The Zerg Roach

Not anymore, actually. You can now see the projectile, adding half a second or less.

 

If you ever played against a good player that did the Bisu build, and you tried to be at the same econ level, then you should know, that you arent capeable of getting mutalisks when he has the first few corsairs. Ever looked at pro-playergames? I think you should, because they show how Zergs timing against Protoss is on a knife-edge. And ofc, Blizzard should fix it, and im just pointing out what should be fixed, and what the problem is.

To overling:
In SC1 (again im refering to pro level, because IMO thats the "right" way the game should be played), you should never have sunkens against the bisu-build.
I dont really think you got my point of the bisubuild against hydras, so go check out some Bisu against Saivor matches on youtube.
If the Zerg player has to stay on the same econlevel as the Protoss, he will not be able to tech to mutas in SC1 as fast as the Protoss can (2 nexus against 3 hatcherys), but he could get hydralisks (as they were tier 1.5)

 

Well, if you're talking about 3 hatcheries and 2 Nexus then we're not talking about the same thing are we? If the Protoss has had enough time to build an expo, then this is way past what I'm talking about, and into the part where the micro and macro skill of each player counts more than the planning: depending on what the other will do, teching or spamming more units will become more viable option or not. It also depends on the map being played. You cannot say it is impossible just because a player didn't do it once, against another one of similar skill.

 

Have you ever played against the BIsu-build? DO you even know what it is?
Thats a famous build made by the Protoss-pro-player BIsu, which ensures Protoss a fast expo, with cannons, and after that they can fast tech to corsairs. OFC it Isnt imposible, but all little parts matter when we are coming to balance. And all maps used in the normal pro mappool in SC1 can it be used on. Amd the Protoss will also have the better scout abbilites (with the corsairs), so he will be able to react on anything. Overling how much are you into pro-builds and how to react, because it seems like you are talking like a damn noob. And on the pro lvl everyone nearly has the same micro/marco abbilites (there are some special person with very high micro), so strategies is really the huge part.
Like when bisu won with the build against Savior 3-0, because it was a new and very strong build.

 

I just know these guys are some that you mention often! lol Being a noob and not knowing the pro-players are 2 majorly different things. I'm no fan-boy of anyone. Neither do I visit "pro-playing" sites. If you could, send me a video of him. (could be even by PM)

I'm pretty sure that if you stick with cannons, something I also do as a Protoss at the start, you will not be pushing the enemy back, but playing defensively, and therefore be giving the Zergs many ways to tech fast. When I go cannons I fast-tech to scouts and as soon as I get shield batteries and speed upgrade I own the map. Just wait until I've got 50+ scouts, 12 stargates* and 3 Nexuses (with mass-Scouts you can defend how many expos you want!), leaving all my supply to scouts. The catch is the glitch that air-units had on SC1, that you could occupy the same space with them upon correctly microing. On account of this, Scouts are the most damaging unit per area of the entire game, only loosing to Mutas which have a too low HP and can't compete in AtA, or Guardians who can defend even less. By forming a small cluster of Scouts and alternating the focus-firing and the stop-button you can quickly respond to anything. Corsairs wouldn't beat this strategy because I later implemented an Arbiter (among other details), and you can freeze half their numbers down, diminishing their danger capabilities. Just freeze the Corsairs and use one group of Scouts at a time and you'll beat that (as one group already does enough damage, and theirs increase against many foes for being AoE). The only thing I ever found as a good counter to this was mass Goliaths with range upgrade**. But still, one would use the Scouts mobility around the map against them, and that's it. They have also apparently fixed that with Vikings.

To delay the enemy one needs to force him to build units back up. To delay an enemy one needs to go inside his base in an aggressive manner. Building cannons wouldn't delay Zergs, the only problem (now apparently fixed) was that Zergs had no real (good) counter to mass cannons, and they would hold off fine until you got Scouts to aid them, and then a group of Scouts, and then doom! /grins

*12 Stargates for pumping a whole new group of Scouts at a time, in case some eventually die (what will happen often);

**Psy-storm can be avoided very easily, I did it many times. Just share one group of Scouts to hunt and kill the Templar while the rest runs away. They're the first things to look after in a Protoss base. Ghosts can't do much as there are too many Scouts there for them to lock-down enough;

 

@ furrer. JSome Protoss tactic that gave them an advantage over Zerg in StarCraft1, doesn't ahve anything to do with StarCraft2.
What we were all originally talking about was that in StarCraft2, the Roach doesn't need to have a Ground-to-Air attack, because Zerg will be able to have Hydralisks and Mutalisks by the time that Protoss can get Phoenixes, which are actually pure Air-to-Air, or Terran get to Vikings, which, when flying, are also pure Air-to-Air. I guess that Zerg would still need to defend against enemy Air-to-Air units at this stage because of their Overlords, but if your opponent is focussing that much on taking out your Overlords, you should be able to walk straight through to their base. Anyway, that's not my point. My point is that Zerg don't need a tier one Anti-Air unit, because Air units are tier two, so by the time your opponent has Air, you should have Mutalisks, Hydralisks or both.

 

But how can you be sure that the Zerg player will have mutalisks/hydralisks out, when he just could get 1.5 hydralisks out in SC1? Im just pointing out that the "late" GtA and AtA units of the Zerg CAN be a problem. OFC we dont know if the timing is the same as in Starcraft 1, but if it is, this COULD be a huge problem. The need of a tier 1 GtA unit is dependent on how fast the enemy can tech, and im sure Blizzard will fix it if it is needed. I was just pointing out that it COULD be a problem, and we had a good discussen didnt we?

Overling:
I can understand that the normal-level of Starcraft is a different then the pro-level, and im nearly always talking about the pro-level, because i love gosugames!
I just wanted to point out that if you tech fast as zerg, then the protoss often has the econ advantage, espeically because mutalisks arent a so good harasser as against Terran (archons and cannons are better then marines and turrets, especailly archons with splash ). So you will often go lurkers, and you cant harass/presure as good with them. Therefore most pro-players dont fast tech against the bisu-build, because it isnt strong enought. Its better to try to hold the econ advantage, by going 3 or 4 hatch hydralisks (which will pop-out when the enemy normaly has corsairs).
But I think we will have to go back to the topic
Sorry for calling you a noob, Im even one myself
And remember, this was all written from a pro-level point of view.

But the whole point of these long mineral earning posts are:
I was worried about Zerg being able to handle the bisu-build (which perhaps even dont work in SC2!?), because of the hydralisk being tier 2.

 

Because Blizzard wouldn't be stupid enough to leave an exploit like that in the game.

Roaches are the same tier as Hydralisks were in StarCraft2, so if the exploit remained in the game, it wouldn't really effect anything whatsoever. StarCraft2 is a completely different game to StarCraft1, so the odds of getting an exploit that carries over from StarCraft1 to StarCraft2 would be the same as a the Demon/Water Elemental exploit carrying over from WarCraft1 to WarCraft2. In short, Blizzard aren't going to release StarCraft2 if teams have certain obvious advantages over other teams.

 

I know, but arent the community also there for helping Blizzard and pointing out where the mistakes are?
OFC Starcraft 2 is not ending like some unbalanced crappy EA game, we all know that. But we/I have the right to be worried about that, and point out where the problems IMO are.
And i dont really understand this part:

Roaches dont have GtA dont they? The only way i could see them usefull is to presurre the Protoss because you cant control cannons cant you? So you would be able to attack much better with the regen, because the damage would spread out?
Perhaps Roaches are even a great counter for the Bisu-build, because you cant control cannons, or can you? Thats really what matter then, if you can or cant control cannons!?

 

personaly i wouldnt even build tomany roaches agenst protoss, many of the protoss units do tomuch damage in one fire and could easly stack up on the roaches and we dont need to be thinking of one on one. we need to be thinking of big group battles.

 

Sorry about the confusion, I'll just run over that point once more.
Roaches have been reported to have no Ground-to-Air attack. They occupy the same place on the tech tree as the StarCraft1 Hydralisk. So even if they were given an Anti-Air attack, it wouldn't help against the Bisu-build because Zerg would be in the exact same position as they were in StarCraft1. If in StarCraft1 there was an exploit where Protoss could tech to Air units before Zerg could get to Hydralisks, and if that exploit was carried over to StarCraft2 for some reason, then it doesn't matter whether Roaches have an Anti-Air attack or not because Protoss would already have Air units.

Informing Blizzard where the mistakes were in StarCraft1 when they're making StarCraft2 would be just like telling them where the mistakes were in WarCraft1 when they were making WarCraft2, or the mistakes in WarCraft2 when they were making WarCraft3. It's a completely new game so no, if not, hardly any, mistakes are going to carry over from StarCraft1 to StarCraft2.
@ i2new@aol. It's already been stated that Zealots get ripped apart by Roaches, but apart from that your argument doesn't make much sense. If Zerg needed a unit with high regeneration against any race, it would be Protoss. Protoss have few units that do a lot of damage, so why would you refuse to have a higher regeneration rate against them? If there was a Zerg unit that had no regeneration, would you choose them over normal Zerg units when fighting Protoss?

 

I did not say that there were any mistakes in SC1 IHG!!!
I said there could be mistakes in SC2, because the hydralisk is Tier 2, which a Zerg player would have survived in Starcraft 1...
No mistakes in SC1 for gods sake...
I was pointing out that if the gameplay caried over from Starcraft 1, then there could be mistakes in the current !SC2! build.
You have it now?
Edit:
The Zerg always have hydralisks against Protoss bisu-build because it was TIER 1.5...
I did nit say that there was any "bugs" in Starcraft 1, you may have read wrong.

 

Seriously, dude, calm down.
You said that in StarCraft1 there was an exploit in StarCraft1 where Protoss had a major advantage over Zerg, right? You then said that the community should help Blizzard by telling them where the mistakes are, so the same the Protoss won't get the same advantage over Zerg, right? If this is correct then you're saying there was a problem with StarCraft1.
If you're so desperate to say that there aren't any mistakes in StarCraft1, why do you keep saying that the tier two Hydralisk is a mistake and keep on bringing up the Protoss' StarCraft1 tactics?

 

No i said the mistake could be in starcraft 2, because the hydralisks come later. And that we as a community could tell them that...
Because some of the tactics will be able to be used in SC2 ofc, and therefore i see the hydralisk tier 2 as a "mistake".
And now to clarify:
I never said there was anything wrong with Starcraft 1, but that it could be dangerous to have the hydralisks tier 2.

 

You basically just admitted it there:

You're saying that the mistake could be in StarCraft2 because Hydralisks have been moved back. You're not referring to the mistake of moving Hydralisks back, otherwise you're basically saying "The mistake of having Hydralisks come later could be in StarCraft2, because the Hydralisks come later".
Anyway, enough of that. The point is that having any unit in any place in the tech tree could be a mistake, so it doesn't relate to the Hydralisk more than it relates to the Marine, Immortal, Banshee, Ultralisk or Colossus. Putting any unit anywhere could be a mistake and seeing as all units have to be placed somewhere, I don't see why it's the Hydralisk that people are complaining or getting worried about.

 

I said why in a lot of my other posts: because of the bisu-build:

Im complaining about the hydralisk because IT GOT MOVED, the marines, ultralisks etc. didnt...
That moving is danerous if you CAN use the bisu-build in Starcraft2. In starcraft 1 it didnt matter because the hydralisks were lower tier, so you could get them out when corsairs got out. But in SC2 they are tier 2, so I AM WORRIED.

 

At this point the Roach is very useful against Protoss as the Protoss transition into tier 2. It's a ranged unit that does quite a bit of damage and has a crazy regen rate.

Effectively, unless the Zealots outnumber the Roaches, the Roaches win because of their regen rate. Flanking the Roaches and having multiple Zealots, of course, helps, but they're still a good counter at that stage. Economically, however, the Roach is no match for Zealots on a large scale.

As far as the Hydralisk and Roach overlap, there really isn't any. The reason that I had pointed out the Roach as a superior unit was that the Hydralisk was JUST as ineffective against the Colossus as the Roach and yet cost quite a bit more.

As far as other counters go, the Hydralisk is a better option because it fires faster and has different bonuses.

But, still, I think we will see more changes in Zerg. I'm pretty sure the Hydralisk will move back down to tier 1 and the Roach might actually go up.

EDIT: @ furrer's post:

To tell you the truth everyone was playing very conservatively. I know that I, for one, did not FE at all during the entire day because I was unsure of the counters and expanding is the best way to get yourself into an "oh crap" situation.

However, because the Queen is so mobile and the structures are so cheap and easy to use early game, I don't think FE for Zerg is a problem.

Also, with Protoss, because you can move your phase cannons without an upgrade, there is now a pretty strong chance that you can just move your cannons where they're needed.

However, do remember that static defenses weren't nearly as effective as they were in SC1.

 

@ furrer. It's not the moving of units that's the problem, it's the position. It doesn't matter where anything starts off. Just because it started there, it doesn't mean that's its best position. You're saying that it might be dangerous to have the Hydralisk at tier two, but it's got the same risk factor as having the Viking at tier two. Any unit might not work in its position, new or old, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it if I were you.
@ Joneagle_X. Is the Hydralisk really a better option towards certain counters? From the information on sc2armory.com, it looks fairly weak and expensive. What would it be used to counter?

 

Yes OFC i meant that IHG, where my lack in english against showed...
I just said moved because it got moved...
But the only thing i can take my expierences from is Starcraft 1, and there I saw how good the Hydralisk worked at that stage of the game.

Still Jon, can you control cannons? (when you attack)

 

@ItzaHexGor: I think that Roaches having an aerial attack would work great against Zerg enemies for "early" Overlord harassment. That's why they should keep it. A Roach is hard to kill and fast moving, but a Zerg can burrow. The perfect means for Zerg harassment is an anti-air hitting unit such as the Roach would. Therefore, it has to stay in lower tiers to be able to overcome more easily the sort of defense available at the time she's spawn: in order to be a raider.

This effectively adds creativity to early Zerg games, because instead of a Roach, a player could choose to make Banelings, and Banelings although not fast enough, can burrow and surprise surrounded roaches, killing them with a bunch of AoE blasts (from a bunch of Banelings, not just one of course). In Z vs. Z games we will have a bigger variety of units and how they're used.