to the various posters - I'm not going to discuss the nuke and liftoff concepts tho... If you want to know what ppl have already said about them, just browse thru the many pages in the 'Terran Unit Roster: A Review' thread, (link in my sig).

@ Thalion, I've seen that mentioned with the Colossus before, but imo it only really fits the Thor. If you look at the Colossus, while it is massive - the majority of it's mass is in its bubble, the legs are rather spindly looking. It might not be that difficult for a unit to dodge one of those legs coming down - and the careful crab motion of movement means that if one of the legs got lodged in something, the Colossus would probably lose its balance. The Thor on the other hand has large, solid looking feet and secondary appendages to make sure it doesn't fall over.

 

The artillery ability the Thor has already does smash the enemies.

If the Terrans get a melee unit it has to be fast enough to actually get into meleee range. The thor is way to slow and due to its turn rate whatever it attakcs only has to move one grid unit over to stay out of the Thor's sights.

 

the thor should keep his normal attack and his sige attack should be an attack mode switch. The switch causes the cannon mounts on his back to be DPS. A lazer fire mode that he uses to shoot with but cant move in this form due to the fact that his feet will be locked in.

The lazer fire i'm talkig about is like a warp ray or colossus.

 

you should make some pics of the new design that you have in mind

 

I dont know how i would get it scanned in or even on to the website

 

I have an image posting tutorial if you wanna check that out.

 

yeah send it too me

 

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=3104.0

 

Targeting something hundreds of yards away is a hell of a lot easier than hitting something a yard in front of you when it's a machine. If a Zergling moves twenty feet and it's standing two hundred yards away from a Thor, then the Thor only really has to move a couple inches, maybe a foot to keep up with it. Now if that Zergling was standing right in front of the Thor and it moved twenty feet around it, then the Thor would have to turn all twenty feet to be able to hit it. There's no way that something as massive as the Thor at the Terran's current level of technology could catch up to that Zergling in melee. It would either have to be much smaller (thus less massive) or much more sophisticated to pull off that kind of mobility.

The Ultralisk definitely is not very agile, but it's MUCH more agile than the Thor can ever be. Organic creatures (or even sentient ones) can outmatch a machine simply because the brain can tell the body to react faster than a pilot can order their vehicle to respond. Even an artificial intelligence would have trouble reacting fast enough in melee combat when it is as massive as the Thor is. The sheer weight and insufficient movement technology (hydraulics or gears, etc) prevent something the size of the Thor from ever being capable in melee.


Bonus 400 minerals for a Reply of Significant Interest

 

Machines don't move faster than humans because of reaction time, they just aren't able to because of mechanics. Machines can't move as fluidly as humans yet, mostly because they have to use pistons, but technology is evolving now to the point that we will have metal alloys that will be able to tighten and relax when a electrical current is run through them, much like muscles do now. The only reason the thor couldn't do this is because it is so effin heavy.

 

The Marines have been given shields because the fact they they will end up in melee combat is inevitable. The Marines do not now have a melee attack, so it is obvious that the Terrans main concern when re-evaluating their melee engagements is survivability. The Thor has a lot of health and armor, so it already meets those survival requirements, so it's main focus should now be on absolutely obliterating the opposing forces before their survivability is even tested.
Also, I hate how everyone is suggesting that instead of the Bombardment ability, the Thor should be given a 'lesser' Nuke. The Bombardment ability is a lesser Nuke! People are saying that it overlaps with other roles too much already, so why should it steal the roles of that other units already have?

 

I would be against this idea the idea of the Thor becoming a melee unit for a couple of reasons. The first and the biggest one in my opinion is the fact the closest thing the Terrans had to a melee unit in SC1 was the Firebat and even it still had a tiny bit of range because of its AOE and I dont think this should change in SC2. The original Thor in my mind was almost the avatar of the terrans because is was big, ugly, had more armor than god, and it had the biggest damn guns that could be fit onto it and that in my opinion is the heart of the Terran theme. 

Now lore/theme aside while the idea of melee attack would make sense in some respects it would be difficult to balance because right now the big weakness of Thor is its speed and slow rotational speed both of those would be amplified if the Thor's attack became melee making the Thor a much weaker unit. There would really be 2 ways to make the Thor viable the first would be to make it faster and turn faster which goes againt the theme of the Thor and pretty much removes one of its big weaknesses, the other option would to be to make its base attack really strong/have an AOE the first option there would make the Thor a literal battering ram and the second would remove its second weakness (its ability to be swarmed).

So the only way to make the thor viable as a melee unit is to trun it into battering ram. Because of that it would only at best, be okay against static defenses because it would take a ton of damage before it could get into range levaeing the Thor with just the job of leading a charge which in effect would make the Thor one of the most specialized units in SC. (whether thats good or bad could still be debated but I think the general consenus would be that its a bad thing)

Finally as for the Thor being a mobile nuclear weapons platform the first question I would ask what be that set ups weakness? (ex. the ghost was really easy to kill once found) Also what ability would the Ghost get to make up for its loss of the ability to launch nuclear weapons?

P.S. While I am pretty sure I might have repeated something that has already been said I dont remember every post in this thread so I apologize for any repeats.


Bonus 400 minerals for a Reply of Significant Interest

 

I must guess that you have never operated a firearm if you think targeting an object hundreds of yards away is easier than targeting an object at melee range. Yes, it's true the Thor would not have to move much to adjust to the Zerglings movement. However, the movement would have to be VERY precise. The Thor can't just jerk an inch over and wobble around. The other application of the point you just made, is that if the Thor moves 1.1 inches, when it's supposed to move 1 inch - it will miss it's target by yards.

Thus, it is clear that the Terrans are capable of designing a mech with exacting precision. Therefore, there is no reason it would be unable to acquire a melee target. You ask, what happens if the Zergling moves 20 feet to the right? Have you seen the Thor's scale? The Thor's foot is approximately 20 feet across, it wouldn't matter how the Zergling jumped around - however hard it is for the Thor to turn, it's equally hard to get around it.

That may be true of modern day technology, but this is Starcraft. The Cinematic preview shows clearly that Marines are suited up with input receptors that react to their movements naturally and instantaneously.

And that is why a melee Thor would complement Terran forces perfectly. Currently, every Terran unit relies on attacking foes from range. When their powerful alien foes get in close, the Terrans are exponentially worse. The Thor would essentially act as a meat shield for every other Terran unit. When the Thor wades into the thick of battle, the enemy must react to it. Thus, the other Terran forces are able to fire from their desired range and maintain maximum firepower.

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As to the various claims that melee units must be fast and agile, that is clearly false from our own history. Medieval europe is a perfect example of the military elite preferring heavy armor and powerful strikes over greater mobility and precision attacks, ever increasingly. It was not until gunpowder made armor obsolete that agility became considered more valuable again. Terran armor in Starcraft is not obsolete. It functions quite well.

 

Humans react much slower than computers, firstly, even in a "mechanical" manner.

Now that we have that out of the way, I think Nate's original idea that was presented a long time ago was much more succinct and helped keep the Thor in its original form while making the necessary adjustments.

That idea was to have the Thor keep its normal ranged attack, two cannons that deal 30 damage apiece. Almost the same as a Seige Tank in that respect. The attack would be incredibly powerful and render it vulnerable only to a large number of units.

The Ghost would then lose the nuke ability, which makes sense because the Ghost has now lowered in Tier and nuke rushes would then be much easier to execute simply because Ghosts would be available more easily. The Thor would then gain the nuke ability, but the launch time would be much longer.

Yes, once the Thor was in position, if he had been uncontested, you would be dead. But that's just the point. You cannot let a Thor stand uncontested outside of your base, just like you can't let a large number of Ghosts do that. You must destroy him before he reaches your base, or it's GG.

My suggestion to counter all of this is to possibly eliminate the Thor's ability to hit air units. He would then be vulnerable to masses of ground units and/or air units. Perfect balance. It would also maintain this unit's theme and structure while allowing it a differentiated role from the BC and the Seige Tank.

Also, the liftoff mechanic for the Thor was my idea.