The Zerg Roach

Ok, thanks a lot guys! The game info is very hard to follow accurately, because if we stick to the latest we might also accidentally believe in false rumors, but if we wait for solid info we might not see these corrections and latest changes in due time.

Anyway, since it has been cleared up, do you guys think that Roaches should have a slowing attack? Like the goo that the SC1 queen could spread on enemy units? Terran units can stun, therefore slowing what's coming towards them, but to me it has a different effect than a goo would. And I also remember people suggesting (before Zerg release) that the new Hydra should inherit this skill. Wouldn't it fit better in the Roach..?

EDIT: @ Zer[g]ling: I think this Tier 1.5 relates to the fact that furrer counts every building as 0.5. I made the same mistake earlier, but you two are in fact saying the same thing! It's just a name confusion.

And about Roach moving underground, a unit that already can heal so fast, to be able to move cloaked would be OP, imo.

 

Or what about a Parasitic goo, which toggles on a different attack that takes energy(or based on cooldown). When the roach attacks some unit with it on, he would regenerate that same amount of health. Or maybe half, but still, Totally domination =D Like This:

Ability-Pathogen

Effect-Half of the damage inflicted onto the enemy unit is regenerated by the roach.
Energy-10 per shot


Something like that. It'd be llike Tier Three, and be used when they're about to die. it'd be cool for the roach, so it's extra life. It wouldn't have much effect if you did it right when the roach is about to die, but if you see that the enemy is stronger, you'd toggle it on and use it. Just an idea, though.

 

Because healing regardless of damage makes it strong against enemies with huge armor/HP but slow attack rate, and regenerating by attacking would make it strong against low-armored foes, and that's it. It's regen abilities are very unique as of now, and I think shouldn't be changed. But the parasitic goo is interesting. I just don't think any unit so far should have it. Who knows if an expansion pack couldn't have one of these? lol

 

OMG, im getting sick of those not understanding the Tier system...
Let me point it up again (this is the sytem used by starcraft pro gamers and commentators):
CC: Tier 0.5 (1 building)
Barracks: Tier 1 (2 buildings)
Factory: Tier 2 (gas + 3 buildings)
etc.
Every building counts 0.5 Tier!
This is the same by Zerg (except that many see the Hydralisk as Tier 1.5 even thohught you need gas + building)
Hatch....: Tier 0.5
Pool: Tier 1
Lair: Tier 2

 

You should just put on parenthesis what you're taking into account for every Tier number you use. This way it wouldn't create a confusion to what are you talking about. Makes it easier to understand, and it's not like there won't be new people that don't know that system either asking later. If you put the buildings you're counting on parenthesis then its their fault for not paying attention if they don't get it. 0.5 for every building is not a prompt conclusion that everyone takes. People tend to think otherwise actually. And it's not like we don't get to write it like this as well, it is not a suggestion exclusive to you. I write it like this (with explanations on parenthesis), and perhaps would save headaches to do it as well. Just a suggestion.

EDIT: You could also create a topic defending the use of this system in the proper section of the forums and add the link to your sig.

 

Yeah, but this is like the 10 time i posted the Tier´s, and I thought this time they should have figured it out. Even when I did it I needed to post it like 3 times for people to understand.

 

Well, back on topic: as much as I see the Roach as a possibility for anti-zealot unit, I can't help to think beyond this. After the enemy gets Stalkers, Roaches are easy preys and shouldn't live long enough (to Stalker's Focus-fire) unless they get a decent bonus against the Stalker's armor. Can anyone think of a possible way out of this?

 

Lol... I wan't asking about the Tier system... I was stating my reasoning as to why teh Hydralisk is counted as Tier Two... DId you even read my entire post? Because, to quote the rest of the post,

And anyways, you're using two different systems for Zerg and Terran.
For Zerg, you're doing every building is .5, and it makes sense.

Hatchery- .5
Spawning Pool-1
Lair-1.5
Hydralisk Den-2


However, for terran, That'd be

CC-.5
Barracks-1
Factory-1.5
Starport-2

Unless, of course, the building requirements are different than SC, like an add-on or something.

But then, to make it work for terran, you said getting gas made it Tier two, like this:

CC-.5
Barracks-1
Factory-2(Since it requires gas as well)
Starport-2.5

Starport is 2.5 because you already have the gas, so there's no other requirement. and using that system for the zerg wouldn't work either.

but ANYways, my point was that Hydralisks are Tier 2... nothing else...

But getting back on topic, I tihnk the roach will be a harraser unit, not much of a fighter. It will soak a little damage, but that's it when it comes to main fighting. I'm still trying to think of a defined role for the roach. I mean, Zerglings against zealots are enough, IMO.

 

Well, take SC1's stats for a start: lings cost 25 minerals and 0.5 "food" each. A Zealot costs 2 "food" and 100 minerals, 4 times that. A Zealot's cost is the same as 4 lings, so lets compare them that way. 4 lings do 20 dmg total and have 150 hp total. One Zealot deals 16 damage total and have 160 hp. Lings hit way faster, but every 35 hp taken from them means 5 dmg output less, while a Zealot does 16 dmg till his HP reaches 0. In the end, all seems the same.

However, as it takes 3 Zealot hits to kill a ling, it takes 1 stalker and 1 zealot to kill a ling in 1 hit. When Stalkers arrive, using Zealots as meat-shields, lings shall be terribly owned. That's where I expect the Roach to fit in: to practically nullify Zealot damage and focus-fire like the Stalkers, as well as reaching these even in case they climb a cliff. Neither Banelings or Zerglings can deal with a Stalker if it uses Blink. Roaches could move fast and track them down if they try to escape. I just don't see how they would fare in a 1 on 1 fight with them. But perhaps Roach's range would do the trick, allowing many more Roaches to focus on the same Stalker to take it out than it takes Stalkers to take out a single roach.

Immortals wouldn't matter, as roaches already do 10 damage, and Immortal's shield wouldn't restrain that amount of damage at all. Since Zergs would require Lair without getting no unit in return except the Greater-Queen, it also matches because of the possibility for making a Phase-prism on the Protoss side, increasing mobility and counter-attack capabilities, as well as making Warp-rays, which gets nullified by the Queen's healing ability.

However, the Queen's abilities have a mana limit, but the WRs don't. In case they can fire at the base-defenses from enough distance, bye bye Zergs, as you won't have anti-air units immediately after Lair upgrade. At this point, Warp-rays would totally own Zergs, if they out-range static defenses. See what I'm getting at?

Making Roaches' den to deal with the Stalker threat, how can a Zerg defend against Warp-Rays after Lair? One would be required to tech to lair simultaneously to building Roach's den, resulting in much greater expense on their behalf.

 

Ok, guys? No more posting of the Tiers. It has nothing to do with the conversation at all. Clear?

Does there need to be a way out of this? Every unit in StarCraft2 has a weakness. Roaches will have a hard time up against Stalkers because the Stalkers deal almost double damage against them. The Roach doesn't need to have a way to stop this because that is its weakness. For example, Immortals are strong against units with a slow, powerful attack, but they're weak against units with a fast, weaker attack. They don't need a way to combat these small units because otherwise they wouldn't have a weakness at all and would be extremely powerful against everything.

There doesn't need to be a 100% defined role for the Roach, just like there's not a 100% defined role for a lot of other units. Just because this one may not appear to have a specific role yet, it doesn't mean that it won't be useful. Also, it wouldn't be wise to stick with Zerglings against Zealots especially now you've got the option of Roaches. Zealots are basically designed to take out small melee units like Zerglings. Roaches on the other hand are much stronger than Zealots so instead of sacrificing all your Zerglings, it'd be much more beneficial to use a Roach.

The Stalker deals less damage than the Zealot against Light targets. Zealots deal two lots of eight damage per attack, but the Stalker only deals one lot of eight damage per attack. The only advantage that Stalkers would get over Zealots when battling Zerglings is that they don't need to be in melee combat to attack. Other than that, it's the Zealots who are dealing more damage. It'd be best to use the Roaches to take out the Zealots and the Zerglings to take out the Stalker.

Zerglings can deal with Stalkers quite effectively. Stalkers need five shots to take out each Zergling, and its Blink ability won't buy to too much time because of how fast Zerglings are. Roaches count as Armoured targets, so Stalkers deal almost double damage against them because of their damage bonus.
Basically, Roaches beat Zealots, Zerglings beat Stalkers, Zealots beat Zerglings, and Stalkers beat Roaches.

 

Well Itza, if the Stalkers go up on a cliff and shoot the lings from up there I would like to see how a ling would deal with him. The Colossus on the original demo-video shown clearly what cliff-crossing can do. Melee units aren't a counter to inter-tier units ever, because of this. Therefore, Roaches must have a way to counter Stalkers too, and since you brought up the fact that they don't deal 20 dmg as I thought they did, and only 8+8 dmg like the Zealot would, I guess that range will be the balancing factor.

 

First of all, Stalkers won't always be fighting right next to a cliff. Secondly, Stalkers don't always have Blink. It's a long and costly upgrade, so Zerglings will still be able to counter them early on. Thirdly, if they do Blink up a cliff, the Zerg player isn't going to be stupid enough to cluster all the Zerglings at the base of the cliff so that they're still in range of the Stalkers. Fourthly, you're right in saying that the Colossus showed up what cliff-crossing can do, but the Colossus is designed to take out Zerglings, Stalkers are not. Fifthly, making Roaches take less damage from or deal more damage to Stalkers won't help because Stalkers have a greater range than Roaches, so will still be able to out range them from the top of a cliff.
Basically what you're saying is that Roaches should be effective against Stalkers as well, but that would mean that Roaches can beat any of the Protoss' early units. How is that balanced? At the moment it's well balanced with Roaches beating Zealots, Zerglings beating Stalkers, Zealots beating Zerglings, and Stalkers beating Roaches.

 

Actually scale for scale I think Zerglings would beat Roaches since its fast continuous damage.

Basically it beats anything with a slow rate of fire, and when the rate of fire is weak you need to focus that so its even more continuous damage.

If Stalkers have 20 damage shouldn't they be able to one shot a Roach is theres a group of 5.

 

A Roach costs about the same as four Zerglings. Four Zerglings cost 100 minerals and a Roach costs 75 minerals and 25 gas. When up against a Zealot, the Roach will get a convincing win and be able to regenerate the health it has lost fairly quickly. The Zerglings would probably suffer about two casualties, being fifty minerals, and any surviving injured Zerglings wouldn't be able to regenerate their health too quickly. That said, Roaches would be more effective against Zealots.
Also, Stalkers deal eight damage and an additional eight against Armoured targets.

 

8x2 tho so its really 16+bonus

If the Stalker has 8 base damage I will run into a wall.

 

The Stalker only has one attack of eight damage. Against Armoured targets it has an additional damage bonus of eight, so it deals sixteen damage.
It will take five attacks for a Stalker to kill a Zergling which is why Zerglings are the best counter against Stalkers.

 

WTF nooooooo ahh

The Protoss are about power. I'm starting to dislike some of these damage bonuses. Itslike saying: HEY, YOU SIR. YOU'RE ONLY ALLOWED TO FIGHT WITH ARMOR TARGETS

Naturaly the Stalkers should own Zerglings, well a fair number of them since Zergling own all in numbers.
It also goes against Protoss lore, tell me why a Stalker does the same damage as a Viking. Protoss units are supposed to be stronger than any of their equivilants.

 

The Stalkers may put a lot of their energy into being fast and able to Blink which may be why they've got a lower attack. Also, Protoss were severely crippled after the invasion of Aiur, not to mention that the Dark Templar aren't as attuned to the art of war as the old Protoss are.
However, lore aside, they've still got to make it good gameplay-wise. They've still got to give each unit its strengths and weaknesses, so the Stalkers strength is its ability to Blink and damage against Armoured units, and their weakness is against lots of smaller units. This still kinda fits in with what we've seen already with the Protoss, taking the Warp Ray and Immortal for example. Lastly, it's not as though the Stalkers are now forbidden to attack small units and are only able to attack large ones, it's just that they're more effective against large units than they are against small ones. Plus they're still effective against Zerg and Terran in early game because they're able to take out Roaches and Marauders extremely effectively.

 

Well the Immortal could of atleast been strong. It only has 9 damaged with no bonus. Now if these are supposed to be variation/improved Dragoons yet they have 8-9 damage when the Dragoon had 20 damage. The Immortal even fires slower then the Dragoon so that one should atleast be stronger since it seems to be the power house of the two.
Or if Blizzard are trying some weird shit were a Stalker and Immortal = up to a Dragoon they should be cheaper.

 

As they said in the intro trailer for the Protoss, they were forced to adapt, not evolve or upgrade ;-)