The Zerg Roach

and im saying that we cant make real conclusions without knowing all the facts, and again you are saying that im saying that they are tanks, i had dropped the tank part of the subject in the one before my last paragraph there.

staying strictly withing tier 1

if the roaches and the stalkers have the same movement speed, or if the roaches have a faster speed, then the roaches can stay out of the stalkers range at the first sight of them they wont magically move into the stalkers range if the roaches speed is = or > the stalkers , and the stalkers wont always get in the first shot, if the zerg player burrows his roaches and unburrows them right when the stalkers are right above him, both stalkers and roaches will dance about, also if he have 2 of the 8 stalkers not part of the dance floor, he can get quite a few shots in before he loses a single roach.

as i said before we dont know the damage of the roaches, we dont know the HP/SP of the stalkers, and we dont know their cooldown times, Karune said that if 5 roaches vs 5 stalkers, the stalkers would win with little micro, he never said what would be the outcome if it was 8 vs 5, nor did he said that the roaches did any micro at all.

anyway, after reading all these posts again, i can see that all of this is going nowhere fast. we are most likely talking stuff the devs. have been talking about for a long time, we are not the balancing crew, we are the community that wants to strangle blizzard sometimes, with good purpose or not, for what they are doing to the game.

 

YA can you guys please stop auguring over the same point. I'm all for a long debate, but maybe you could not just talk about roaches vs stalkers.
IMO the roach is tier 1 tank, beyond that there are two many units on each side, and any focused fire will destroy the roach.

 

About the range, Stalkers have greater range, so if the Stalkers and Roaches end up in combat, the Stalkers will always get the first shot in regardless.

If the Zerg player Burrows their Roaches, the Stalkers will still get the first shot while the Roaches are Unburrowing. Stalkers will travelling in groups and we've been told they won't spread out into a single line like they did in StarCraft1. Also, to ensure that Stalkers or anything will pass the point they're Burrowed at, it would have to be at a chokepoint or something, meaning that the Stalkers would be grouped together more anyway. The chances or Roaches either being able to, or being lucky enough to, start the battle off on the right foot due to Burrowing is extremely thin.

About dancing, there's nothing that the Zerg player can do to increase the survivability of his or her Roaches with dancing as the Protoss player is one-shotting them. Besides, the devs would obviously consider microing for both sides as otherwise saying anything like that would be completely useless.

We're not trying to be the balancing crew or anything, but how is that a reason to stop discussing it? Besides, not you brought that up, if Roaches absolutely snap Zealots, how could the be expected to snap Stalkers as well?

 

no, no, no, what i mean is when the roaches unburrow when the stalkers are right above them they both run about trying to get their own space back, thats what i mean, i call it dancing sorry for the misunderstanding there. and im not saying that they can snap stalkers, im saying that given with the same cost of 5 stalkers, and staying within tier 1 there is a way for roaches to win, with out using cliffs or chokepoints. every time you talk, it sounds like its impossible for roaches to win against stalkers given the same cost of 5 stalkers and staying within tier 1. anyway, we are just going to go into circles if we keep this up, so lets call it quits for now till a few more important info has been released, then if you want, we can go back to this argument.

 

Roaches can beat Stalkers and Stalkers can beat Roaches. The skill/numbers/knowledge margin distinguishes the outcome of those units battling.

 

@ lurkers_lurk. We're not going in circles, as we've already agreed on and settled several issues, like that Roaches will not make good tanks. Just quickly, what do you mean by 'they both run about trying to get their own space back'? However, from what you've said it will only be the case if the Stalkers are directly on top of the Roaches as they Unburrow, which is highly unlikely. Also, upgrading Burrow would throw out the equal cost. It was slightly out before, but adding that cost it would be much less even, possibly allowing for an extra Stalker most of the time.

@ Psionicz. Thanks for you input. Very profound.

 

to me we are going in circles, and i still consider roaches a tank(but im dropping argument for later, now im talking about how, unit cost wise + any ability within tier 1that would have affect either one of these units for free of cost, the roaches can still win the battle) but i said that we have different views of what is considered a tank.

'they both run about trying to get their own space back' is simple, if you get on sc and burrow some units, then cover up the space above them with more ground units, then unburrow the burrowed units, they all run about trying to get their own space back, i dont really have any other words for it. and i said was talking about roaches vs stalkers + any ability within tier 1(for free of charge) which burrow is in, and even if you want to into account of burrow cost = to the same amout of minerals and gas it would be for stalkers you wont get another stalker, because 1. even with only 8 roaches cost vs stalkers cost there is 25 minerals and 50 gas left for the zerg to use, and 2. burrow is only 100 mins and gas, while a stalker is 125 mins and 50 gas, making it that the protoss have 75 minerals and 50 gas thats unused.

 

So what are your views on tanking? If only taking ninety damage for the rest of the army is considered tanking, what isn't?

About running into their own space, I understand what you mean now, but not only does it only apply if the Stalkers are directly above the Roaches, but it also applies to both teams. Also, being twenty-five minerals and fifty gas too high or low is a lot different to being seventy-five minerals and fifty gas too low or high.

 

im not going to argue about what is a tank, we both have our own opinion, and yes i know that both sides run about in that situation, but the zerg side doesnt need to use all of his roaches to make them run about, he only needs 5 or 6 leaving free the other two to appear and get several hits for free, and while the difference of how much money is left on either side if units cost + or not + abilities cost, im talking about in terms of staying within tier 1, where those unused minerals cant be used for anything on the protoss side except for 1 probe,** now my brethren we shall attack, and this probe shall lead us into a great and noble victory today ** lol, while on the zerg side we could put in a cute little zergling all by it lonesome crouching in fear at all the roaches that decided to make him tag along.

 

Why can't you just state what features of the Roach you consider make it a good tank? I'm not going to argue against your definition, as it's your definition, I'm just concerned that those features may not apply in the Roaches situation.

Also, that's an extremely specific scenario you're describing there.

About cost, it would probably be a closer match mineral-wise if there was an extra Stalker on the Protoss' side, as there would only be fifty minerals difference as opposed to seventy five minerals and fifty gas difference.

 

I personally don't believe that the roach will make a very good tank. When the unit first came our I found out about its high regeneration rate, I thought otherwise. Now however I do not believe so because or its low health of ninety. While this decent for zerg units, I don't think this will allow the roach to survive for very long under focused fire, even with its high regeneration.

 

i consider the roaches as a tank during the early part of the game do to the fact that even at tier 2 it still have the most health and fastest regain of health of all the ground units except for the queen, nydus worm, and the infestor( and i doubt that people will use the infestor as a tank ) for the zergs, from the latest(still very old) new that we have heard, and im excluding the queen do to that there can only be one at the moment and most likely not going to be used offensively that often( and when used offensively i dont think people want to let the queen to be the tank for long ), and excluding the nydus worm do to it being a transportation unit and not meant to do anything else, and do to the fact that its health was supposed to be small. and the roach can be part cannon fodder as well(tho zerglings are most likely better at that most of the time) because of its cheap cost, every 3 hydras allows you to make 4 roaches, thats 120 more health health points to be taken down.

 

It's a fashion to necropost so here I am.

The model has to go. The range has to go.

• The model needs to reflect the unit's resilience. Currently it looks like a small immotal. What it should look like to reflect it being able to take punishment is somewhere between a cockroach and a millipede, or either of the extremes. That is, laying close to the ground, low CoG, hard and clearly segmented scales/carapace, small legs and thus relatively slow movement speed.

• The range has to go because currently Zerg have the zergling and the ultralisk as melee units (disregarding the baneling and drone), and they're supposed to have the most number of melee units because of simplicity and effectiveness. The hydralisk is being taken to tier 1.5 with increased versatality even in GtG combat, moving somewhat back to the SC1 role, so there's no need for a ranged roach.

 

Leave the poor Roach alone. it`s fine as it is. perhaps it should evolve the fast healing ability later at the game or it will cost more but it is a fine unit and don`t be so scared from a few bugs hehehe

 

I wonder how well the AI will focus fire roaches in the zerg campaign or in skirmish games.

 

if you played WC3 enough imagine how the insane computer auto targets and 3 shots a lvl 10 hero.

thats what its going to be like in SC2.

 

Bumpy bump

The roach got all sorts of upgrades and the model hasn't changed much since its debut so I'm guessing Blizzard likes the idea of it. Well I don't, and I just came up (ok, someone might already have mentioned it, which I missed) with a solution to it.

The tl,dr version is to remove the roach and reintroduce the lurker. Below is the elaboration.
The much-favoured tier 1.5 hydralisk, if it returned, would not only be a crowd pleaser, but would also remove the need for the roach. In the hydra's current place the lurker could be placed, with the healing upgrade of the roach. So if we said the lurker became a tier 2.0 or 2.5 unit then by tier 3.0 the hive could unlock at the lurker warren the ability to heal fast underground (or it could be a tier 2.0 upgrade). As for the hydralisk, a tier 2.0 upgrade could remove its spikes graphically and allow it to move underground - its body is pretty well suited for underground travelling if we disregard its protruding spikes. This would also promote melee ambushes to showcase the nice animation.

This way both the hydra and the lurker would return with a facelift, and I think that would please closed minded people and SC2 fans alike.

 

I don't like what you suggest at all. I want new units damnit, not another returning old one with upgrades!

 

Well I want units that make sense, and a roach with huge claws that do absolutely nothing or a ball-shaped creature moving underground is not that. And don't get me started on the lame name and attack animation.

 

Acutely if you get the roach close enough it will do a melee attack with its claws.