Terran Cerberus - Replacement for Firebat and possibly Cobra

I agree with Kerwyn, Chimera is a more fitting name, especially since this is a very offensive unit, and Cerberus was a guardian, not an attacker. I think that this unit really doesn't have a role since it takes too long to make it anti-air (presuming that it is built after an armory is made) and most people will be making heavier units by the time this unit is available, instead of infantry. Also, I feel like the siege tank does fine against infantry, it has such a high attack now that it doesn't matter if it gets a damage reduction due to infantry light armor.

I really don't think this unit would be that effective against infantry at its present move speed (if same as the cobra). By then most zerg will be close to upgraded ling speed and protoss will have charge by then, and since this unit won't be as small as the vulture it won't have the instant turn speed that made the attack retreat so good.

 

firstly cerberus is a fine name it suits the weapon systems, 3 headed dog = 3 flamethrowers, fire is also associated with hell. the rail gun is the cerberus's tail. chimera is used in wc3 are there will be people would complains about that.

about your other cocerns:

• its movement speed is same as vulture not cobra.
• armory is not high in the tech tree. goliaths in sc1 needed armory
• it's meant for the support role, helping tanks against mass infantry and to some degree aerial threats
• one or a few siege tanks are not effective against many infantry, they only become effective when you get a certain number of tanks. the cerberus, on the other hand, is effective in small numbers, thus countering the other races early melee attack.

 

Well how big is the unit? Because if it is just a bit smaller than the original siege tank I really can't see it going that fast or having that quick of a turning radius. I think that money would much better be spent on making just vikings and siege tanks to counter ground and air individually.

 

the unit is like a slightly beefed up vulture with roof instead of open space

 

I just can't see all that stuff being on a vulture. It's an interesting concept that feels like it should work, but it doesn't really solve the early game anti infantry need, and I feel like the banshee is going to be the late-mid game anti-infantry unit.

 

i imagine it as a small bulky unit, much like a dwarf would be.

Short,grumpy, dangerous, with a lot of weapons. I can see it looking a bit roundish but thick, if you can imagine the Dragon tank from C&C generals, from China, it looked beefy, but small, idk about the 3 flamethrowers, you'll need to balance out the range/damage for it to work.

Also, railgun and flamethrowers shooting at the same time is too much if you're thinking of having the rail gun shooting at ground targets too, maybe you can have it switch stances?

How do you guys think Vikings will do vs zealots? Since zerglings arent really that much of a problem.

Do they have any bonus damage vs small units?

 

I have mixed feelings about the Cerberus.  I think the basic concept is at least better than what the cobra is currently.  But the design of bonus damage vs unarmored ground and bonus damage vs armored air makes it feel very similar to the Viking unit.  Having it immediately buildable at factory(which I believe is a requirement for it to work at all) and making the anti-air a researchable upgrade adds to the similarity shared with the Viking.

But my biggest concern for the idea itself is the unit's HP vs damage.  I think 27 splash over 22 cool for a unit with 110 HP and 1 armor is a bit much.  I do realize that the Cerberus costs a lot more than the Firebat, but you can only go so far with raising resource cost.  The Cerberus improves on just about every area over the Firebat, damage, attack range, splash radius, anti-air, and HP.

While a unit designed specifically for anti-infantry should do the job well, this almost makes it impossible to go ground vs Terran, especially for Zerg.  That should already not be the case, but the Cerberus is even equipped to fight against air.  I honestly don't see this working as a 2-food unit.

I believe some tweaks are definitely called for.  Some suggestions: HP reduction to below 100, armor down to 0, cooldown raised to at least 30, damage reduced to 3+3(x3), attack range reduced to 2.  In all honesty, I think even if more than one of these applied, and probably should be, the Cerberus would still be very effective.

 

"reasearch: neolite engines
cost: 125min/125gas
requirements: armory, scorpio rail gun
the extra power that the neolite engine provides allows the cerberus to use its two separate weapon systems simultaneously, allowing it to attack a ground target and a aerial target at the same time (thanks to kuvasz for suggesting this)"


Ok, heres some of my thoughts.

I really, really don't like this upgrade. Sure its doable, but I just don't like it. It doesnt seem right that a tank can do simultanious attacks, but no other unit in the game can. Goliaths couldn't why should this? Also Remy made some excellent points. Lastly I would like to point out, just as Remy did, that this is too powerful, early on if it can take 30 lings, and lots, it would make Terran very powerful mid-game. I do like idea of it, and you obviousley put some thought into it, maybe make it weaker? I don't know, but props for the effort.

My two cents.

 

Actually, I believe the stalker and phoenix can both attack ground and air simultaneously. I think BC too, but I'm not sure about that one.

 

Edited out quotes. Quoting a post just above your own in its entirety is against forum rules. Please read the forum rules and refrain from quoting unnecessarily.

I havn't seen a Stalker do it in the videos, and the first SC2 video doesnt show Phoenix's attacking both.. but I do seem to remember the BC doing something similiar in a video...hmm..it would be very interesting if it did, kind of like in the beta of SC1 where the goliath could....

 

According to current info - there are indeed several units which can use both a ground attack and an air attack at the same time.

And one reason I like the idea is because it actually makes the Viking more useful. Currently the Cobra can fire at both air & ground right? Which kinda cuts into the Viking support role. But the Cerberus starts off only hitting ground, and short range at that - which leaves the Viking it's general ground support role.

Maybe one other suggestion? The stinger upgrade - perhaps tone down the damage somewhat to make it less of a true anti-air unit, and add some sort of effect onto the attack. Maybe it doesn't do that much damage, but it slows movement rates somewhat or something.... fits the idea of a stinger too.

 

Ok, now I don't mean to get off topic here, but what info? Where? Can you point out the vid where it happens? Or Have you guys been to that convention where they let you play SC2? Basically I want to see a source, I like being absolutely sure of something, in case I have to bring it up somewhere else.

 

I know there was a video of a Battle Crusier doing it, but I think they have changed the firing mechanism since that video. In the video the BS only had 2 lasers that could fire on seperate targets, now the BC has 6-8 lasers that fire on the same unit I think. I can't see the Phoenix or Stalker being able to attack simultaneously, unless you count overload, but that only works on air I think.

 

Nate, if I'm not mistaken, I think the viking's ground attack is also anti-infantry in nature.

 

It is - but it has range and quicker firing against the Cerebrus. Which leaves them different niches. Cobra right now does pretty much a very similar attack to the Viking ground, unless I'm mistaken?

And I also meant - the Viking can hit ground and air... but so can the Cobra - which leaves the viking only tactical benefit of going places the Cobra can't. But a Cerebrus is pure anti-infantry, with (as I interpret it) a nominal air attack upgrade - which leaves the Viking a more centralized role as being the standard all-rounder mech. Currently, the Cobra competes with that role.

------------
Wraithwatch - gimme a second, I'm pretty sure Blizzard confirmed it in one of their Q&A's after ppl saw it in Battlecruiser vids. Lemme run a search for you...

 

I think the cobra ground attack is actually completely opposite from the viking's.  The cobra's ground attack is bonus damage vs armored and viking's is bonus damage vs unarmored.

I think the original cobra is actually more different from the viking than the cerberus.  It's just that the cobra seems to suck and most people either don't like it or greatly concerned about its actual usefulness.

 

oh, thnx for edumucating me then

 

I like the idea quite a bit actually, and it would certainly be a solution to this problem with the Cobra as well as the need for an anti-infantry AoE unit.

However, I still feel that the Reaper would be more fitting with a simple Flamethrower attack as it would be lower tiered. But hey, this is a great option as well.

I agree with Remy that the damage is a bit much, but anything can be tweaked. Great idea. owerup:

 

i see your point there, i originally thought about making it require armory but then thought it could defeat the role of the unit as it's designed as an early infantry counter. making it available at armory would not help against early melee rush. i agree it does look similar to the viking but there is a key fundamental difference, the viking is very cheap at 100min/50gas. the cerberus costs 75min/125ags, the huge increase in gas is very significant, making it impossible to mass cerberus on the scale of vikings. the viking also gains flight, giving it a totally different role. since it's harder to mass the cerberus, i've made the decision to give it a very powerful ground attack, so that with micro, even a few cerberi would be able to hold off a lot of zerglings and zelots, which would help against the early rush senario. (typically one tank or one viking couldn't do much against early melee rush but with micro one cerberus would be able to hold off atleast 10-15 lings and 3-5 zealots, thus fulfilling its role) but is has to be ineffective against non-infantry, hence the low base damage of 3 and bonus of 6. then i thought this would just make the cerberus a glorified firebat and would probably have the same problems as the firebat as the game goes on, that's why i've decided to gave it a moderate air attack so it could be continually useful as siege tank support. it just so happened to fit the description of the mythological creature as well.

this shouldn't be your biggest concern as it's only numbers and can be changed, the most important aspects is the idea itself. you are right it's too powerful so i've increased the cooldown to 30, reduce hp to 100. i think at the moment it's enough. because bear in mind it costs a lot of gas and gas is usually the limiting factor. i don't think the original air attack of 12+8 is too much because the cobra did 10+25? which is a lot more. however i've change it to 6+6 but reduced its cooldown from 30 to 22 so overall it's slightly weaker and much be less effective against capital ships.

that's why i think the cobra is redundant apart from its anti-air, the terrans don't need any more bonus vs armor, they've got the siege tank that does 50 + 50 vs armor, and the thor, the cobra's ground attack of 10+25 vs armored is completely redundant. but terrans need anti infantry so the ceberus fits in nicely, but in-order to replace the cobra the ceberus should keep the cobra's air attack but i think it should be make weaker so that's what i did

@jon: thanks