The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

It should be said that the balance gap that the 4 races in wc3 compared to the 3 in scbw craeted has been a big problem. Orc vs Undead is very unbalanced in the pro scene.

 

but you also have to note that they added two races at once, and obviously they balanced it to a certain extent before stopping

 

I know I know, its just that there is much more balance to make with 4 races instead of 3. With 3 races in 1v1 there are 3 matchups (TvT, ZvZ, PvP dont count ). WIth 4 races there are 8 matchups if I know my math. Thats a lot more work. And then think 2v2. That was even unbalanced in the pro-sc-scene. 2 Zerg was imba (banned in korean progaming) and 1 was always Zerg.

 

I'm with Furrer. Adding that extra race is a whole bunch of balancing that will just make the game more complex while adding way too much balancing. In Starcraft, more doesn't necessarily mean better...

 

You're missing the point, in fact...not just you but a few others that post in here tend to skim over what ZealotInATuxedo was trying to state.

I wont bother trying to mirror out what he posted for sake of both you going back and reading it your self, as well as I'd just end up hampering his nicely stated argument down.

Seems most people in this thread in favor over a 4th race, such as windblade, want it for simple reasons as having more. What's the issue with having 3 well defined races? Do you, or can you grasp what that implies? By well defined, they don't interfere with each other in concept art nor lore...or even in abilities. They each stand out as a true race of creatures/beings and clearly all you have to do is see a small glimpse of one in action to note which is fighting.

What that means is at any time, a new or old player to SC II will never question if a unit or building is on a possible 2 sides, nor will they ever make a fuss over stating that a unit/building would/could be used in any more then 1 of the 3 current races.

This is 1 of the key reasons why the Starcraft 2 team talked about the 4th race and chose not to implement it. You have a perfect mix of feel/design/lore of these 3 races...and to throw in another only dips into those races. We all know that a new if not multiple races will be added into the single player and custom maps, but as far as online play goes...these are truly as close as you can get to perfection of a healthy balance of those elements. (Surely the only way to get a perfect game is to give everyone the same units, a perfectly symmetrical map and objectives - but that's not the case with starcraft, and with these 3 races...we are as close as we want/need to be)

Yet sadly, it seems like windblade, and others possibly understand this... yet still want a 4th race for the sake of having just a 4th race. It's like stating, "I have x amount of this...I like it...so I want to add x amount more because then I'll be even happier" - which is an over simplified statement/point of view.

One huge bit I will not get into is Balance, that's time on release(both SC II and it's 2 expansion releases) as well as far more extreme time spent on years of patches that may never reach quality level. It CAN be done mind you...it's not impossible...but it's not worth it for this game...again, it's not needed for this game.

 

You hit the nail on the head, RationalThought. I completely agree.

 

I will cover the balance part, which is another example of the uselessness of another race in a game that is already fine how it is.

8 matchups compared to 3 is a lot more balance work. So to make it easier all races will get units that look the same (meat wagons/glaives/catas anybody? ) = the new race ends up making the game not more interesting but more uninteresting.

 

The above X posts really got it spot on.

But seriously, like I've said before, the addition of a fourth race to SC disturbs the equilibrium of balance already established. Yes, a fourth race would be interesting, but would it be fun in the long run? Is it really worth it to disturb the balance that exists already, requiring an additional "gap" be made to accommodate a filling we really don't need? In order for said race to work, we would have to make changes to the existing races that not only cause the consumer to feel as if something is missing and one race is very over powered, but also say "I'm sorry, but what the hell?"

With said addition to this game, everything from the ground up would have to be rebalanced with awkward numbers. Suddenly my marine has 33 health because we had to make room for balance of race X? That alone would require a complete rehash of all tactics involving even the base units simply because the zergling can kill in seven hits, not eight. Or the attack value for everything has to be changed to make room for that. Now the zergling would require doing 4.5 damage?

There's just too much disturbance of adding "race X". Its like this, Starcraft is a boat in a bathtub being made for you by your roommate. He'd added all these details and toothpicks to help keep this rag-tag boat from falling over while still remaining pretty. Then, he starts adding even more details, while removing some of the old stuff, and still doing all this difficult work to make sure it does not capsize. Then you go about and throw a brick in the water and a 10 pound miniature statue of Johnny Depp to the front in pirate costume, and the whole thing needs to be rebuilt. After more than 10 years of work. You end up without an awesome boat, and your roommate has to rebuild said awesome boat, eventually goes homeless from missing days of work, and fractures the back of your skull with a lead pipe.

Now tell me, do you want this awesome boat and want to keep the back of your skull?

Edit: Actually, its more like your roommate took time to do all this, divided the boat into three sections, the middle focusing on the main burden of weight, the front with the weight in its back and pointed for aerodynamics, the back shaped accordingly, and then you were like "BUT I THINK IT WOULD LOOK COOLER WITH A WING ON THE LEFT SIDE" and then it capsizes and he breaks your skull.

 

A lot of good arguments have been made against a 4th race, but I disagree very much with the point of view.

First, assume the best case scenario that we get this fourth race, and that it is perfectly in sync and balanced with the three that we currently have. Does this not inherently make for a more exciting game? Assuming the best case, we get more matchups, more depth, etc.

Second, a lot of complaints come simply from the argument that it is impossible to add this extra fourth race without breaking balance, breaking the delicate StarCraft ecosystem, or not being unique enough. Give me a break. Not only has Blizzard had over a decade to come up with a new race, I'd go so far as to say that they probably already know what it is going to be.

As I said in one of my previous posts, I think a lot of people underestimate what is possible and what is not possible. To me, sticking with three races is basically the equivalent of giving up and saying that we've reached the plateau. Note that this is also a suggestion for EXPANSION #2. By then, they'd also probably be much better off adding an entirely new race than trying to shove more units into the existing races.

 

TBH, you can't really say "More depth" with a 4th race unless you are meaning "More variety"...two very different things. If you're talking about more depth into gameplay, it won't really change too much...as the only thing a 4th race could add to the mix is less of the same matchups...but still, balancing will still be a difficult task. They are STILL balancing these 3 races. If they throw another one into the mix, they won't just have to balance that one race against the other three, they will have to work on the other 3 to match the new one, also.

You make it sound like they already ARE working on a 4th race, when in fact, there is no evidence towards that. They have said they want SCII to be a lot like SC1...because, why break what isn't broken? Just taking things onto the game will just make it worse, in most everybody's opinion. It's like seeing a car decked out in chrome with giant wheels and scoops and exhausts...it's just gaudy to most people, and decent to the few.

 

i dunno, 4th race be tough but so its adding 2-3 new units per expansion. and even dustin browder has stated that it will be very challeging to not potentially throw the game off center.

it would be extreamly cool to have a 4th race maybe just for map creating ideas but i believe it would just be to difficult to impliment at this point.

maybe in another 12 years with SC3 lol

 

Oh you are completly right.

NOT

Just look at warcraft 3. Balance? no. Orc vs Undead is heavely unbalanced at a high skill lvl. But you probably forgot that Blizzard made warcraft 3?

Seriously DD, did you even read mine and RT's posts? Adding more depth lol? Chess isnt getting deeper by adding more pieces either!

 

No way man, we need to include checker pieces, too! That would make Chess a REAL deep game.

 

It's not just a matter of time, yes, Blizzard has had plenty of that, and continues to take as much as they'd like and fans still love them. But the simple matter is there is no economic/strength gap left for race X to fill. Sure, they'd be an alright non playable race, but a competitive race? No. I am not doubting the guys at Blizzard, they are sure to eventually find something to please us if they saw fit, but clearly they see that not only is there balance work, but there's nothing to add to StarCraft's philosophy of functionality. High end is taken, middle class is taken, and cheap pool is taken. What, do we need another middle class? Or unreasonably high end or low end class? Or one that makes no sense, such as lots of cheap, strong units? No, we don't. There's a reason for map editor, it's for people who want to make new things but also for the people who want to make things that they think will be great, but the larger portion including the fine folks at Blizzard do not. Indulge in your fantasies then.

 

You're merely reiterating what was stated some 8 or so pages back. We all know that there isn't another gameplay philosophy to exploit (if you think you've found one, you actually haven't). Now that the rest of you realise that even **if** there were a niche for a 4th race, the work associated with the conception and balance of another race would be prohibitive and incompatible with Blizzard's goal of creating the ultimate competitive RTS.

The only cogent argument that could be made in favour of a 4th race (and it's an argument that does have its merits, although proponents of a 4th race only just hit upon the idea) is that it would be a paradigm shift in terms of strategy. However, as I also pointed out about 9 bloody pages ago, Blizzard realised that they could implement strategic changes more easily by expounding upon the existing Triumvirate.

Addendum: everyone, stop using TRIFECTA to describe the existing trio of races; look up the definition of trifecta in a dictionnary: it's a bloody horse-racing term, as you all too obviously did not know. God, I'm beginning to assume TychusFindlay's peremptory tone... Where's that lad offed to now? He's so much better at it than me.

 

^ Way too many big words for my puny brain. I think he's agreeing that a 4th race is not a good thing?

On note, people who are wanting a 3rd race are wanting it mainly for a change of things. I think SCII has a huge change of things already! So many new/different units and abilities.....that will keep me busy forever.

 

Yes, Zealot, I have been reiterating what has been previously stated. However, it has not seem to have sunk in to some of the readers. Merely a refresher, that is all.

And yes, I personally think that Blizzard has hit that "sweet spot" with the changes. They've adjusted just an adequate amount of things to not be SC1 in 3D, but not so much it's a new game all together. I'll indeed spend enough time refurbishing my Terran strategy.

 

Too much change is a bad thing.

The three already have been altered massively.

 

So:

End Of Discussen!?

 

i am going to be an ego-tripper and say: moi

but seriously, thinking up new concepts isnt hard, thinking up workable concepts is. You could think up a thousand different concepts for a new race, from long-range artillery that doesnt fire itself, but is fired by another unit to a race made out of the sweat the other races shed when they are scared, but it wouldnt simply be as balanced as the simple three-race concept we are working with now

If we got a perfect 4th race it'd be great, it'd be awesome, it'd be a miracle of the modern age(hyperbole much?), but the chance we get a perfectly balanced, original and lorefitting 4th race is so incredibly small that i'd rather not have the chance being taken.