The Firebat

if your playing terran and your enemy is using small melee units then firebats are your best counter zealots get raped by just a few firebats

 

Exactly, but Marines with HP and range upgrades and Medics could do the same perhaps. Why creating yet another unit for the same role? Marines can Focus-fire, suitable for strong units. Firebats cannot focus, but are suitable for many weaker units. And Ghosts could be suitable for even less, stronger units (snipe) or even more units (nuke), depending on the situation.

My bet is that they're making these apparently crazy changes to suit the inclusion of the Zerg. We are not seeing what they have in store, but perhaps the Zerg early game makes it worthy to have Firebats nearby, who knows?

 

Look how big the AOE is on the new firebat...just LOOK at it...I'm really not worried about the firebat being useful at all. I'm sure I will use it quite a bit.

 

Overling you make a good point about the Zerg. It may be that a firebat will have a much expanded role to counter many more Zerg units than before. I suppose in that regard, it may be inappropriate to condem the firebat outright. However, that does not change the problems of moving the Viking to the starport and killing off the Terran's new AA fighter. Now if the Firebat and Viking can coexist in the factory and the Terran get the Valkary replacement they desprately need then that would not be so bad. It may be an even better idea to put the Firebat back into the Barracks so it will be on roughly the same tier as zealots and zerglings. You can have it upgrade to a tier two caliber unit so that it stays viable.

Granted, if you do this you would probably need to trash the marine upgrades as I have a feeling they were originally ment to make up for the loss of the firebat. If the firebat isn't gone I see no need for these upgrades. It could then open up some other type of upgrade for the marine. The only problem is what to do with the fact that the Terran would have an extra unit. If no problems arise with the Terran having an extra unit then this is acceptable. It certainly is better than what exists now.

 

I was hoping that the air AoE would be taken by the Thor, so its role would become different, as the only heavy GTA terrans would have.

Well, I suppose the shields' upgrade could remain there for one reason: the main difference between this upgrade and getting firebats would be the way they attack. I was hoping that Firebats could require a factory, but be made from Barracks.
This way the Barracks would have multiple ways of working:
- Build a reactor and get extra Marines;
- Build a tech-lab and get Medics;
- Build a tech-lab and get Ghosts;
- Build a factory and get Firebats;
- Only use it as a step to get Merc-haven and get Reapers, which would go well with the reactor option.

Even tho you have no early alternative to getting Marines as defense, this would soon be compensated by a huge diversity in units.

 

you guys forget that the firebat no longer has concussive damage, which was what limited his usefulness.

So was his low hp, he'll be tougher and dealing more damage, still being healed by the medic.

 

firebats are essential for the terrans because their going to be the major support and meat shield unit the ground unit. With the zealots upgraded dash attack, marines will be minced without the firebats being in the frontline taking the blows. With the siege tank sieging a bases, it would be helpful to have a firebats nearby to defend against swarming melee units.

 

The discussion is not whether a unit will be useful or not. It is not about if it could be used in game, but if it is needed, if it can't be replaced by another current one. If it has a strict role, and another more versatile unit can fulfill it, there wouldn't be a point in keeping it in the game, would it?

We're arguing whether the Firebat can have a role in the strategy.

@ Heavyarms: However, if Marines with shield upgrades can kill more effectively the Zealots with focus-fire, and still last as long as firebats, why even add firebats in the game? Saying that Firebats can be meat-shields doesn't justify their presence, as now marines possibly could too. There's still open room for interaction with the zergs, and thus we cannot judge so fast. But talking about zealots, M&Ms could be balanced to be enough against them.

 

i know this is stupid and will never happen, but what if firebats can attack air units. Will it useful now or still be useless because the firebats have to run near the air unit to attack and the air unit can just maneuver away

 

Firebats will have nice AoE, and will take care of Zerglings and zealots much easier than marines would, they may be cheaper than vikings and get more hp per resource point than marines, they'll 99.9% have more armor than them.

Just because a unit can take damage doesnt mean he's a tank. The firebat will mostly likely have hp in vacinity of ~100, with a medic and 1 armor, thats a strong meat shield that deals AoE melee damage and has Stim pack and maybe something else, and doesnt cost much gas or minerals(i assume)

 

the firebat is probably one of the easiest ways to get rid of zerglings and zealots but dont you think that the terrans already have enough ground units at their disposal?? adding the fact that the ghost is now a 1.5 tier.. im just puzzled at how are they gonna get this done..

are they really sure that theyll bring back the firebat for final?? IMO maybe its just a better idea if they upgrade the marine a research to choose its weaponry like the BC, either gauss or flamethrowers.. but to think of it the terran academy will provide availability to the medic right?? and now that they brought back the firebats this means that they also will be the product of the academy, do the ghost come from the academy to?? or is it like the raider with a different prerequisite structure....

IMHO firebats rather should be the alternate weapon for the marines or ground vikings..

 

I hate to say this, becasue I was a fan of the Firebat (still am) but it seems life would be easier for everyone if they just kept it the way it was:
Vikings at the Factory
Firebats in the editor, not in the game.
As of right now things seem to be getting over-complicated.
The main complication/problem is the viking is still in the Starport. I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but an air unit that can become a ground unit is not very useful. By the time you have a Starport you will be able to build all sorts of ground units, all of em most likely (depending on the Thor's requirements, and if its still in the game.)
As it is now, the Viking at the Starport seems to nullify its purpose.
In my oh, so-humble-opinion, I think the Viking should return, and the Barracks should be kept as it (since the Terrans in a sense have the Reaper to replace the Firebat, thought they serve a different purpose, Ill be interested to see how they fare against Zelots.)
In the mean time, the Terrans need a new Starport unit, personally I was fine with the Preadotor.
I am at a loss to see why Blizzard changed them.
If it aint broke...
...then again maybe it was broke.

 

It would be easier to argue what to put in the Starport, if we knew what the Predator's role was. Lets check again what the Starport has:

- Dropships;
After tech-lab:
- Banshees;
- Nomads;
After Deep-space relay:
- Battlecruisers.

If Vikings don't go there, what use would there be for a reactor add-on? Spawning Drop-ships? Why?

However, there are already 4 units made there, why have a 5th, when factory currently has 3? It could be best to share, and make Vikings, Firebats, Siege-tanks and Cobras from the Factory too. Cobras and Firebats would benefit from a reactor, while Vikings and Siege-tanks would require a tech-lab.

But doing that, Terrans wouldn't have much anti-air, would they? Besides BCs, a Starport that doesn't make anti-air units... weird huh?

 

The Terrans simply need a new air unit to replace the Predator, yeah it would be 5 units but 2 of them are support... Vikings def need to go back to the Factory

and the Firebat looks cool and all... but it just doesn't seem to fit.... doesn't make sense to have infantry coming from a Factory and there's no real need for the Firebat... yeah it's good for close range ground fights, but the real need for that is early game and if it's in the Factory that nullifies its usefulness right there... the Reaper is just a more interesting concept.... the Terrans have been cutting back all across the board to be less expensive, so just let the Firebat go as not being cost effective

 

Thats a fair point.
I think we can all agree that the Terrans need a Wraith equivilent.
Right now they have no solid air to air fighter, which wont do at all. The closest they have is the Viking, but I doubt that it was designed for that role.

 

I suppose the Viking was indeed designed as the primary air unit for Terrans. Making other air units support for Vikings made the game extremely smooth, in terms of tech. I was thinking about keeping the Firebat, make it from Barracks but require factories to do so, move Vikings to Factories and bring back Predator to Starport. Maybe I'll post my idea for it in another topic, but it goes sort of like this:

A unit that either moves and attacks fast but does few damage, and when in interceptor mode looses the ability to move in order to hit twice as fast. This way, the Predator would be a counter to swarms of weak air units, such as scourges, but still be unable to hit strong armored air such as BCs. It would have a long cooldown to change, just like a siege-tank. I'll search for an idea like this and open up a thread if I don't find it.

 

I don't understand how people can think that the Viking won't be an anti-air unit. You guys have no idea about the damage, the type of attack, the speed of attack, or the health of the viking. You are all speculating on what you thought about the Viking before it got moved to the Starport. Blizzard will make sure to adjust its stats so that it will fill the role that Blizzard has made for it.

 

The problem is not if Viking fits there, it is that it fits better as an earlier ground unit capable of becoming airborne.

 

The speculations are made around the fact that it would be silly to give the Terrans primary AA flyer a ground mode.

 

Can't the Viking be built at the factory and then the air mode upgrade be researched at the starport instead? Makes sense and problem solved.