The Firebat

Now thats the proper idea.. to put through.. the vikings definitely should go back to the factory and have the flight ability once the starport is built...

anyways back to the firebat.. im still against its presence and just want it to be a weapon upgrade for marines to choose between u-238 shells or flamethrower

 

Why not having more unit variety? Choosing upgrades individually would be bothersome. Better keep the choice to the production method and create some difficulty in attaining the Firebat. Allowing to choose the weapon after they are made would be too easy.

@ freedom & Ekulio: this could be feasible. AND would further compensate players that choose Reapers as raiders. Air-vikings were just too easy to attain, and getting Reapers will be a greater deal if the Viking air ability is left for later. Terran players getting Reapers would get a raiding mechanism much sooner than the ones that decide to go for the Vikings, by your way. I like it!

 

Viking from factory limits its uses of taking damage, because it cant be healed and probably costs a good deal of resources. I dont think it will be effective vs zerg for the same reason goliaths werent a good choice.

Goliath and Vulture gone from the factory.
Vulture handled zealots and infantry, goliath was anti air. Solution, Viking for anti air > starport, Firebat from factory > infantry and good tanker since he can be healed by medics

Ghost is more of a caster,cant be massed to effectively counter zealots and zerglings.

 

DKutrovsky, I don't understand your post.

The Devs probably decided the viking should go to the starport so that the Terran don't get air units quite so early, but the problem is that you get it too late then so the Viking's ground mode suffers.

An air unit that can land is ok...a ground unit that can fly is awesome.

 

Maybe thats it, its too early, and too powerful to get from the factory.

You can mass up a good amount of Vikings and just fly in someone's base not needing dropships or anything, and they are not as combat weak as reapers, reapers are only effective if they dont get hit. Vikings is a complete combat unit.

I think they moved it to the Starport for a few reasons:

1. Being what i said, overpowered in terms of time you get it. (Its ground form is still powerful, you get great Anti-air, but you get a Goliath if there isnt any Air enemy)
2. Not good enough to take on infatry units like zerglins, zealots,marines. Maybe its not good enough at taking damage, being armored and what not.
3. The firebat might have worked great the way it is right now, so they wanted to put in the game, and they are currently trying to see how that will work out when its built from the factory instead of the barracks(maybe its too strong to be made from the factory) And the firebat will be able to take more damage with medics than just vikings, so its a better unit to support the siege tank on the ground.

 

That's why I say you should get the air form later, but the ground form is fine coming out of the factory. It's just a Goliath without missle launchers until you get the air upgrade, which won't come to early if it has to be researched at the starport.

This is the part I don't understand. Wouldn't "being armored and what not" make it more effective at taking damage?

 

Vikings deal extra damage to light armored units. This means they take the ground from any infantry unit (including Zealots) when they arrive. Thus, it is a clear and smooth way to tech if you get Vikings in the factory and make them flying when getting the Starport. A natural, logical succession of units.

Flying vikings are an all purpose unit, able to attack both ground and air, able to be ground or air, and with the best mobility. So generic that surpasses the Hydra as multi-purpose unit.

But as I just said that Vikings should beat any other infantry, perhaps they beat Firebats too. However, I still defend the Firebat: it might not win against a Viking in a fight, but fare better than he does in certain situations.

 

Agreed, however Vikings and Firebats serve two different purposes. Firebats have shorter range, but do AOE attack, and are healed by medics, and by the look of things are probably almost as tough. I don't think Vikings are neccesarily the most logical choice in all situations. Furthermore, they are not at all more generic than hydras or marines or stalkers. The need to be an air unit to attack air units and to be a ground unit to attack ground units is just as much of a disadvantage as it is an advantage. Vikings can't attack tanks from safe above like a mutalisk/gaurdian/banshee/battlecruiser/warp ray/carrier/mothership nor can they attack phoenixes/scourge from safely below like a hydralisk/stalker/cobra/marine.

 

Glad you agree, but why 'however'? You just said the same I did:

Also:

I wasn't making a comparison. I was only pointing out that Viking is a natural smooth succession, very differently than it was choosing between Goliaths and Wraiths. Now you get "Goliath", and upgrade it to "Wraith", all in the same unit.

And to the last part, dude, I never said it was equal to any unit or unoriginal. I said it is multi-purpose, and it is. It can attack anywhere, it can be everywhere. All other air-units can't be ground units, and all other ground units cannot be air-units. Vikings can be both. That's multi-purpose above all else.

 

I guess I just misunderstood you then.

I think an air unit that can attack ground and air without having to land is much more multipurpose than a Viking. It's not quite as much of a jack knife unit as everyone thinks.

 

Vikings being armored units will take A BUNCH of extra damage from units designed to kill armored units. The thing is +damage to armored units is more, like, a tank does 50+50 to armored units, whereas a viking will do 10 and maybe +10 to light units see where im going?

Biggest advantage of the firebat is his ability to get healed by the medic this will increase his lifespan by A LOT.

They may deal extra damage to light units, but the firebat will still manage that job better.

The Vikings' weakness as mech form is ground dedicated units like tanks, stalkers etc. Its not meant to be a ground superiority unit, it can do it, but there are units who do it better, such as a firebat.

 

Well that seems like a good thing to me.
Every unit needs a solid counter, and we've all seen that Tanks utterly destroy Vikings.
Also, for the record, SCV's still have the rapair ability right? Well then that could up the Viking lifespan by a wee bit, eh?

And Firebats...I duno. I've heard some persuasive stuff, but I just don't see 'em fitting back in to the new Terran arrangement.
They don't seem necessary.
I guess I need to see a game of Terran vs Protoss and see what a rush looks like. We don't really know how Marines and Reapers will fare against Zelots, theyre my main concern.

 

Not just zealots, you have dark templar, high templar (psy storm will still own marines/reapers), Twilight archons, colossus(firebats wont die as easy from these).

And god knows what the zerg will have.

 

yes but by that point Terran players will have more units avalible.
Im just talking about early game.
The Terrans need a way they can counter rushes and execute their own.
Off hand I think the Cobra will tear up Zelots.

 

Oh yeah, Cobras are meant to counter melee ground units. They're the ones who will rape Zealots. And if they keep their anti-armor damage, Stalkers too. Cobras might end up as anti-Protoss units. But if you think about it, Firebats are not a rush-able unit. Terran rushes require Marines, as they are the first units available.

 

so uh, how does firebat compare to archon?

 

I was just compaing it to SC, where you rushed with Marines and Firebats.
In SC2, yea, no Firebat rushes.
and yes, I agree with you about the Cobra

Off the top of my head Id say the Firebat may be a bit weaker, but then again they have AoE attacks dont they. Different purposes. In a dual, my money would be on the Archon.
Again, I can only compare it to SC though, were the Archons were somewere around Tank and Goliaths.

 

firebat replaces goliath now though.

personally, i think archon would still be a bit stronger, but since you have to make templars and then fuse them, firebats might be cheaper or faster to make.

 

I'm not sure if Firebats now replace the Goliath, as Vikings can do Goliath's job. Goliath's were about single unit damage, and anti-air fire. So far, ground-anti-air is still missing. Firebat could be an alternative to getting vikings, in which Marines would remain useful as main field anti-air.

In this sense they would be in the same position as Goliaths used to be. But I don't know if they can really tank that much.

 

....bloody hell


of course goliath's role isn't taken over by firebat, but it's spot it taken.

goliath and wraith had similar roles anyways. viking replaces them both.
before you start talking about flying and cloak, that was given to the banshee.