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The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

Discussion in 'General StarCraft 2 Discussion' started by Deus_ex_Machina, Feb 6, 2009.

The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

  1. Kimera757

    Kimera757 New Member

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    The "greater whole" of the xel'naga were wiped out, not all.

    The temple at Shakuras was almost certainly built after the zerg attacked the xel'naga.

    In two videos that will be found in StarCraft II, Zeratul straight out says the xel'naga return. It doesn't get more canonical than that.

    Zeratul talking about the xel'naga: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/41395.html

    Zeratul discussing the xel'naga with Raynor: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy...ft-ii-single-player-campaign-blizzcon-preview
     
  2. Windblade

    Windblade New Member

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    if there is a new race they will be in starcraft 3 - xel'naga or hybrids
    EDIT: clarification - new PLAYABLE race

    good day
     
  3. Space Pirate Rojo

    Space Pirate Rojo New Member

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    Canada, eh?
    A fourth race would be awkward for Starcraft, more so than the switch from Warcraft 2 to 3.
     
  4. Kimera757

    Kimera757 New Member

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    From August 2008, a few months before the trilogy announcement:

    Frank Pearce: “We don’t have the resources or time to add a fourth race to the launch of StarCraft II, but I’m sure in the event that we decide to do an expansion set it’s a feature that’ll come up for discussion,” the company boss told VG247."

    Link: http://www.vg247.com/2008/08/29/pearce-fourth-starcraft-ii-race-may-be-added-by-expansion/

    Personally, I doubt there will be a playable xel'naga faction (at least in terms of multiplayer). They'll be in the campaign almost certainly, though.

    Karune, Q&A Batch 13: "we are planning to explore the mysteries surrounding the Xel'naga for the single player campaign. In the campaign you will encounter several unique units that would not otherwise be seen in multiplayer."

    (This was in response to a question about hybrids.)

    I think a xel'naga and/or hybrid mini-campaign would be cool, though, sort of like the scrin mini-campaign in Command & Conquer: Tiberium Wars.
     
  5. This is Blizzard PR at it's best :D The trilogy idea was pretty much agreed upon by then. This is why I tell people not to worry when Blizzard says things like "hopefully, we'll get a beta out this year if all goes well".
     
  6. ZealotInATuxedo

    ZealotInATuxedo New Member

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    Agreed! Although, to be fair, WC3's 4 races are superior to the original 2 races from WC.
     
  7. overmind

    overmind Active Member

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    Not quite right, the xel'naga were attacked while they were attempting to leave, on the ground before protoss had space flight because of the disappearance of the Khala. The zerg (on Zerus not Char) where one species, the zerg parasite, that the xel'naga greatly enhanced and created the overmind which in time became sentient and attacked the xel'naga world ships while they were in orbit over Zerus, the 'greater whole' of the xel'naga was wiped out while they were watching their creations.

    Oh, story here.

    An 4th race should be very old, an ancient enemy of the Xel'naga, for this i think cyborgs of some discription would suit a lot better than robots.

    I am also against adding a fourth race for reasons already discussed by other members in full, unless of course you can provide a good overlook of the way your robots would play.
     
  8. This discussion brings back childhood memories of sitting down to read the StarCraft manual for long hours. Good times ... I have high hopes for StarCraft 2's manual :D
     
  9. Space Pirate Rojo

    Space Pirate Rojo New Member

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    Canada, eh?
    Hrm. That is kind of a null idea, since the change was so dramatic in RTS style, it's a bit hard to compare Orcs and Humans against Orcs and Humans again, but with Night Elf and Undead.

    And this isn't really the topic for it, but it is something to consider for a bit.
     
  10. ZealotInATuxedo

    ZealotInATuxedo New Member

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    Considering that the orcs and humans from WC2 were, with a few notable exceptions, virtually clones of each other, no, it's not much of a stretch to say that the more polished orc and human factions from WC3 are superior from both the perspectives of strategic and unit diversity to their orc and human counterparts of WC2; that there are two additional factions in WC3 is irrelevant: you can still compare how orcs vs humans plays out in-game, and contrast the units' rosters. I would go so far as to say that Blizzard, back in '95, were incapable of creating truly diversified factions. Nevertheless, WC2 was a truly important stepping stone in Blizzard's evolution as a developer of epic RTS games.


    Now, back to the main debate: you all know my opinion about a competitive 4th race, but there would be several interesting options for a 4th race in a campaign:

    1)the hybrids (Blizzard has stated that they will explore the mystery of their origins and purpose)
    2) the Xel Naga. It would seem that they will be making a dramatic entrance on the SC stage. Many seem to think the Xel Naga are returning to wipe out the Zerg or some other benevolent purpose. However, personally, I hope they turn out to be indiscriminate galactic inquisitors come to purge the universe of their ''failed'' creations.
    3) the possibility of an ancient Xel Naga foe has been mentionned before. Such a race could be interesting or total fromage; if the writers managed to give players the sense that its a cosmic battle, it could be a success.
    4) one of the so-called ''lesser species, such as the Kalathi. Frankly, I'd rather not see this play out: for me the Terrans will always be the ''youngest'' race.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  11. freedom23

    freedom23 New Member

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    Could you possibly outclass the protoss as it is right now?? If Xel'naga is to say that they are the final step to evolution then I'd say, Protoss and Zerg are bounded by limitations whereas terrans will slowly progress to the further infinites of evo but id say it would also probably be a 10% chance considering that they will exist in that time.. coz if we look at it in a moral aspect way, the goverment plays a major role for each races like the zerg (communism), protoss (parliamentary) and terran (democrats) - which always puts a risk in the human race triggering them to devour each other as a means of survival...

    Anyway what Im saying is that if I would expect a 4th race... it definitely has to be something like the AI you were talkin about... i just wonder though how would any of those other races would effect the storyline especially for the humans, since they dont have anything to do with them from the start ( i could see greed )
     
  12. the8thark

    the8thark New Member

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    I'd say it's more like this:

    Zerg: Communism but closer to a colony of bees or ants.
    Terran: A bunch of rival tribes or factions waring against each other for dominance, or a feudal dictatorship.
    Protoss: Religious Autocracy. As in their ancient religion dictates their every aspect of their lives, even they way their government or conclave works. They rule according to their strict religious guidelines.
     
  13. orestul

    orestul New Member

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    Referring to the original idea, this AI people would not be good, because they are just a copy of terrains, but instead of marines a bunch of Goliath walking around shooting everyone. As for any other idea about a hybrid race, that would create an unbalanced race, which is the last thing that blizzard wants. Just imagine this. Every race is just as powerful as the other just because they are unique. If you make a hybrid, meaning combine two races, that would be just repeating different abilities of these races, which would make the hybrid race either more powerful, or the more probably one, weaker.
     
  14. ZealotInATuxedo

    ZealotInATuxedo New Member

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    Well, the idea would be to TRY to make an original race, NOT repeat previously established units or gameplay...
     
  15. orestul

    orestul New Member

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    The problem is that the races that starcraft already has are balanced and complete, and if you add another one, then it will be really strange to play, and the abilities will have to repeat.
     
  16. Deus_ex_Machina

    Deus_ex_Machina New Member

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    :daydreaming:

    Ok Tuxedo, you made some more statements against an AI race, just like about all the people that reply to this post. Except, that I see potential in you. I get the feeling that you are gradually seeying the clarity of what lies beyond the blur that the curtain presents...something the other folks don't deem worthwhile. That is why I don't even bother replying to they statements since I know exactly what their next moves are. But you and I have been at this for quite some time...this going back and forth, and I will continue until you can step all the way thru the curtain, even if it's just for a brief time. When that happens, I will leave you with your thoughts.

    So, without further ado, here we go...

    :)


    Bloody hell! I though you were going to bring this up! So I thought of something...I'm not surprised Blizzard came up with this reasoning, given the work and ingenuity they would need to pull off such a stunt! Ya, I like to think that implementing this 4th AI race is sort of like pulling a stunt on xx-girlfriend: You gotta do it now else it may be too long before you get another shot. Well, where was I, ya, Blizzard has just given you the reason you expected from them. Hey, it flows right along and just about everybody agrees, so what's the problem...sigh.


    I missplaced the period of that sentence, and thus that new phrase of thought. But I don't regret it...hehehe


    What makes you so sure that "they've exhausted the three main gameplay philosophies? So tell! Give me some dough on this.

    Ya you seem to be running your mouth out of desperation / frustration. After all, how does this have anything to do with pulling stunts and xx's and with SC for that matter?


    "Ok, let's get this straight: you haven't presented any proof of any kind." Ya, right back at you pal!
    Tuxedo, who do you think you are to make such a short sighted statement: "there are no other truly unique gameplay philosphies that CAN be developped"...Well, how about this: [Mr. I know the limits of the universe] assumptions never did anyone any good.

    To say that adding a 4th race to SC is going to take away from the existing three races is like saying that we are the most intelligent creatures of the universe because we don't know otherwise. How does that make you feel Mr. charm?

    DUDE, the three existing races as not TRULY balanced, a 4th race would accomplish this as I attempted to explain on my previous week's reply. The matter of the fact is that three does not balance as well as four. Let me give you a glimpse into this: Both Terrain and Protoss make units singly from specific buildings as opposed to only the zerg not. Terrain and Protoss have static "supply depot/pylon, they share air units with similarities in weaponry as in wrath/scout fire missiles, corsair/valkaries cause wide splash damage, carrier/battlecruiser have powerfull hit points, science vessel/arbiter are "flying magic ships". Then there is the reaver/tank in that both have a "slowness start to their firepower" one has to make scarabs, the other go into siege mode and both cause splash damage to ground units, the zerg has nothing like this. You can see where I am going with this...can you make such similarity comparisons with the zerg? Ya, I didn't think so. But, there are a few, but not nearly as many.
    Thus, one of the logics behind a 4th race is to balance out the spreadsheet so to speak...to put in one more race that slightly mimics the zerg like the terrain slightly mimic the Protoss or vice versa.
    The zerg stands out like a sore thumb against the other two races, whereas the same cannot be said for the Terrain against the other two races or the Protoss against the other two races, because the Terrain and Protoss share more similarities with each other than the zerg. Thus a 4th race would fill in this "gap" and share some similarities with the zerg only. Are we starting to board on the same ship, mate?


    You sound like a broken record.


    Oh brother. You are starting to worry me. You should know by now that this is not my intention. Such a scenario is unworthy a cause.

    You are reverting to this silliness again! It makes you look like a squirmer.


    "...some thought uh....". Yeah, I can see that...sigh


    Remember what this gal put out:
    Originally Posted by orestul:
    If you make a hybrid, meaning combine two races, that would be just repeating different abilities of these races, which would make the hybrid race either more powerful, or the more probably one, weaker.

    QUOTE=ZealotInATuxedo :222320 Well, the idea would be to TRY to make an original race, NOT repeat previously established units or gameplay...[/QUOTE]

    Yes, that's much better Tuxedo! And this is a good example of just how shallow the others are in dealing with this thread.

    Cheers,
     
  17. Triceron

    Triceron New Member

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    Deus_ex_Machina,

    Despite what you think about the 3 races not being balanced, that is the whole appeal of Starcraft. The indirect comparisons drawn between each of the 3 races is what makes the game unique.

    If you wanted a 'gap filler' race, Starcraft would look a lot more like Warcraft 3, where you had essentially 4 unique races with 2 set standards (Humans/Orcs build style, Night Elves/Undead build style) and comparable units (Humans/Undead unit setup, Night Elves/Orcs unit setup)

    Granted it's not impossible to have a 4th race, the fact is your suggestion does little to offer an explanation of how it would be unique other than the idea of it being 'similar to Zerg, but not really'. Warcraft 3's 4 Race setup works well because Warcraft has always been based on parallel factions. Orcs vs Humans, Elves vs Trolls, Dwarves vs Goblins etc.

    Starcraft does not follow these rules. A zergling is not directly comparable to a marine. A zealot is not directly comparable to a hydralisk. Your assumption that a 4th race is needed for balance holds no ground.

    As does Scourge

    As does a Guardian or Devourer

    As is a Queen that can cast Ensnare, cast Parasite and kill single target units with Spawn Broodling

    Until Brood War where they added the Lurker, a unit that must be burrowed before it can attack, similar to the transition of a Siege Tank's power. This unit also deals splash damage to ground units.

    Keep in mind that each race's counterpart works uniquely and are not on the same parallel. A Reaver is just as different to a Siege Tank as a Lurker would be. A Carrier is just as different to a Battle Cruiser as a Guardian or Devourer would be.


    If a 4th race exists, it should not be to fill a gap. It should add to the diversity of the current 3 races. For 100 minerals, you can get 4 zerglings, or 2 marines, or 1 zealot. In this example, each faction is represented by its most basic unit. Zerg emphasizes weak units in swarms, Terrans emphasize practical units that are ranged, Protoss emphasize tough, specialized units. In this simple example, what would 100 minerals buy as the AI race's standard trooper? What would this AI race represent?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  18. freedom23

    freedom23 New Member

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    Wait Wait Wait... there seems to be some errors on that comment.. and i dont like quoting so ill just give my whole thought of it..

    * Never has the scourge did splash damage in my years of playing starcraft, did a new version changed it?
    * Rather you should have compared it to the devourer which gives the splash acid effect for bonus damage
    * Does the Brute ultralisk deserve better of getting the title meatshield along with BC and carrier??
    * Its quite difficult to make a 4th race if you will base it on details such as the 100mineral unit purchase

    100 mineral breakdown

    Zerg = 4 zerglings
    Terran = 2 marines
    Protoss = 1 zealot
    ??? = 3 food?? (its so visible that its somewhere between economic and fair in power) lol - hybrid definitely

    Other than that your point is absolute that a fourth race ie. Hybrids / Xelnaga / AI - should be bounded by that law to be unique in all aspects that it could be...

    In the basic chain of balance we will always see a triangular formula for power and has been a aspect of starcraft that made it unique.. all in all there is only a small chance for another race if we will be bounded by that law to follow the rules of balance....

    But I like surprises and i want to see the 4th race even as an npc or enemies only atleast, like the Legion in WC only defined in this game...
     
  19. overmind

    overmind Active Member

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    How in the world can you charge 33.33* minerals each unit? ;)
     
  20. freedom23

    freedom23 New Member

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    lol ovie, i said its 3 food for 100 minerals, it doesnt pertain that its totally gonna be 3 units.. its not about the math but its gonna be like this..


    ill give two options since this are fictional ideas anyway...

    Xelnaga example class (ultra-advance tech)

    100 minerals, 1.5 food (debateable)
    will get them 1 Psyquee - unit that attacks by the range of 3 (air and ground 6+2 damage) that animates as a psychic discharge like the corsair, like a mental blast, their the basic unit of the xel naga, they can levitate the ground like archons. and have the ability to produce 2 hallucination of himself that attacks a third of his damage and has the 3rd of his life for an amount of time.. drawback is the psychic entities takes more dmg.

    example no.2

    Hybrid (mix-type tech)

    100 minerals 1.5 food (same case)
    yields them hybrids the Adaptor - instantly produces 3 bio-mechanical melee spiked balls (4+1 ground only) that attacks melee by bumping its foe with its spiked armor, the skill for the unit is called ~assemble~ the requirement is for 3 adaptors to be able to do tthe skill - it will enable them to transform as one unit adding their damage together and enabling them to thrust their spikes in a range of 5.

    anyway my point is that its unique and non-repetetive.. and the food or whatever might still be the same but as long as the way the unit is played gives more value to me as being unique.