The Firebat

Man, I personally thought that the return of the firebat in the factory, instead of the Predator SO FREAKIN COOOL! OMG! The Firebat got a buff that made it a replacement for the Goliath in ground reinforcement. And c'mon, it looks so Badass! The terrans are now officially ready to hit the market, in terms of unit choices. Just tune the damn Nomad and everything is settled! (But for the Nomad we need figure what the zergs do, right?)

As to supply and cost, I think whatever the balancing team decides is just fine.

 

I dont think the Thor is ready nor is the Cobra.

 

Well, now that the Goliath is gone, there's no good ground-to-air damage anymore. Thor could be made to hit air. It's huge range would suffice to reach air-crafts. If Thor gets to hit air AoE, then Goliath's role would be entirely reoccupied.

 

I played with that thought too, Overling.
But I came to the conclusion that it's too slow. Air units would lol at it and fly away. They could even fly above it in a circle, making the Thor spin around.... Humiliating

 

I want the Thor to have good GtG attack, and long range, big cooldown AoE flak or missles.

Than i'll be happy.

I dont even know what the cobra should be. I dont find it too necessary.

 

Yeah, but how about anti-carriers?? Carriers are both slow and rely on their huge range for being safe. If Thor's range can hit them, and they're not that fast to escape, his skill hitting air would be a good weapon against Carriers, a unit that I don't suppose to be easily killed by any of Terran current air.

Imagine the following situation: a few carriers, phoenixes and warp-rays are outside of your base and outta reach (an air based Protoss). But the enemy's carriers are still reaching inside your base with their interceptors, killing you from a safe distance. If you go with Vikings, the Phoenixes will overcharge you and they're goners. Warp-rays will target the BCs from faraway, and I don't suppose you will have that many BCs to 'Yamato-gun' the carriers out. What you do? Thor!

A Thor could smack the stacked enemies and eventually kill the Carriers. Its AoE would kill any interceptors nearby. And its armor would make interceptor damage useless so Carriers wouldn't be able to fight back. A genuine counter. Even tho other units can escape it, Thor could take care of Carriers. Couldn't it?

 

@DK. The Cobra WAS kinda unecessary, but with its slowing attack, it's unique and brings up a lot of different tactics for Terran players who want to put a different kind of distance between the enemys melee/short ranged and his own ranged units.

@Overling. You want anti-carriers? Mass Vikings.

 

Few Phoenixes w/ Overcharge>Mass vikings

If you say they can be microed to escape the Overcharge by landing, the Phoenixes can be also microed to not trigger all overcharges at same time, and save some for the lag period between overcharges in which the Vikings could attack. There's no use: BCs and Vikings are balanced against Warp-rays and Phoenixes. Carriers are not on their diet unless you take carriers alone. But as there are counters to mass-vikings, we need something to fight back the carriers that actually could deal with them before getting killed.

Carriers can kill from afar. We need something that can do the same. And Yamato fits situations where the carriers are dispersed, not escorted by tons of ships.

 

Eeerr.. we are discussing a carrier counter, not a unit that counters a unit but survives its own counter, lol.
In that case; Siege Tanks suck. Period. Because I want it to be a zealot counter, but ANOTHER unit, called the Immortal, can counter Siege Tanks with ease. Boohoo.
Vikings ARE Carrier counters, and if you start involving other units, I can too. Marines would pwn rays and phoenixes due to their weak AtG/anti-small-units attacks. After that, the Vikings would rape the Carriers. Terran win. (Without using BC!!! 8))

 

Nah, I won't discuss this. I can't say what would happen in a game that's not even released, but believe-me that Vikings ain't a counter to carriers. You'll see! ;D

 

What I'll see is a bunch of Vikings benefiting greatly from their damage bonus against capital/big ships.
Also, Vikings are something like tier 2.5 and a LOT cheaper, so by the time the enemy gets 6 carriers loaded with intersceptors, you'll have about 15-30 Vikings....

 

Which will be slaughtered also way before you get carriers by Phoenixes, meaning you will have actually 2-3 vikings inside the safety of your base. ^_^

 

No, cause the "Uber-Phoenixes" you are talking about would get killed by a bunch of tier 1 units. (marines)
Also, wtf? We are discussing Carrier vs Viking, not Protoss vs Terran.
Stop bringing in other units. You said that you want a unit that counters Carriers. I said Viking. The Viking DO counter Carriers. End of story.

 

Vikings are an inadequate AA fighter. Their AA capabilities are similar to the wraith, good against capital ships but not good against large numbers of smaller ships.

Kill the firebat. Remove it from the game for good, put the Viking back in the factory and give the Terran a decent AA fighter.

Sure, Vikings can counter carriers but they can't counter carriers with phoenix support. That's the key right there. A good player doesn't just make one type of unit for heaven's sake, that makes their fleet vulnerable. The terran have no air counter to Phoenixes. You say ground will do the job of countering Phoenixes, but carriers and mother ships will destroy the ground units. All a player would have to do is keep their Phoenixes out of the fray while the captial ships fight and only bring them in to counter enemy air.

The Terran desprately need something to, at least partialy, match the Phoenix. Besides, the firebat, even after its makeover really isn't that useful of a unit in this new thing we call SC2 where molbility is everything. Sure, they'll be good at countering zerglings and zealots, and probably do a real number against marines and medics. The problem is that's all they'll be really good at killing. I know this because that's all firebats in SC1 were good at killing, a hit point boost won't change that.

What the Terran need more than an extra infantry unit is a better AA unit. I don't care what warm fuzzy feelings you have for firebats. Some units have to be cut for there to be new units and having a return of all the terran infantry with no new additions would be boring. That's why they got cut in the first place. Now because fans whine about their beloved firebats they bring them back even though that's probably not the best thing for game play. Don't be suprised if they get cut again

It is just a simple fact that the firebat isn't a necessary unit while a replacement for the Valkary is.

 

i still with the idea of giving the cobras the ability to attack w/ AoE on air units

 

ground based AA have a disadvatage compared to air based AA. Air units can easily avoid a ground based AA unit unless it is stationed in a place as defense, like missile turrets in a base. They are not good at actively searching for and attacking enemy fleets as air can simply move away from ground units, especially on maps with alot of difficult terrain. The only real solution is to have an air based AA unit so that it can match the mobility of other air units.

 

I dont ask why its lego, i just found these on the internet
[img width=670 height=434]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/APC/img_2649web.jpg[/img]
[img width=670 height=435]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/APC/img_2654web.jpg[/img]

it has superior anti air weaponry and can transport ground unit but no vehicles. No ground attack but any unit inside can attack through the window.This is my idea of a mobile bunker

OR

[img width=480 height=431]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/AAA/img_0422web.jpg[/img]

it has superior anti air weaponry and its effective against infantry

 

Well said Quanta, bringing back the firebat is a bad move, at least from what it looks like at the moment. Not that the firebat isn't already an overspecialized unit to begin with, the worst thing about it is that it has a hand in taking away one of the best things that happened to Terran, viking at factory.

While it's not the only reason why the firebat is a bad idea, and it isn't the sole reason behind bumping viking up to starport tech, it's still partially responsible and that much worse of a move. While having a tier 2 ground unit that can transform into an air unit for added mobility and AA is awesome, there is nothing special about a tier 3 air unit that can transform into a ground unit. Blizzard took one of the best new ideas they came up with, hacked it to pieces, and took a steamy crap on it.

Since Quanta already provided very good reasons why the firebat is a bad idea, I'm just coming at it from a different angle. Viking at factory is way more important than having the firebat back. Firebat really isn't worth it even if the viking wasn't effected anyway. I see some people happy about the firebat's return and how they would love it because it would have this and that much HP.

People need to realize that the firebat didn't suck outside of early-game because it didn't have high enough HP or armor, it was because it was overspecialized by design. It ain't gonna help the overspecialization problem any if it costs more food and resources. Higher HP and/or armor would just be to justify the added cost, it's still not any better, not to mention a higher liability factor and coming out later in the game.

I'm surprised how positively some people are taking this. There was many possible ways for Blizzard to address Terran's anti-infantry issue, but this is perhaps the worst one. If nothing else, it's at least the least original route they could've taken. All the while wreaking havoc on the rest of SC2 Terran design that was actually good. It isn't too reassuring when Blizzard starts adding old units back in at the price of killing new, fresh, original design ideas. Yeah, we really waited 10 years to play an old game rehashed on new technology, right. For anyone who actually wants that, go play Super Mario emulated on the PC, it'll probably be a more satisfying experience anyway.

 

Having the Firebat at the factory wouldn´t be so bad if:
1.Viking stayed there.
2.The Firebat got some "role-enhancement".

As it looks now the Firebat is even more specialized than before. I hope IF it comes (it was implemented after fan demand), it gets a role rehershal like the Ghost.

 

Yeah, looking from that point, I really loved the Viking on the factory also, and for the very same reason Remy pointed out. A ground unit that can upgrade to air is brilliant.

But I still wanna discuss one point: if Zealots are melee units and can be made useful through the entire game, can't firebats too? If there aren't a lot of same-tier stuck units, are the tier-crossing units still gonna be that special? I still think they would be somehow, like using marines range limits against them with a Colossus in example.

But I agree that Firebats, although cool, are merely a counter to mass melee units. And in late game they might loose space.

I'm still hoping that Firebats are faster and smaller than Vikings. Why not put it into the Barracks too? Crowding the Barracks wouldn't be that bad, it would end up increasing the early game possibilities for Terrans even more.