The Terran Advantage

Nevermind that the 1-1-1 build is capable of making tanks and banshees and players make more buildings AFTER getting their starports... what kind of moron would only have 10 marauders when a toss player has 40 stalkers? He could have 60 marauders by then and tanks with siege tech and hell even battlecruisers.

Oh I use zealot sentry. It works sometimes, but it's really only good for keeping the terran out of your base. Once the ball is big enough you can't attack it with chargelot/sentry, the DPS is too high. If they have a high # of marines and marauders are in front, they'll slaughter your zealots even if they can't kite.

I'm guessing you're a Terran player.

 

I think RushSecond makes a decent point about scanning though.

Unless a Terran player is uber prepared for everything, you can't expect him to simply scan and then build whatever is needed. It doesn't work like that.

At least most of the time it doesn't. Zerg are much more responsive to scouting anyways even if they don't have scan.

 

Oh yes, you are right, 1-1-1 is in fact a good build. It offers many benefits, but being able to mass produce marauders is not one of them. Maybe if you built 2 more barracks, but then the terran gets to chose which of his buildings stand idle.

Keeps them out of your natural too.

Just because zealot sentry doesn't work forever, doesn't mean it's an effective counter. It easily delays the enemy force long enough to get more permanent counters like immortals and high templar.

Wrong, I am random. Oh, and why do you even need to guess my race when it's in my sig?

 

lol didn't read your sig. You make some good points.

Anyways... just came across this, should help zerg a LOT vs mech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg&feature=recentlik

mutas no longer get OWNED by thors

 

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forums here and have been playing sc2 since it's release. I am currently in platinum for 1's and have just a terrible time with zerg.

And per OP, I couldn't agree more. Whether or not the terran player goes MMM, gets Thors, or reaper harasses early game both toss & zerg are at a disadvantage. I only looked through a few pages of this thread but I caught a general consensus of how people feel about terran having more of an advantage, but not being entirely overpowered.

I'll start off by saying I play Zerg, all the time. The MMM strategy hits me like a freight train whenever I have to play against it. Whether I have roaches & hydras, or hydras& infestors, nothing can beat it. The only times when I have beat my opponent that uses that strategy is when I am able to build more than 2 expansions, and vastly out number my opponent. But these victories are very few in number. I've lost to 4 straight terran now because of the MMM strategy. Massing muta's is a terrible strategy, they are very expensive and rines with SP tear the mutas up quickly, regardless if they're teched.

Thors aren't much of a problem for me, many terran players I go against rarely get them. I never ever have a problem with vikings, mutas eat them up like candy and if I really have a problem with them I can always get corrupters to take car of them, then later if needed I can tech to brood lords which always seem to let me down one way or another.

The Terran is the most versatile and adaptable race in the game hands down. They have a unit to counter any other unit in the game. The MMM strategy is very mobile and easy to micro and certainly has an advantage over any build in the game.

My $0.02

 

I don't really agree with you (banelings and speedlings own mmm unless he outmicros you), but what IS OP imo is that terran need not build extra units to harass you, he can just leave static defenses at his main and do an imba medivac drop, and when you arrive, he just runs away. He can do that quite early in game, and even later in the game, what do you do to make such drops impossible or ineffective? I can't think of anything except spending 600/600 for 6 mutas, defending your main air from 2 sides.

I need to spend 300/300 for a unit which can do such drops as fast as a medivac, and it doesn't even heal my units.

 

Well the rear of the base medivac drop can be very effective when done properly, I imagine it's pretty hard to screw that simple harassment up. Which in theory is basically the same as putting mutas in the back of your opponents base, same effect. But that's hardly the problem. Rines are only 50 mineral so you can pump many out in large quantities without being in a serious bind. Mutas take time to tech to, they're 100G/100M and are only useful in large quantities, sure you can deal a bit of damage from a few of them but you sure as hell won't attack head on with a couple. I'm just rambling here but I don't think mutas are the way to go for MMM.

 

Gold league, random 2v2, I only play protoss.

The few times Ive beaten terrain mid to late game is with insane amount of stalkers, colsi and imorts, all with upgrades. (Colsi primary the marines, stalkers primary the medi ships and immorts go for tanks and maruders)

Now Im so tired of losing vs T that I usually proxy zealot rush, cannon rush, fake a rush or some combination of those. cheese ftw..

 

I think toss have a bigger issue with MMM than zerg. bling + zergling does an excellent job against them. If you are a zerg player and haven't realized that, then you're throwing away games that you can easily win. I can see how toss could have more issues, but you have sentries, and force field is just nasty. It easily gives you an advantage on both races.

MMM is nothing new. A similar strat was used in the original sc and while zerg players *****ed an complained, we dealt with it. I don't think it's OP and if anything sc2 has done a better job of leveling the field.

domanz, i disagree with you. you can rebuild your army and change. So you're complaining that it's too easy for him to turtle (which they did in sc1 for more often) yet you're complaining about getting a unit that completely counters him because you're only using it for defense? seriously, if you're getting a ground army against MMM, it better have lings and banelings. Both are fairly cheap and muta should be affordable. It's not like it's any cheaper for him. He loses mobility the second you get mutas, he has to spend money on turrets and you have map control and go and expand. What is he going to do? His only chance is a tech switch, but to be honest it's practically GG, if you've scouted him enough to know ling, baneling and muta are the proper strat. I think the costs are justifiable and in fact I'll take that cost everyday of the weak.

and all of this is coming from a zerg player....!!!

Are there things I'm unhappy with...yes. I hated tanks in sc1 and the roach makes some sense as a counter although they took defilers from me (damn you Blizzard). It's the smart firing that is retarded.

If they decided to make the hellion speed an upgrade, I think that would make it particularly balanced, instead of only allowing zerg to play only defensively (without cheese) even if going roach. This concept that we're the reactionary race shouldn't be the case, because I should have a chance to go into open field at the same time and have a chance if we met in open field. We should have the option to choose the style of play and attack at the same time as other races if we so choose and that's just not the case with some terran builds. If they increased the roach warren build time by 5-10 seconds that would work also I guess, but toss would then complain bitterly.

Regardless, I'll continue with zerg. I like the parallel building, and the ability to turn on a time and have the counter army faster than the other races. Unfortunately, Blizzard has deemed this the reason to give the other races, particularly terran an advantage in timing and more units to work with. In sc2 WoL these things aren't going to change. We might thing complaining will change them, but it's obvious from the updates after release, that all updates will be very minor patches, as opposed to races balancing stuff. It is what it is.

 

Whenever someone screams imbalance I think the same thing.

THE ONLY PLAYERS WHO UNDERSTAND IMBALANCE ARE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

If you aren't one of these players, you aren't on a level to understand true imbalance. Maybe Protoss players at this level rock you because you aren't at the level where you rock them yet, make sense? Only the top players, after playing like clockwork, could recognize true imbalance, and even then it is debatable.

If you feel one race is strong you should play that race. I feel like Zerg are the strongest, and I'm happy to back it up in game. I'm not afraid of Terrans options, not a one .

Zerg have plenty of advantages over both the other races. We have the ability to rebuild our entire Drone count in the time it takes to build a single SCV, sounds imbalanced right? Just my thoughts. If Terran are the strongest race, and I'm beating Terran with Zerg, what does that mean?

 

If you are so good I'd like to hear your approach to bioball with siege tank and medivac support.

Fact is, even if you outplay this combination, it's far easier to pull off than beating it. That's imbalance. A less skilled player can beat you easily just because he has a unit composition available which "works" on it's own without much micro. He just needs to siege 2 tanks, advance with 2 other. Siege advanced tanks, unsiege the other 2, move forward, keep bioball near if mutas attack. That's it, gg, almighty terran. Of course top level players can beat this strat. But the majority of players just is not top level, and it would be nice to have a counter to this composition which requires less skill. It's like zerg getting the broodlord+corruptor combination 10 minutes into the game. That would just be as overpowered.

 

Burrowed Banelings/Overlord bombings? You don't have to be a top player to pull that off, unless you classify a "top player" as anyone without a mental retardation.

 

4 tanks and a big bioball?
what where you doing in that time? you could mass just about anything in that amount of time
and broodlord+corrupter combination is easy to counter act. just get some starports going as soon as you see that spire. its all about scouting and staying ahead of your opponent

 

Muta baneling is just so, so good against almost everything terran can do early game. It's a crazy good counter to MM + tanks, as it punishes the one weakness of the marine ball: the fact that it's a ball and all the marines are clumped together. 10 burrowed banelings could very well kill every single marine, and then the entire rest of the terran army becomes food for the mutas.

Only counter is lots and lots and lots of thors, and those take time to build, time the zerg is spending getting 4 bases and teching to brood lords or other scary things. Zerg have absolutely no basis for any argument that terran beats them.

 

Most terrans I played recently had ravens with them, so burrowed units are a waste of resources. What do you mean what have I been doing the whole time? Of course I have tried to outmacro and get burrow and lots of speedling/banelings/mutas. But the terran just needs to pull the bioball back to the tanks to protect them from mutas, with stim and some medivac support my mutas re dead quickly. The banelings and zerglings will get killed by the tanks and that's it. Maybe I'm that intimidated that I just can't pull off the obvious counter, but that's how I see it right now.

I hope there's another excuse than being mentally retarded, because I don't think I am.

 

I play terran everytime, and the way to win is to simply force your opponent to get units he doesn't want to get. Scare him with burrowed banelings to force him to get a raven while still killings his rines off. If their still pushing out with sieged tanks then kill him b4 he can even siege or make an effort to try and stop any reinforced tanks and marines from coming.

Zerg is just all about control of the game since they have the easiest tech switches out of all 3 races while the terran have the worst tech switches. They're in fact the hardest race because of that reason and that reason alone.
I used to think Terran was a bit OP when I saw me beating Zerg like nobodies buisiness when I first started, and now that I'm facing these advanced zerg players they play so smart. This zerg saw my reactor on my starport for medivacs, but whats the best choice against it? BURROWED ROACHES! I had nothing to detect them besides my scanner sweeps. Turrets was not a choice since their was such a nicely made creep high way. He even had his 3rd gold base going to happen. Once I got enough marauders and siege with some thors. he had completely overpowered me with mutas.

Don't complain about Terran being OP because you don't know how to play Zerg. Terran is the big counter race z, erg is the control race, and protoss the heavy push race that has good all around units. BTW charged zealots with +1 armor are extremely good against mmm early on until you can get high templars. Zealots stop working after mmm comes in mass ball, but by that time you should have high templars.

 

I must say that in that post I did wrong by insulting people, but I got so angry that so many players complain. I mean, it makes it feel impossible to win against terrans. High templars and storms are the answer for the OVERPOWERED MMM. Like seriously, complaints, complaints and other complaints. If he makes mech army(tanks mostly) then exploit his weakness which is immobility. If he gets a mobile army: Marine Maurauders Medivacs then make high templars, stalkers and zealots OR Colossi, zealots and stalkers. Then I'm sure people will complain about EMP, EMP is good against high templars but if you cast your storm, then who cares if the high templar dies? I mean a storm is much stronger than an emp. a storm deals huge amount of damage to OVERPOWERED MMM while an emp will neutralise shields. If he runs out of the storm then good for you since he just wasted a stim pack and prescious life on his biological units.


BTW I was refering to the post I made on page 1.

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Why are burrowed roaches a good choice against medivacs? I guess you are talking about drops into the mineral line (since burrowed roaches are far too immobile for anything else regarding medivacs). Please explain, I have troubles against drops, only thing I could think of until now were banelings burrowed behind my min line. Are roaches better?

 

maybe a bit late but im a toss player in >10 in my division, MMM is hard but once you learn how to counter it ive yet to see it work well ( as in beat me ) they mass maurder? immortals, marines? Collosus. you can counter it if scouted well and most terran i face dont know what hit them, you mention a scan, us toss have observer, show me a game where someone scans there base looking for it, i admit im only in gold but noone does, this is a massive advantage compared to scan, and yes it costs more, but if ure fighting mmm u get robo anyways. Banshees? ye allready anserd with observer, if you dont use that 99% of games, ure doing somthing wrong.

If ure facing terran theres no reason at all to not get a stalker first, this wipes out reapers, and infact you are in massive lead if they do go reaper rush, it means they have 2 tech labs vs ure 2 gate + core meaning they have to rebuild 2 more rax just to go mmm, everyone complains about terran becuase one of there main builds is easier to do than other races, but that means nothing if the player cant macro well.