Terran Unit Roster: A Review (with suggestions)

Well I did make the 4th place in the Mineral Hunt, also the Arcade is... exploitable...

 

You just listed the damage the Siege Tank does in Siege Mode, yes? In comparing the two units Siege Mode does not match up against the Thor normal output, the Thor normal shot would be compared against the Siege Tank normal shot. Then compare the Siege Mode against Artillery Barrage. My impression was that the Thor was markedly more powerful in both modes.

So the Thor essentially costs equivalent to 2 Siege Tanks? I can't see why anybody would rather have 2 Siege Tanks when you could get a Thor instead. The redundant factor shows up big time methinks.

 

The Thors Barrage relies on Energy and thus is only available once or twice per skirmish. That would be to count the Yamato as the Battlecruisers main attack. The Siege Tank will be in Siege mode as often and long as possible, I never saw them in Tank mode for another purpose than moving.

 

would you need it more than that? the Barrage took out a Planetary Fortress in a few seconds... it looked like the power level of about 10 Tanks, not 2

 

On the contrary, I've seen tanks used in a number of micro situations. It's preferable to move, stop, move stop, when you need more concussive force. Good against Zealots when properly microed.

Also, Nate, we've all pretty much agreed that the video with the Thor's barrage was with the Thor using some sort of cheat to prolong its barrage simply for the effect.

Even a Thor shouldn't be able to take out a CC that quickly.

 

Thats why I meant they are used to move - would your scenario work if they were stationary?
Also these situations are to the tank users disatvantage - he makes the best out of the situation.

 

Welcome to the forums NateSMZ, I see that you put up some good posts already. Since I got here late, let me get my feedback, opinion, and ideas out of the way.

I personally don't really like the random merc idea. I like as little randomness as possible in SC. Even if it wasn't random but the same four each time, I would still rather have a single well developed unit than four quirky ones. Also, I believe it would be easier to balance a single unit thoroughly than four, especially if they were random.

I loved what you suggested for the ghost and thor. I have mixed feelings about giving the time charge to the ghost, but I don't completely dislike the idea. I agree with you about the thor, and giving the nuclear strike to the thor is an interesting idea. I think it could really work. But instead of increasing damage vs units, I think the damage should be decreased all around. Along with the decrease in the blast radius, and decreased damage vs buildings as you mentioned. The specifics on it would all depend on the cost, cooldown, and the actual execution. The easier it is to successfully utilize the nuke, the weaker the nuke should be.

I disagree that the thor is similar to the Zerg ultralisk, or that it would even be good at tanking at all. If it was designed to tank, it wouldn't have the offensive capabilities that it has, first of all. But quite frankly, it just wouldn't be able to tank period. The thor utterly lacks ground speed, and it functions as a ranged unit. No one has to attack the thor, and the thor can't chase anyone down to get in their faces either. I don't know who in their right mind would actually focus fire starting with the thor, with its high HP count.

As I've stated elsewhere, I like the lift-off idea. I think it makes good sense all around. I've never really like salvage to begin with, let alone make the thor salvageable. I think it was because they introduced it as 100% money back(is it still 100%??), which I think would definitely be problematic down the line. I can't imagine how letting Terran have zero liability on building any structure would not be imba later. Even cancelling a building under construction had a penalty.

With the medic, I'm not really sure how the new flare spell works, but I want the medic to have optic flare back. The only real use I can think of for the flare is to provide vision on enemy units attacking from high ground. But since that's a new mechanic Blizzard specifically implemented for SC2, I don't see much point in creating a spell just to negate that. I would rather have optic flare, but instead of blinding and reducing sight, which is useless, it should reduce the target's attack range down to 1 for a good duration(30 seconds or so). It would have a much better tactical application that way.

I don't think I need to go into how fugly the nomad is, the model is hated, enough said. What I do want to say is that I wish they would get rid of nano repair. It is somewhat redundant with the repair that Terran already has. But what's worse, it eliminates the need to micro. I also see spamming nano repair on already high HP units such as thor or BC to be problematic and annoying, especially in conjuction with defensive matrix. SCV repair already worked good and took some skill to utilize effectively near the frontlines, I really don't think the nano repair is needed or a good thing to have. Terran isn't about units that can survive the longest, Terran is about fragile units with high firepower, kill the enemy from a distance before they kill you. I would like to see the nomad with a spell that augments the firepower of a unit instead of nano repair.

The repair instead I think should be given to the dropship. I've suggested this idea quite a while back. I don't mean nano repair, SCV-style repair, or even an ability at all. I think it would be a useful as well as distinguishing feature if the dropship would gradually repair mechanical(perhaps even biological) units that it carries. Since Terran doesn't have any form of natural regen, this could be useful when your units are deployed to remote locations, such as in tank drops. Protoss and Zerg transports each have their own flavor and are multipurpose, I think auto-repair for the dropship would work well.

Hmmm... my post is getting long again. Anyway, great post NateSMZ, really well though out, organinzed, and full of interesting ideas. Here's a power up from me(as me), and I'm rewarding you 1000 minerals as a mod. Once again, welcome to the forums.

 

Wow very nice work there remy and how come the new guy has over 4000 mineral's!!! XD

 

oh... duh - should've thought of that myself... they boosted Mothership abilities to show it off afterall too

ahh, the increase vs. units was only because I geekily wanted to call the nuke a "neutron bomb", dunno if you know what those are - if not, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb

good thoughts on the Nomad

 

Maybe I should agree with Remy once in a while so I can get minerals too heh.

Completely agreed on the Random mercs. Though I´d like to have the option to hire Marine Mercs too, more expensive but instantbuild.

I don´t like to move the nuke to the Thor, it just isn´t the same without the Red Dot and "Nuklear Launch detected. Also effectivly it would replace the energy mechanic of the 250mm with the prebuild modell of the nuke, but serve almost the same purpose. And what is the point in the nuke if it isn´t strong? It´s a nuke ffs!

Dropships can have repair but in the form of a robotic arm addon. It is a issue of Race diffination in HP restoration. Terrans theoretically are best (fastest+completely) there but it costs resources (or energy for medics) and requires supervision (even with Autorepair). Slow free Regeneration is a Zerg domain.

 

dropship repairing units it carries inside is perfectly logical, you wouldn't just leave a rusting wreak untouched during a long trip. the least you will do is repair it's armor plating.

 

For me, practical function and balance in multiplayer gameplay come before all else. I think Terran could really benefit from dropship auto-repair. It's useful, not redundant with existing Terran tech, and not too OP or abusable.

I think not changing or discarding something that wasn't very useful only because of nastalgia is just silly. As far as I can see, there is very little reason to get both the nuke and the thor right now. Giving thor the nuke is the perfect way to increase the distinctiveness of the thor while making both more useful. I don't see how going from the energy cast to resource-built can be considered a step down. The cost of anything and everything is whatever is necessary, be it energy, resources, food supply, time, cooldown, or whatever else that is needed to maintain balance.

As for decreasing the effectiveness of the actual nuke, I think it's necessary when you consider that it is launched/spotted by the thor instead of the ghost. Since the thor is a LOT harder to kill off than the ghost, you would have to weaken the nuke to keep it balanced. Even after a decrease in overall power and/or AoE of the nuke, I think it should still be the single most powerful ability in the game as far as direct damage is concerned.

Nuking with thor instead of with ghost would dramatically change the way nuke plays into the game. Instead of sneaking around and holding onto your ass hoping that you get lucky and your opponent doesn't find out in time, you would just try to flat out stick nukes in their faces with sheer brute force. In that way, I think the nuke would fit the thor nicely. To me, the thor is all about having all the firepower in the world, so even though it's slow as hell, go ahead and try to stop it if you can before it obliterates everything. The way it is now, it's nothing more than a step up from the siege tank. You can argue that all you want, but in practice, the thor and the siege tank is produced for the exact same purpose, which would make it redundant.

Oh, and Unentschieden, earning mineral rewards has nothing to do with agreeing with me. As a matter of fact, I think the only thing that I explicitly agreed with was the role and ability adjustments between the ghost and the thor. The reason stated for the reward was "well organized and well thought out post with many interesting ideas," not "agreeing with Remy" or "ideas that Remy agrees with." I know you don't mean harm, but nonetheless, it's a statement that implies inaccurate ideas about how mineral rewards are awarded, which reflect negatively on the forum. The mineral reward is conceived and supported by the administrator, it's not something the moderators just decided to do one day.

 

I agree with Remy.

*receives 1,000 minerals

Haha! Sorry that is not helping with the situation. Anyway, here is my take on certain parts of Nate's review:

I believe the Merc Haven does follow through with the storyline. On top of the building, there reads a sign "Bar" and bars are normally associated with criminal syndicates and bounties, thus spawning the Merc Haven name. Randomized and specialized Reapers kind of throws off the whole purpose of a Reaper being a lightly armored raider.

Reaper combat techniques emphasize hit-and-run raiding, preferably against enemy structures and workers, so that reapers can inflict maximum damage and then retreat before the enemy can muster a response.

Given that the Reapers emphasize guerilla tactics, a Reaper with a flamethrower will surely fail the head-on assault, let alone a Reaper with an SCV's fusion torch. I understand that their jet-packs would offer them unparalleled mobility, but the fact that they are ranged, gives the player the option to "manage" them against melee units giving them a fighting chance to make up for their -- I'm assuming -- relatively weak attacks. However, if Blizzard does go through with making Reaper alternatives such as the flamethrower equipped Reaper, I believe the specialized Reapers should suffer from decreased movement speed (due to weight of carrying around flammable liquid) but make up for in an increase of HP and/or armor.

I like the idea of the Thor having a nuclear targeting capability, they are essentially giant, bipedal weapons platforms anyway. I could not agree more with what Remy said. +1,000 minerals

 

Hey please don´t misunderstand me, the mineral part was a joke. I hoped the "heh" was enough to point that out, I try to avoid emoticons. If I don´t say anything you can assume I agree with you, I´m just too lazy to post only for that.

To me the "all firepower in the world" unit is the Siege Tank. I can´t really argue against your points until we see how the Thor works in a match. My "no nukes for Thors" point is based on "stile and feel" not functionality. Hm... couldn´t we simply increase aiming time for the Thornuke so we can keep its destructive potentional? And what would the Ghost get in return?

Oh and ImaGiNe. I din´t ignore you I agree with you.

 

I like the nuke mechanic for the Thor. I think it gives it that "difference" from the Siege Tank that Nate was talking about.

So you're saying it would keep its regular 30 dmg attack and then have a nuke ability? The ghost would no longer be able to launch, so the Thor would be an even larger threat. Heck, it's gonna make it a super unit. And we all know that might be a REALLY good change for gameplay.

I mean, I wouldn't go as far as to say that you can only have one Thor......

Also, @ Unentschieden , Nate got minerals because his posts were amazing. Such achievements deserve to be rewarded. For the record, I've never been rewarded for a post with minerals and I agree with Remy a lot.

 

Oh no, I have no qualms with the building - it's the backstory that doesn't make sense. We're told the Reapers come from a government program... a government program designed to handle the most vicious human beings in the galaxy... but then they're let loose to be mercenaries?

I mean the government takes Inmate #338 out of solitary confinement, sends him to a special facility for several months/years, and then lets him go with a plaque and a degree in Mercenary Studies? The two don't add up. If these guys are controlled by the government, then you can't call them mercenaries. And if they're mercenaries, then they can't be super bad-ass, maniacs who went through special official programs.

------
Also, I don't think Thor's would ever become "super units", The Mothership originally had basically no weaknesses. The Thor on the other hand, even as imagined by me, still has significant weaknesses. Horrible agility, slow speed, difficult pathfinding, and maybe no transportation - or at least certainly extremely slow transportation. There are plenty of hard-hitting units in SC2, and with the Thor's weaknesses, it can be taken down by a skilled player.

 

This is why I think the Merc Haven was given it's name. I will refer to the BAR sign sitting atop the building and quote from the Reaper's webpage:

"Reapers are the most hardened terran criminals, taken from the most dangerous and violent prisons. Potential marines who prove too intractable even after resocialization..."
Since they are so deadly, the Terran Dominion (or whatever government/military organization) offers them a pardon if they serve the organization's interests:

"A reaper who survives two years of duty is granted a full pardon and freed, his debt to society fully paid."

With the aforementioned text, we now see why Reapers are to be considered Mercenaries. Take this for an example, A convict is required to serve the community by doing X hours of community service to help him shorten his sentence, to help reduce prescribed fines and penalties, or by doing something constructive, the person may learn ethics and be reformed. This term is known as "Alternative sentencing" and since the Dominion or whatever organization needs troops to fight in the front line because numbers are dwindling. What better resource is there to pull people from? Prisons. They get those criminals to serve, whether they like it or not.

Let's not forget the BAR sign... I am sure that since the Reaper corps. has gone through so much extensive training, rehab, etc. etc. I am sure they would like to sit down and have a nice hard drink.

 

I'm not quite understanding what you're saying.

My impression is that 'mercenary' means a fighter who is available for hire. As far as I knew, the very concept of mercenary defied government oversite. Mercenaries fight for whoever they want to, with the condition that the other party give them money for their services. I fail to see how criminals doing "community service" can be considered mercenaries. As you said, they have to serve, whether they like it or not - when one of the principal elements of a mercenary is a person who fights under whichever banner they wish... at least that's what I've always thought. I'm not really sure what the bar sign has to do with anything. Most servicemen I know enjoy a few drinks too. And none of them are mentally restructured criminals or mercenaries.

 

Hmmm, the reply I posted isn't there... all that typing... sigh~

Anyway, Unentschieden, I made it sound very serious, but I did not take offense in any way. I only decided to touch on that to clarify on it just in case anyone else gets confused. I knew you were kidding, so please do not be alarmed. But in a way, I'm very conscious of my mod status, so you actually might have less of a chance at getting mineral rewards from me if you agree with me too much all the time.

About the nuke, (it's annoying having to repost stuff that you've already posted, or thought you've posted...) I think you're kind of worried about people wanting to neuter it, but I don't think that's what anyone is saying. I don't know what NateSMZ originally had in mind, but how I envision it, it should still launch out of the screen before it comes back down. I think it should keep the red dot as well, perhaps even the universal warning message. I only suggested that the nuke itself should be weakened to keep it from being imba, with the thor spotting the nuke instead of the ghost, it would be a lot harder to kill off the spotter after all.

I also think the nuke should be made less accessible. Whether it be higher cost in resources, build time, cooldown, food supply, or a combination of all four, it should be changed so players would not be able to spam many nukes. But all in all, the nuke would still be the single most powerful ability in the game in terms of pure damage, with the largest AoE and the largest amount of direct instant damage.

My post better be there this time...

 

My impression of the Thor is that it currently is the hardest to kill unit even in ideal conditions (against it). To counter nukes you have to destroy the spotter, but somehow that ability wandered from one of the easiest to kill units to maybe the hardest to kill.


The current idea for the Thors destruction ability is strong but not comparable to the nuke.
My propblem with it is that the change from 250mm to nuke might only be graphical and only accomplishes to remove a ability from the Ghost. The 250mm is also a targeted high power AoE wich can´t be reused in the same skirmish easily. What is the difference? You said yourself that Energy based and pre-build are effectivly the same.

Also assuming the Thor would get the Nuke what are the consequences for Gameplay? It would still be better against stationary targets (aka buildings) as nothing changed about mobility. It would change the destrucktive power ("...still be the single most powerful ability in the game...") wich may be good (I argued for a reaction forcing ability myself)- but it would mean autowin against bases/exes that can´t destroy the Thor during the spotting time. It would need build times/resource costs worthy of a Mothership. That may be balancable but it would go against the "spirit" of SC because:

Suddenly it turned into a Super unit. For me Super Units are Units that serve the same purpose as Superweapons in C&C. Horrible expensive, very late game and long warning time for the enemy but uncounterable.

The main argument for energy based skills are that they can be countered, EMP and Feedback are currently in the game. I can understand your argument on the danger of a useless Thor, yet I am afraid that this change would either make the Thor+Nuke to expensive to use realistically, to important (making other lategame options like BC redundant) or too weak "wasting" the option of the nuke.