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The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

Discussion in 'General StarCraft 2 Discussion' started by Deus_ex_Machina, Feb 6, 2009.

The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

  1. JacobBlair1

    JacobBlair1 New Member

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    So a new race huh i vote for space orc or elf
     
  2. ninerman13

    ninerman13 New Member

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    I hope you are joking...
     
  3. DiablosDungeon

    DiablosDungeon New Member

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    First, nobody is asking them to add in a fourth race immediately.

    Second, the same kind of "difficult task" argument could have been said if the original StarCraft only had 2 races.

    Third, yes, I do believe they already know what the fourth race will be even though there is no evidence. Either way, it makes no difference concerning the argument that a properly done fourth race would benefit the game.

    There are a lot of other factors in WarCraft 3 that make it less ideal for competitive play aside from it having four races. What's more important though is that just because one game with 4 races is not perfectly balanced does not mean it cannot be done.

    In terms of depth, an extra race gives you an extra play style to master and significantly more strategic matchups among other things. For everyone else, it means more units.

    StarCraft isn't even close to Chess so that argument is invalid.

    There's no doubt in my mind that adding a fourth race is a gigantic risk and very difficult. However, there's also no doubt in my mind that it is possible and if done successfully would result in a better game.

    The main point with the fourth race for me, is that it should be added in the 2nd expansion. By then, the "Triumvirate" would be perfected and that is exactly what should not be changed. Rather, we add a fourth race instead.

    Funny. You're right though. I'm pretty sure everyone here is so fixed on their opinion that nobody can change anyone else's mind. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. ;)
     
  4. ninerman13

    ninerman13 New Member

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    Blizzard already said that each expansion is going to add another single-player campaign, a couple of units to each race, and maybe a new mechanic or two. Adding a fourth race to any of the two expansions would significantly delay its release. It takes long enough to create an entire new campaign and do any re-balancing as a result of even minor changes to the existing races.

    DiablosDungeon (and anyone else who is hoping for a fourth race in Starcraft II for that matter), I think you are SOL. Not only are most fans opposed to the idea, but Blizzard themselves said they have no plans; plus a fourth race would significantly delay time between Starcraft II expansions. The best you can probably hope for is Starcraft III - but that is EONS away at best, hahaha.
     
  5. furrer

    furrer New Member

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    DD: Just one thing to say: read our posts, you are not listening at what we are saying seriously. IMO you are just ignorant.

    "StarCraft isn't even close to Chess so that argument is invalid."

    You mean? They have often been compared to each other, Blizzard has even said something about it once. In princicple its the same factors who matter, and we see the same kind of different players. Strategy is a deep factor in both. Ply (if you dont know what I mean I consider this discussen won for me) is comperable with APM and the list goes on.
     
  6. DiablosDungeon

    DiablosDungeon New Member

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    @ninerman13

    Since the expansions are still many years away, it doesn't matter what Blizzard has said so far. They can change their mind.

    A fourth race would also only cause significant delay if no work had started on them, which as I said earlier, I believe they have already have started work on them. There is no evidence, just the hunch that given 10+ years since the last StarCraft, they might have thought of some good candidates along the way.

    @furrer

    I'll ignore the ignorant comment thank you very much. :D

    As for Chess... The contrast between a turn based game that has no APM skill requirement, no equivalence of distinct races to speak of, and where its best players do not immediately make good SC players seem like good enough points to leave it out of this discussion. If not, well, feel free to discuss how adding a new race to Chess makes any sense at all.

    Also, don't get too riled up over this, even if I had ignored your posts and those alike (which I didn't haha), if by some minute chance an important StarCraft Blizzard employee does one day read and become influenced by this thread, I'm sure they would not do the same as me.
     
  7. ninerman13

    ninerman13 New Member

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    While you are correct that Blizzard could change their minds, I am going off what I know for sure today rather than what could be. At the same time, Blizzard is aiming for the expansions to be more like one year apart rather than longer, which is what I am basing the delay comments on.

    Blizzard has been working on Starcraft II for what, five or six years already (2007 was just when they revealed the game) because they like taking their time to make the best game they can. Adding a fourth race would definitely cause significant delay - because otherwise an unbalanced product is very likely.

    Basically, they would make a lot of fans upset by waiting much longer than a year between Starcraft II expansions (which they would have to do if adding another race).

    Finally, the exact wording according to Blizzard:
    "We talked about the possibility of a fourth race early on, but we felt like we had a finite amount of great ideas and wanted to make sure we focused all the cool, best ideas on the existing three races rather than diluting those ideas across four races."

    I would interpret this to mean that they haven't been working on such a fourth race, as you have also theorized.

    As a side note, you are correct in your statement that everybody is probably fixed and won't change their mind, but I am enjoying our discussion nevertheless!
     
  8. furrer

    furrer New Member

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    DiablosDungeon-> you dont know what ply is right? dont answer my questions or start disagreeing if you dont want to start a technical discussen with the chess nerd on this site. Then you are the wrong place. This is a forum -> a place where you discuss matters, and we have a tradition for doing this with arguments, not just with empthy words.
     
  9. ZealotInATuxedo

    ZealotInATuxedo New Member

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    You can debate ideas, certainly, but you can't debate beliefs. All that you have presented are opinions: ''I believe we can add a 4th race, I believe they are already making this 4th race (Hallelujah!), I believe that I was blind but now I see...! (Amen!)''

    This is why I cannot debate with you; you, like all your predecessors who championned a 4th race, are incapable of presenting any arguments. Nothing pertinent has been added to this ''debate'' for about 9 or so pages: Noise and Pollution have been contributed, but no ideas and certainly no arguments. Frankly, the future of this debate (if there is one) lies in examining and counter-examining Blizzard's decision: was the decision sound? The evidence is there, I have reached a verdict: yes, it was sound, ergo: there is no case for a 4th race (go back and read my posts, something which you obviously neglected). However, the puerile minds advocating a 4th race contest Blizzard's decision: you all want to add a 4th race for all the wrong reasons: you're enamoured with the idea of robot armies, or you want a 4th race only for the sake of adding a 4th race, or because DOW has more races than SC or merely for the sake of proving all the nay-sayers wrong, that yes, we CAN add a 4th race.

    Once again, I remind you all of the alarmingly few valid arguments against a 4th race that have been raised in this omnium-gatherum of a thread:

    1) No one (not even Blizzard) has hit upon an original 4th gameplay philosophy to exploit, as the three fundamental RTS gameplay philosophies are accounted for in the three races we have. Adding a 4th race, then, would only be at the expense of the original 3 --an opinion that Blizzard share. The first step to creating a 4th race would be to surmont this obstacle, an obstacle that, according to some game designers, cannot be adequately addressed. I witthdraw my view that it is inherently impossible, however, I maintain that it must be breached before you can seriously work on a 4th race.

    2) Even if such a gameplay philosophy were devised (which is highly unlikely), the work associated with the balance would be almost insurmountable (all of those who referenced the rather broken races from WarCraft III were absoluetly spot on). The simpler solution is to expound on the existing races in StarCraft, and substitute units through expansions, thus assuring a varied and rich gameplay, and the intellectual challenge of mastering new units and their abilities --all the benefits minus the time and effort of creating a 4th race.

    3) StarCraft 2 does not need a 4th race in order to be ''more strategic''. Unless you were convinced by Deus Ex Machina's proposition that a 4th race would singlehandedly make SC2 into a truly profound strategic experience, we all know that the existing Triumvirate already offers rich strategic options, and will only be bettered by SC2 and its expansions. (And if you believe THAT is open to debate, please open another thread)

    4) This argument is an appeal to tradition and is consequently a bit of a logical fallacy, but has its merits as well: StarCraft has built its reputation on the fact that it is a Triumvirate of races. The reason that it is carries some weight is that it brings us back to argument 1).

    And here is the single valid argument for a 4th race, an argument, I remind you, that I originally brought to the debate.

    1) the only cogent argument for a 4th race is that it would expand the strategic horizon and mitigate repeated strategies, which would result in higher replayability. However, this argument is negated by the arguments 1 and 2 from above,

    This is my last post in this thread. If you want to debate, use arguments, use logic, use quotes, but abstain from using your opinions and beliefs to denigrate others' legitimate arguments.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  10. CyberPitz

    CyberPitz New Member

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    I'm extremely confused how some people are thinking that adding a fourth race WILL make for a better game. How?

    The game is already rather difficult for new people to just hop in and get used to playing. Adding a fourth race will add unnecessary complexity along with just some un-needed flare. The "more is always better" argument cannot be placed, because that's not always true. More-so in this case, when we have a game that covers all fundamental bases with the way the races interact with each other. Adding even more into this is just going to lapse over one or two and be redundant.

    Think of it like this.
    http://semanticstudios.com/publications/semantics/images/threecirclesbig.jpg

    We have each one a race. They all meet in the middle, resource gathering or what not. Then each race touches each other a little bit with similarity. May it be units, lore or something else. Where would you put the 4th circle? It would just overlap two, if not all three.

    With the three we have now, we have the perfect balance between variety and uniqueness.
     
  11. DiablosDungeon

    DiablosDungeon New Member

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    As I said, it's just my prediction. We'll just have to wait and see.

    @furrer

    I can understand that you really like Chess and I do not doubt that you can point out plenty of similarities between it and StarCraft. However, I know for a fact that I can point out exponentially more similarities between WarCraft 3 and StarCraft. That is all I was trying to say.

    @ZealotInATuxedo & Cyberpitz

    I'm pretty much in agreement. I've never said that I knew what mechanic or improvement this fourth race should have. My prediction is precisely that I believe Blizzard has already come up with a fourth idea. If not, well, that's too bad. Everyone loses out.

    Note as well that if I did, I certainly would not spew it here. I'd bring it right up to Blizzard and you bet they'd hire me on the spot. You can also bet that Blizzard would not be in a hurry to reveal it if something similar was discovered.

    Finally, I also agree that there is nothing more to discuss if no one brings out any concrete ideas. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.