The case for a 4TH RACE on third game release

Well, I don't see your point very clearly about an artificial intelligence race being muchlike a synthetic version of the zerg.
How can it resemble the Zerg more than Terrain resembles Protoss?
When you compare all three races, in my opinion, Protoss and Zerg have the most differences. In other words, Protoss is significantly more similar to Terrain than it is to Zerg.
All I am trying to show here is that there is indeed room for another race that can resemble the zerg a bit but then fully as an artificial intelligence, same as the Protoss resemble the Terrain in some ways.

 

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I for one would like to see a 4th race. Dont care who it is.

And if I had it my way. It would be a super power race. Yeah I know I already hear you people crying, "balance balance balance"!

Screw balance for just once.

Going up against a super power race I think would make the game more interesting. It would force you to make a tough decision such as:

"Do I build a strong defense and hope it can hold off their attacks thus wearing them down"?

"Do I build up a small army and attack them before they get too strong"?

"Do I do both"?


Okay now you're saying ,"well how do you balance it out"?

Simple.

This super power race will only have a few units and structures. And though they are powerful, they are also very expensive.

But that's just my wish. I know it will never happen. With everybody so worried about balance.

 

tera, were talking about a fourth race for multiplayer though.

I personally dont mind a 4th OP race in singleplayer, but it would screwup the multiplayer if it was included. If the race were imbalanced and too powerful, no one would play the other races in multiplayer due to having a handycap against them when facing that race.

 

And you're talking about SC? That's like saying screw bling bling I want proper physics in the next NFS.
No just for once, no just anything. Slack isn't an entry in Blizzard's vocab. They will be true to their original aims at all times. And will still manage to make the game fun.

I've already posted my opinion on the subject.

 

So, this AI race, all on its own, would ''bring significant strategic depth'' to StarCraft 2? Gosh, you know, I always felt that despite being not only one of the best selling RTS games of all time, but one of the most lauded and longest lived that, yes, it IS strategically shallow, and clearly what's kept everyone playing StarCraft all these years are its awesome pixel graphics.

While it's good to know that you're not just concerned with implementing a ''cool robot race'' into the game, frankly, that's what I was thinking as I read your posts. This robot race of yours strikes me as a mix between the factions in Total Annhilation and the Zerg: ergo, it's not terribly original, is it? Now, those who argue that this AI race is, by its very nature, not terribly original are neither here nor there: there's nothing original about the 3 current races (at least lore-wise): Blizzard themselves have admitted they took the three most popular race archetypes in science-fiction, and adapted them for their own purposes.

So, we're supposed to be wanting to sample this scrumptious new AI race, aye? The 'toss'ed salad, Teherran figs, and the rich desserg weren't tasty enough for you? What is it our strategic taste-buds should be anticipating? Do tell!

Mate, read that quote over again; it's pregnant with arrogance: have any of us earned your condescending remarks about what or what we cannot grasp? I expected you to elaborate on how you were going to actually make StarCraft 2 into a ''deep strategic experience'', and instead you took a crap on my intellect, and vaunted your superior mind. But since you obviously entertain thoughts the rest of us can hardly comprehend for our lack of grey cells, I'm certain that your hyper-advanced acumen will comprehend this: If Blizzard had made StarCraft with 3 Terran factions rather than 3 races, but still used the 3 distinct approaches and philosophies that each race has, well, the actual gameplay would have been just as strategically deep. Yes?

Allow me to expound on this thought: the Zerg are rabid, grotesque monsters, and the Protoss are noble and enigmatic bipeds, and your AI race would be burnished killing machines. You do, of course, realise that the units' exterior forms and the lore of each race are purely cosmetic touches to the game and have nothing to do with the actual gameplay? How then would an AI race contribute to gameplay in any way? Simply because they ARE an AI race, as you seem to be suggesting? And maybe my brain is as slow as an old Pentium 1, but I fail to understand how you've proven that your AI race adds to the strategic facet in any way. Oh sure, it's a race of robots or whatever so they're not technically ''alive'' as you've pointed out too many times now, but the fact that they're not alive is only a cosmetic difference.

Rather than presenting a gameplay philosophy, you've given some in-game examples that, frankly, sound like they were pulled from TA or SupCom or some such game that involves giant robot armies having a go at it. Considering that you haven't offered a radically different gameplay philosophy to the 3 classic races and insist on an AI race (you said that the Xel Naga were too similar to the 'Toss, remember?***), I respectfully suggest that you're more enamoured with the possibility of having an AI race in StarCraft than bringing about any ''significant strategic changes''. If you want to make a new race, that's good and I wish you the best o' luck, but I suggest that you develop a gameplay philosophy first; the nature of the race and its lore are, if you are truly concerned with nurturing a strategic experience, of secondary importance.

***If a distinct gameplay philosophy were implemented for the Xel Naga, their physical similarities to the Protoss would merely be cosmetic (although by expecting the Xel Naga to look like the Protoss, we're assuming the Xel Naga were as dumb as God and created the Protoss in their own image. Whose to say they don't look like the Zerg? But I digress.). Another example: Blizzard could, if they wanted, bring back the UED, but develop not only new units for them but also a distinct gameplay philosophy, and it wouldn't adversely affect the strategic depth; it's besides the point to suggest that many fans would be disappointed/upset by the redundant use of the Terran race. And while I'm on it, that's WHY there are only THREE races in the first place: Blizzard could only develop 3 truly unique gameplay philosophies --StarCraft 2 will merely be elaborating on each race's distinct nature. In fact, they discussed adding a 4th race, and decided against it, for gameplay reasons.

Now, there is a solution to your dilemma, of course: if you really want an AI race in StarCraft, the editor will always be at your disposal. In fact, there's already one race that employs robotic AI-ish units: the Protoss. Perhaps you would consider creating a campaign in which a crackpot Protoss scientist's robotic creations run amock (please do credit me if you decide to use this highly original narrative!).

Concluding thoughts: There is no case for a competitive 4th race, not for balance reasons but because truly unique gameplay philosophies have already been established, and there doesn't seem to be any particularly distinct philosophy that would apply to a 4th race. I think that Blizzard made the right choice to concentrate on the 3 races we have, as a 4th race would be an amalgamation of what's already been done, and StarCraft would have started to resemble those games that have many races, races that play out like the obviously incestuous cousins that they are.

It would also appear that new exotic ganges beef Deux Ex Machina used as a metaphor earlier on appeals to him, but I think he's just about the only one whose dying to try it. Bon appetit!

 

Sir Tuxedo shall we? I have read your reply carefully and taking everything you said into consideration, I still don't think you fully grasp the situation at stake here. Is three an even number? I thought so, and yes four makes a nice cross...hehe.

Blizzard did not opt out for a fourth race due to gameplay reasons. They did so because of the unprecedented headache and imagination that would be required to execute it...Do you seriously think Blizzard wants to go through all the turmoil of developing the likes of an original Starcraft all over again? Of course not, and that is why there is no fourth race. Else, they'll have to dig for the think tanks, and that is serious business.

You see, I think you did not dig deep into the root of what makes for distinct gameplay, Tuxedo. But you sure put out numerous reasons and logical reasons against putting down a fourth race of alternative intelligence design. Reasons that I agree with, but these reasons just aren't good enough if you can see what they are up against.

Fortunatly, as with many things out there, it's the reason that trumps all others that defy it, or, the many reasons that defy the single reason...In other words, just because you found all these reasons agaisnt it, doesn't mean that a single other reason can't trump em all.

You know what, I'm not going to get into any more details on this. This is one of those things you gotta figure it out on your own, cause there's no point in baby feeding you my logic any more. if you're up to it, you can do this, by first of all, telling your brain that you believe there is a nitch for a 4th race (even if you don't) and then think real hard for ways to make it work. This is a process that should take a half hour or so per day in the span of several weeks, and thus, you like the rest, aren't going to bother with it. You'd have to be crazy to follow thru with something like this. Heck, that's Blizzards job! If Blizzard had not decided to split the game up into three releases, I wouldn't have made this post. But since that is not the case, I think Blizzard has the time on their side to make a 4th race on the last game release, which could come out 4 years from now for all I care. After all, it takes time to make the impossible happen.

I can only explain as far as my writting abilities allow, and I doubt we have compatible thought process communication, if you get my drift? For example, somebody (me) is trying to explain to you a theory, but we both do not have compatible thought process, so you just don't get what I'm saying. On the other hand someone else (let's say a woman) explains to you the same daamn theory and you get it right off the bat. Then you think, what the hell's wrong with that other guy? Why did he not explain it this way to me. He must not understand what he is talking about...FREAK...hehe.

By the way, I appreciate the time you put into this post....doen't happen much these days. You know how people are, if we don't pressure Blizzard for a forth race, it ain't gonna happen, after all, doing the unexpected is risky, or worse, "unecessary".

 

Blizzard pulled it off with Warcraft 3, and it worked really well for them. I think that Starcraft should stay at three though. The more races you have, the more similar they become. I like the trifecta of Terran, Zerg, and Toss. Rather than do more races for the sake of more races, I'd rather just see expanded versions of the original three with a few more units.

 

Either way the new race would only be for single player Blizz would have to do way to much balance work to make it fair in multiplayer.

 

sooner or later be it sc2 expansion, sc3, sc4 there will be a new race. its not about balance its about having the time to make a new race. everything can be balance and unique at the end of the day. I for one can imagine 6 races in starcraft that are perfectly balance and unique respectively. you just need to be open and imaginative.

anyway im hoping for the UED and xelnaga will be the new races. both of these will surely expand the unierse and lore of starcraft.

 

An idea for another race, I wonder...

I have a radical base infantry idea, hopefully a good enough specimen to be fitted with Marine, Zealot and Zergling. In concept, this unit is an infiltrator, having an innate passive ability named Intangibility. Intangibility activates after 3 seconds of idle/non-attacking, making the unit semi-transparent. Under this ability, the unit has no collision size, allowing it to move through units and buildings unhindered. It will become tangible again when attacking.

Intangibility does not make the unit invisible, and while the unit is under this effect it has reduced speed and can be killed from normal damage. So, it is a very powerful tool because this unit can bypass early Supply Depot walls, but easily countered by even the earliest units built by the enemy.

I would imagine it being around 75 HP, small ranged of 2, ground only, 7 damage, 75 minerals, 1 supply.


-Psi

 

erm, @deus.
The goal of this game is not to make a distinct game with distinct gameplay, the goal is to create a game with starcraft-like gameplay.

 

Uhm, actually, the following is what Blizzard stated about implementing a fourth race in StarCraft II:
''[We want to focus on] the cool, best ideas on the existing three races rather than diluting those ideas across four races.'' --Frank Pearce. Secondly, Blizzard also suggested that they had neither the time nor the resources. So there are their reasons for not putting in a 4th race: they felt a 4th race would exist at the expense of the 3 others and the whole development process. Now, they've also gone on record that ''in the event that we decide to do an expansion set it's a feature that'll come up for discussion''. However, I can't see them implementing a truly profound 4th race after 3 initial releases (SC Vanilla, SCBW, SC2) expounded on only 3 races.

Riiiight. What are my reasons up against? Do tell!

God, you obviously suffer from a bad case of logorrhoea. Well, what is this Argument To End All Arguments of yours?

So, after all that teasing and hinting that you had an argument that trumped all my arguments, you're NOT going to tell me what this argument is? That is PRICELESS. And babyfeeding me logic? Give me a break, mate. You haven't presented any of your arguments in a logical format, and if you fancy that you have, then I suggest you take an introductory course on Logic. This is your version of Logic:

1) I, Deus Ex Machina, recognise the legitimacy of Zealot's arguments.
2) However, I'm not happy with Zealot's conclusions.
ergo: I will suggest to Zealot that there ARE reasons to think an AI race is the best idea since disposable diapers, yet not reveal them to him. I will then insult him, suggesting that he STILL hasn't grasped my complex ideas. I will then continue to suggest that my arguments are perfectly ''logical'', when in fact, in a lavish display of irony, I haven't actually refuted any of Zealot's arguments.

I concur with that idea: we don't think the same way at all. In fact, I wouldn't describe whatever happens inside your brain as ''a thought process''. I have presented all my arguments in a logical format, whereas, in bold contrast, your arguments are shy creatures and never present themselves. You've also continued to suggest that I can't understand what you're talking about, despite not presenting any arguments of your own, other than insults. Yeah, agreed, our thought processes are pretty incompatible, and yours is futile.

Now, I strongly suggest that you go read over where I discuss gameplay philosophy, and how you haven't presented one, and also that bit where I discuss how you come across as a 13 year old lad who just watched The Matrix and is, consequently, enamoured with the idea of robot armies.

 

The 4 factions in WC3 are fun, but too similar --like the factions in most RTS games; I think that WC3 has no where near the uniqueness of the 3 races from StarCraft, and that's one of the reasons why StarCraft proved to be more popular than WC3. I am, however, greatly anticipating WC4, and hoping that the graphics won't look like a Japanese anime series.

And I totally agree that they should concentrate on the 3 existing races, rather than attempting to add a 4th race for the sake of adding a 4th race, like Deux Ex Machina. Scratch that, what he really claimed was that his AI race, all on its little lonesome, would actually make SC2 into a strategic experience...

 

Bring in some more of the good stuff

YES, and has it come across to you that this means that there is still one more popular race archetype out there from science-fiction that Blizzard has not used yet and can thus adapt it to their own purpose. Yes mate, you guessed it! This is the AI race!

Yes! so what is stopping them from legitimately putting in a new distinct game phylosophy in the form of a 4th race? Nothing, they just don't want to deal with the hassle. Why would they? Most people aren't bothered by it, unfortunately.

Uhh, like you said, the AI will simply represent the units' exterior (the cosmetic touch) and would do a good job in providing a nice variety to the existing three race cosmetics. Look at it this way, if you have an all organic race (zerg) then where is the all artificial race? Do tell!
Do you honestly think that no more distinct gameplay can be added by means of a fourth race else it would detract from the existing three?! Oh man, you must not have much of a grasp at imagination! I mean seriously, give me a break! But i still love you mate!

Yes! You are starting to see the light! My goal here is not to develop a game phylosophy for this 4th race, but to show that it is more than feasible and should happen.
Think about it mate! Blizzard is going to have three separate SC2 games on store shelves! Well, ok Blizzard go ahead and be that way, but then give us a 4th race for crying out loud! Just adding more campaigns and a few new units for each of the three original races just ain't that exciting. Perhaps, instead of putting in all these extra units for the three existing races, add an entire new race! You see, I believe that it's better to add a 4th race than to add all these units on the existing three races...this lends to propensity of repetitiveness/less uniqueness in the units.

Well, you know what I'm going to say about this....maybe they should have stuck with just 2 races that way they are universally and mathematically opposite and most trully unique. That's another point that can be made for adding a 4th race. Because three, is not a balanced sheet if you, TUXEDO, can see beyond your logic of the universe. Four races will balance out any mitigation of uniqueness that exist with having added that 3rd race. I think that this is one of those logics that you either understand or you don't....and consequently think I'm a mofo.

There doesn't seem to be any particularly distinct philosophy that would apply to a 4th race. Oh man, I guess you really aren't kidding! You really believe this stuff...WOW. I couldn't disagree more. This entire thread is based on this, and if you aren't willing to think outside the box then I can see why you are so adamant against a 4th race.

Again, I strongly believe that the solution to uniqueness in SC2 lies not in adding greater number of different units to the existing three races, but instead in adding a 4th race, and thus, keeping the total unit count for each race to 10 or so.
Example: 10 x 4= 40 units total for entire SC2 beween 4 races as opposed to 40 units total between three races.

Good luck Tuxedo, cause you're gonna need it if I ever find you on Battle Net!

 

if there was to be a "4th race" (which i highly doubt), it would be the Xel' naga, and nothing else. they were the predessecors to the zerg and protoss, since they created both. they are going to make a appearance, just probably not actual gameplay-wise.

 

Here's my thoughts on an AI race.

AI is a Sci Fi archetype that hasn't been used by Blizzard for the SC universe. The SC Universe is highly influenced by many different sources, and AI is a highly plausible choice. There are many sources which can be drawn from.

However, I don't believe AI works in the SC universe due to the thematic relationship between the three races. AI is representative of an uncontrollable threat. In most Sci Fi sources that feature an AI foe, the situation is usually Man vs Machine. We fear what we do not control, and AI plays a great part in being an uncontrollable force that imposes upon mankind.

This thematic archetype is already represented by the Zerg, who are simply a biological version of this uncontrollable threat. The Zerg thematically represent everything that AI would in a Sci Fi setting, namely that of Skynet or the Matrix. AI is usually represented as autonomous and controlled by a single entity or 'hive mind'. AI continually adapts and evolves both physically and strategically. To have both Terminators and Aliens in the same movie would be redundant, as both of these examples lack in any sort of distinct personality. It'd be mindless army vs mindless army.

Ultimately I don't think AI would offer much as a 4th race other than for ****s and giggles. The current setup of the ancient and technologically advanced Protoss, highly adaptive Terrans and mindless swarm of the Zerg are currently a perfect balance in theme. The idea for AI would have to be given a completely new identity to fit in.

 

I could see an Ai race or something similar fitting in lorewise. There are rumors that the xel'naga may have created the toss and zerg to fight against an unknown enemy. I don't believe this is canon, but the AI could fit into that unknown enemy spot. It also could have been another creation from the xel'naga, who like the zerg, freed itself from the xel'naga's control.

Though I don't think a fourth race except the xel'naga will fit in SC2 since they want people to have the same feel as if they were playing SC1, but it's highly likely that they'll add another race if they make a SC3.

 

I can see the 4th race being the xel'naga because they already fit into the sc universe.

 

I pointed out to those who were calling your AI race idea ''unoriginal'' that there was nothing original, at least from a lore point of view, about the three original races; believe it or not (and I know this may sound incredible to you), I was fully aware, like everyone who knows anything about science fiction as a genre, that robots are a well established archetype.

No, it's not because they ''don't want to deal with the hassle''. I provided you a bloody quote in my second reply about how they feared diluting their ideas if they implemented a 4th race, and consequently, opted not to make said 4th race.

Stop quoting me out of context: it's a delay tactic worthy of a demagogue. I stated that with the three races they've exhausted the three main gameplay philosophies, not actual gameplay ideas: in fact, they're elaborating on new gameplay ideas with the new units that will be introduced in StarCraft2. Pardon this logical fallacy, but I must say it: I have much more of ''a grasp at imagination'' than you do of English grammar.

My argument consists of the following: there are no other truly unique gameplay philosphies that CAN be developped, and all other races after the original three, in some way, would borrow from one or all of the other races. Faced with that undesirable fact, why would Blizzard bother making a 4th race? That's not to say that interesting ideas such as new units and game mechanics can't be developped, but I'd much rather have new units for the 3 existing races than 12 new units from some motley gang posing as a 4th race. Have you ever played Dawn of War and its expansions? Is that what you want StarCraft to degrade into? Understand that I enjoy Dawn of War, but its races resemble each other far too much.

Ok, let's get this straight: you haven't presented any proof of any kind.

No, no no! What you're suggesting is to throw any new unit into a robot suit, and voila! a new race, and it'll all come out in the wash. All these new units they're adding will polish the original game, and are designed specifically for each race that they'll serve.

I think you're a mofo? No... I think you come across as a 13 year old kid in love with the idea of robot armies.

Look, I was once keen on a 4th race just like you, but after some thought I realised that ultimately a 4th race would come at the expense of the 3 others. Blizzard also realised that when they discussed adding a 4th race in SC2. I hope you will too. Now, I'd enjoy playing custom races designed by fellow players, and I'm sure that some players will do so and will design some interesting stuff, but it'll never be as good as the 3 original races.

We could develop 10 more units for each race, but opt to play with only 12-14 for each race at a time (that's how many are in Brood War). That would certainly keep the gameplay fresh.

Thank you for an intelligent reply. I see that you put more time and thought into this last reply, as you haven't made any grandiose claims about an AI race single handedly making StarCraft 2 into a strategic game.

 

Actually, i have read on many occasions(stuff like wikipedia) that the xel' naga reached the very last step in evolution. this last step included terraforming, and creating new races. the xel' naga were then set out to create the "perfect" race, which phsonic capabilities. they at first landed on Auir, were they found the indigenous peoples of Auir. the xel' naga took them and implemented them into one race, technologically advanced and sphonically advanced. they grew un-happy with their creating thought, and left. by that time, the protoss had just learned about space exploration. the protoss chased down and destroyed half of the xel' naga ships. the protoss considedred the xel' naga leaving as abondoning them, and a bad thing. the xal' naga soon after travelled to Char, where they took diffrent peacefull animales, and intergrated them into one hive, so they all could have one mind. they xel naga then created the overmind in their image, to look over the hive. agian, the naga left, and were chased down by the zerg. this time, little or none of the fleet got away. it is questionable that the xel' naga even exist now.