Terran Unit Roster: A Review (with suggestions)

Mercenaries are essentially fighters for hire -- soldiers of forture if you will. The Reapers are considered mercenaries because Reapers who survive two years of duty are granted a full pardon and freed. The Reaper reward and payment is freedom in return for his services to the military. It is not uncanny for governments to employ mercenaries to do their biddings. Do you remember the French Foreign Legion (France)? Blackwater USA (Pentagon)? Swiss Guard (Vatican City)? Hessians (Great Britain)?

All those mentioned are essentially mercenary groups, yet they operate under the influence of the entity who has hired them. The saying "Danger translates to big bucks" goes into effect here and the big bucks for the Reaper is the freedom, he oh so desires. If anything, it is a deliberate strategy to use mercenaries for "dirty jobs". The dirty job in this case, is that the Reaper is lightly armed and sees a life expectancy rate of less than six months of service.

I mentioned before that bars are usually the places to build up a rag tag militia or hire bounty hunters/mercenaries. By recognizing the use of Bars as platforms for recruitment, We can associate this fact with the Reaper "mercenary" concept itself.

 

hahaha enter the perfect scenario for the idea i had for a long time, i've always wanted the thor to be able to turn into a building and gain the ability to produce a unique unit, and has suggested this in several places, i just didn't know what unit the thor would produce... the discussion on thor and nukes suddenly hit me that the perfect unit to produce would be nukes.

because the thor has so much hp, people have said that the nuke must be weaker to compensate for the huge increase in difficulty for the opponent to kill the spotter. still there are argument that say even if the power of the nuke is reduced to the minimum level where it could still be acknowledged as a "nuke", it would still be too OP, making the nuke any weaker would make it more like artillery, which is also undesirable as the nuke should remain the single most powerful aoe attack.

arguments like the one below make valid points.

enter... thor the nuke factory, give thor the ability to launch nukes but only in its structural form (i.e. when it has turned into a building). while in building form, it can produce and store a maximum of 2 nukes. if a thor is currently in building form and has nuke stored, it cannot to turn back into unit form, it must be empty before it is able to turn back into a unit. this way nukes cannot be pre-built and launched immediately, meaning opponents will have more time to find and destroy the thor while the nuke is being built.

but where does thor get the material to produce nukes? an easy story to make up that answers the question is to say that the because of its massive size, the thors are powered by nuclear reactors to increase the efficiency and longevity, and the nuclear fuel used in the reactors can also be used to make nukes.

 

Good point. However, I think one of the other goals was to move your units as quickly as possible. After all, sometimes a player wouldn't have a mobile detector unit... in which case, it was even harder to kill the Ghost as potentially killing a Thor would be. As long as there is a satisfactory delay between the launch and notification of the nuke, to it actually striking, it should still be balanced.

Secondly, I don't think it really weakens the Ghost to go from nukes to D-8 charges. The primary attribute of the Ghost is stealth. The nuke greatly neutralizes that primary skill. As soon as a nuke notification goes off, players KNOW a Ghost is in the area and approximately where it is. However, with D-8 charges a Ghost could sneak into a base, plant a few charges and sneak off again - remember how long the delay is - by the time the explosions went off, the enemy would have no clue where the Ghost was... thus preserving the stealth role.

I guess I must not be communicating the thoughts very well, so I'ma just leave this issue alone. =]

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Hmm... the Thor/Nuclear Silo transform is an interesting idea. I think then however that you change the nuke from being an all around destruction factor to only being useful against bases. Because no units are going to be caught in the blast radius if you get to see the Thor transforming and prepping.

 

yes but in sc1 it's also very hard to get a bunch of units in the open with nukes. only less skilled players have their army sitting around doing nothing

 

It's not that the army has to be sitting around doing nothing... the opponent just has to be distracted. For instance when you sneak a Ghost in to take out enemy economy. If he sees the red dot, he's gonna move all his Probes. If he doesn't - boom, bye bye economy. But with a building being constructed, etc,etc... those Probes are going to be moved as a given.

I think the Nuclear Launch Detected message should still go off, and maybe a red dot on the map. But I think the Thor should continue attacking as normal. So players wouldn't have a clear tell-tale of where the nuke came from. That way, it preserves the frantic clicking to find the little red dot.

 

That's not what I said. I said resource cost isn't necessary a step down from energy cost, it doesn't mean that they are the same. And it doesn't make the thor a super unit like you suggest. Which is exactly why I think the balancing should be placed on the nuke itself as opposed to the nuking thor overall.

I think you're going into somewhat vague territory when you start arguing how is a nuke any different than artillery, damage is damage after all. But I think the nuke mechanic will at the very least, make the thor a bit more different from the siege tank than before. The very mechanic of the nuke is very different from artillery IMHO, but maybe that's just me. Energy vs resource cost, sustained barrage vs one-shot destruction, limited AoE vs FATmungous blast radius, I think are all differences. But the very fact that a thor can launch a nuke is a huge factor IMO. I think it would work.

 

I´ll use that when someone again treats the Thor like a oversized Siege Tank.

Of course it´s vague - turning it into "Metal Gear Thor" is a significant change from what we have seen of the Game yet. The use for both 250mm (Artillery is the Siege Tank) and the Thornuke as described would be the same: destroing key installations/immobile defenses. As I see it the nuke version would simply do significantly more damage. I´m afraid once the Nuke is sized down to fit the circumstances it would deal just as much damage as the 250mm in the same Radius.

 

If the 250mm is dealing high artillery damage in a small radius, then how is it different from siege tank focus fire? I see the nuke as at least having a greater distinguishing factor with a larger blast radius and much different mechanic.

As much as you like to believe otherwise, the tank and the current thor are really the same in function for the most part. They are both used for long range firepower as artillery, and they even share the same weaknesses against fast units and air. More HP only reflects the higher tech and cost resources, no one has to treat the thor as a tank because no one has to attack it instead of your other units. But with the nuke, the thor is actually a direct thread that you can't just ignore as a big pile of slow moving scrap metal.

I am hoping that by giving the nuke to the thor, the nuke and the thor both would be more useful. The nuke was not very useful, it needed to be changed anyway. With the thor spotting/launching the nuke, I would think now you at least have a better chance of pulling it off. The exact use could vary depending on the situation. It could be to deal a significant amount of damage over a large radius, to secure a strategically advantageous area, to assault poorly defended remote expansions with only the support of a few units, or whatever else.

The exact usage would be left to be seen, it's hard to limit its use right now as high damage over a large AoE can have many uses. But if your qualm is about the nuke being too similar to the 250mm, you should reexamine the situation. The nuke existed first, so if anything, you should want the 250mm to be removed from the game as it is redundant with the nuke. The fact is, both the ghost's nuke and the 250mm are not remarkable abilities in their current form, and their usefulness is questionable. But if you could accept the 250mm as a legitimate ability that's different enough from the nuke, I don't see why you are against making giving the nuke to the thor which is at the very least marginally better and more unique than the 250mm.

I was originally unsure and mostly neutral about giving the ghost the D8 time charge ability. However after reading NateSMZ's thoughts on it and the reasons he's given, I am now leading toward the idea. I am still trying to consider all the different aspects, but I think it's probably a great idea.

 

The problem isn´t that the nuke as it is now would be like the 250mm but that it would be once it is on the Thor.

But well, assuming we get the Thor as mobile Silo. What is the countermesure? Assuming you fail to destroy the Thor while it is being constructed, what can you do? If the aiming time is to short there is nothing you can do, too long and the Thor is useless again. Unfortunately these times depend a lot on the respective support and defending units. The ghost was a bit easier since it only took minimal firepower to take out a single ghost - even if supported (wich forfeits the cloak advantage).

Giving the Ghost a charge sounds fun - everyone loved the C&C commando. And that one wasn´t even cloaked!

 

Well, yes it was easy to take out a Ghost, once you found him. But don't overlook that aspect. Seeing as the Thor is a later tier unit, most likely the map will already be significantly scouted by the time the Terrans could field the Thor. Probably as soon as the Terrans begin constructing the Thor and certainly by the time they field one, or several, their enemies will most likely see. Unlike the Ghost, where you are not aware of the threat until certain death is on its way, enemies of the Terrans will see the Thor coming a mile away.

So it's not just a matter of - Thor launches nuke, message pops up, enemies frantically attack Thor, are unable to counter massive hit point totals and get their base pwned - rather, ppl will see the Thor coming long before it is ready to launch nukes. In which case, it's not unlike any other powerful unit. If I decide to build a fleet of Carriers, it's my enemies responsibility to find out about it and attack me before my fleet is ready and/or my Interceptors are equipped. If they sit around and wait for the full fleet to descend on them, they deserve to lose. And likewise, if a player sees another player building Thors, and doesn't get ready for them... then they deserve to lose.

They aren't a Tier 1 unit, there won't be any Thor rushes.

 

I like that approach and hope the Thor ends up being used like that - just without the nuke.

 

Back to square one LOL. Speaking with the utmost honesty, as things are now, when I play Terran I would never get the thor. There simply is no reason to. I would just get more siege tanks in place of the thor in equal foods.

A truth about the nuke, or any ability or unit as a matter of fact, is that it is much better to make compromises to make it more accessible rather that making it sound good on paper but never used in real games. The current form is an example of the latter, scout is one, infested terran is one, and the queen is yet another.

I rather that Terran players have a realistic chance at pulling off nuke strike in real games at a somewhat consistent rate, than for everything to say as is. All the concerns stated for the nuke can basically be said about the 250mm. If players can't kill off the thor in time, it means losing key buildings like the hive. Yes there is EMP and feedback, but unless the Zerg gets a energy depleting spell, Zerg is SoL. But if every race can counter thor's 250mm so easily, actually preventing it altogether in most cases, what is the 250mm even there for? With the nuke, you're at least looking at a real threat and a distinguished role for the thor. Although not a super unit by any means, the thor as a big tier 3 investment, IMO should at least be a thread if not one scary muthaf**ker. It will be sad if getting a thor meant "look, that fool got a downgrade on his tanks, lemme go grab EMP."

Unentschieden, do you actually realize what you say about the thor being a tank can only work if there is any reason to target it over other units? That is yet another reason why the nuke is better than the 250mm, it allows you to actually take advantage of thor's monstrous HP pool. Balance is something that can only come later, but even with all the reasons you've given, I fail to see why the nuke idea can't work. Conversely, looking at all the different factors and various aspects, I am inclined to believe that the nuke concept would be better than the 250mm design.

 

I know what you mean, I´m not against the Thornuke because I like 250mm better but because it would remove the nuke from the Ghost. I´d even accept a wacky "Thor carries - Ghost spots" approach wich would reduce aiming time depending on the position of the next armed Thor.

I´m also arguing under the premise that the Thor would be used like the Ultralisk, against Defenses that reached a certain critical point. Were the nuke on the Thor in that scenario it would change from a Threat to a counter.

In the Blizzcon coverage we saw that nukes "only" deal 400 damage suggesting that they are already "nerfed" for higher availability. It is also to note that you don´t need CCs anymore to store nukes, and there is quite a difference between 1 nuke and 2 nukes at the same time on different targets.

From my point of view Nukes would work a lot better on the Ghost than the Thor.

 

Hmmm, if that is the basis of you're argument then I don't really have anything to say against that.  I won't just flat-out discount all possibility that the nuke might have been improved and is now very useful.

I like the thor nuke idea, and I actually really like that the ghost would lose the nuke to maybe get a different ability, but all of that is based on the premise that the ghost nuke won't be hugely different from before.  But that's left to be seen.  If the ghost nuke is actually good in SC2, then that's at least one problem solved.  But regardless, I still think that the thor should be tweaked in some way, even if it's not the nuke.  In all honesty though, I don't see much of a possibility of Blizzard actually taking in any of this to change anything according to our ideas.

 

I think the nuke is just fine as it is

 

what about, it can walk over suplly depots?

 

Not bad but here's my thoughts. I don't agree with most of what you said about the thor but I do like the lift-off idea. That way if your playing an island map your thor's aren't sol. Generally speaking I think it's fine the way it is. It has a large amount of HP, can attack air, and does a good amount damage so I think it will be great for breaking through a well fortified perimeter. I'll admit it's weapons aren't that original but is that really such a big deal? Having it fire nukes (nerfed or not) sounds imba to me and making you pay for them too just isn't a good idea imo. It just introduces a bunch of problems like cost, number you can build, will there still be normal nukes, etc.

 

for some reasons i like the idea of giving the thor ability to launch a nuclear strike, but if this happens, how are terran players supposed to fire their nukes without alarming their enemies? the reason why nukes are operated by ghosts was because they are capable of stealth, they can sneak within enemy range and drop the missiles, once the nuclear launch warning appears, the enemy only has a few seconds to respond to search and destroy the ghost before the nuke sequence is complete. The thor was just to big to remain hidden from enemy sight, eliminating the opportunity for a surprise nuclear attack. and it will not be difficult for the enemy to bring it down before it even completes the nuclear count down.

 

The idea is that once the Thor is in place, if unchallenged, you're going to be blasted with a Nuclear Weapon.

Since all players know this is the capability of the Thor and they can see the Thor coming (it's so slow you'll probably have at least a couple minutes warning) they will have a chance to counter it. In fact, a much longer time than you would have for the Ghost.

God have mercy on the person who allows 2 or more to come into range.

 

I think the Thor is already powerful enough as it is. So is the nuke. If you combine the most powerful weapon with (possibly) the most powerful Terran unit it becomes topo powerful. The reason the Nuke is launched by a Ghost is so it can be countered. The Thor is a heafty unit and chances are you would never stop it from launching a nuke before it reaches your base.

We do NOT need an "I win" button