Terran can have better technology.

If you suggest an idea, and someone disagrees with it, then that's an argument. Not an argument as in when people shout 'fraid not and 'fraid so, back and forth, perhaps a less violent word would be discussion or debate.
The Terran may be more advanced than us, but that still doesn't mean that they're able to mass produce complex weaponry. Also, the humans of the future might be more advanced, but the Terran had to start over. Just because the human race as a whole is technologically advanced, it doesn't mean that a small and isolated faction can instantly be at the top of the humans technological peak.

First off, LordKerwyn also agrees that the Terran shouldn't have all these different types of new weaponry. Now, onto the holes in each of your weapon ideas.

• Lasers - Already exist on complex vehicles and ships. They are too expensive and require too much energy to replace machine guns, etc.
• Electric - Electricity always takes the path of least resistance. If electric guns were to replace machine guns, then the path of least resistance would be straight down through the Marine.
• Electromagnetic - Marines already use electromagnetic rifles
• Sound - Apart from rupturing ear drums, which are would only effect Terran (all other races are telepathic), these are useless
• EMP - Terran Science Vessels and now Ghosts already have the EMP
• Mechanism-less Impulse Guns - All these do is reduce loading time and recoil. Who's to say they don't use them?
• Phalanx - Just like the Sound weapons these would only effect Terran because only Terran use missiles.
• Heat beam - It would take too much energy to make these lethal

About the futuristic weapons. You said and zeratul11 both said you wanted more from the Terran, not just the same ol' machine guns. This would generally require having more futuristic qualities than the standard weaponry that they have not. However seeing as their weapons are already high-tech, it would require these more new weapons to be futuristic. Also, the majority of the game is based on lore. I'm not saying that the amount based on gameplay is insignificant, but lore has a lot more to do with it than gameplay. Lore introduced was the one that introduced the Dark Templar and Dark Archon to Protoss, and, chances are, will introduce the Hybrid to Zerg. Every unit has a history, and that history is largely based on the campaign. In the StarCraft2 campaign it shows that Raynor is struggling to get by, in debt, etc, so why would all of Raynor's Marines be equipped with lasers and energy guns?

You've just basically described splash damage. The unit with the Shotgun wouldn't want to be in combat, so in optimal conditions, all it does is splash. In less than optimal conditions, it won't survive too long. However, the Marauder deals splash damage no matter what range it fires from, slows units down if it is caught in less than optimal conditions and deals extra damage to vehicles. So what's the incentive to replace the grenades with a Shotgun? All it would do is limit your options, resulting in less tactics.

I've already explained the logic behind me using the term 'futuristic' but if you don't want them to use futuristic weapons, then I'll stop using that term.
Apart from your weapon ideas not working, there isn't all that much they could change in-game apart from aesthetics. If you wanted Marines to shoot lasers, then they'd just shoot lasers instead of bullets. You can change that in the Map Editor when and if you buy the game. As far as the other ideas, like the Shotgun and Phalanx, go, they just aren't really needed. The Shotgun is just an altered and weaker grenade launcher.

I'm so glad that you decided not to lock the topic. To me it means that you feel that your ideas are worth fighting for which, in itself, makes them more valid.

 

Zeratul to be perfectly honest I think Blizzard has just right atm for how much technology the Terrans should have. Right now every Terran unit/weapon (with the exception of the BC's lasers) has some real world counterpart or is based on some real world mechanic. But the difference lies in the fact that Blizzard has had the Terrans take it up a notch or 2 to give them that sci fi edge. You bring up the fact of other epic sci fis, guess what the ideas for a lot of them were out before the release of Starcraft and yet a number of them weren't used in any shape or form. (Star Wars is a perfect example)

Right now I personally think that the Terrans are just right as far as technology goes (this includes the SC2 cinematic). If your basing your opinions of Terran technology on the SC1 cinematics then yeah I agree, they did appear out of date, but then again there were a number of discrepancies between those cinematics and the game. I am definitely not arguing for going back to the level of technology portrayed in those cinematics, I am arguing for not going any further forward for the 2 reasons. First I believe what is in SC2 is a good representation of what the Terrans should have technologically, second if the Terrans go much further you begin to risk hurting the coolness factor of the Terrans, by having some of their victories cheapened a little by having more technology and you also risk hurting what makes the Protoss great and that is the Protoss's obvious technological advantage.

 

A short note, I never ever said Terran definitly should have the weapons shown, I said its within their grasp and it is possible. I gave a few examples just to get the discussion started, I wanted a nice simple discussion on Terran and their technologies not a 1v1 or 2v1 battle over how each post the person makes doesn't work. Also the way we are discussing right now doesn't leave it open for others to participate within the discussion so I'd like to just cut it there and say nice argument, whether I am wrong or you are I don't care I have explained that the Terran could have these weapons and there is no reaosn why they shouldn't, because as time goes by these weapons would become more common.

Now I do understand that Terrans got kicked off their planet and these are mainly prisioners and stuff but they still have scientists and all the other required personale to create weapons.
But in general gameplay there is no tag on their head saying redneck rebels with guns. They are a faction and this is general gameplay. You don't see the Protoss fighting with a unit cap of 150 do you? since their number are low in campain why don't it transfer to general gameplay like the Terrans poorness.

I hope you see what I am saying but lets slow it down and discuss one thing at a time so others are able to join the discussion.

I hope this topic can follow the format of me or someone else posting a video and we can debate on whether it would be useful for Terran, then rule out how it would replace or not replace a current Terran ability.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qfyDW6x2JkU

I think over time the Mine Drone will be unliked as its basically renewable spider mines and Reapers already have mines.
Don't you think it would be cool if the Nomad could create a small remote controlled robot with some kinda ability or attribute that makes it better on the battle field then the reuseable mines?

Also here is some Direct Energy weapons, it explains why these are better than bullets in the video, plz don't reply on the direct energy topic if you havn't watched the full video :]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ak2j9x9Ts_k

 

Reapers mines are timed charges. The nomad mines are proximity detonated. Two completeley different uses.

The former is good at crowd control and building demolition.
The latter is good at providing a defensive line

 

In general gameplay there is the same tag on their head as there is in campaign. It is the exact same team you are playing with. Giving them multi-barreled electromagnetic mechanism-less laser impulse guns in general gameplay would mean giving them the same thing in campaign. As you know, they do not have those sorts of resources.
Protoss already have smaller armies in general gameplay because all of their units costs more resources than other teams units. In general terms, instead of reducing the supply cap, they've just made the units cost more supply.

 

It seems you have the perception that I want the WHOLE Terran army to have these types of weapons, to main response was to people saying Terran CAN'T have anything other than bullets and simple weaponary.
I'd just like one or two units to have a weapon like this which brings in some nice tactics without an ability. However Blizzard would want to do it is up to them but we will see..

Any comments on the direct energy video and how those weapons could be focused to produce deadly effects?

 

i cant play the vids in this forum, i guess i have to find it myself on youtube.

@lordkerwyn

im glad we are almost close to the same page right now coz IMO opinion the terran in sc2 is what the terran should be REALLY like not too advance and not low tech. actually some old sc1 fans didn't like the changes of the terran in sc2 from the original, they think the terran in sc2 looks to high tech and far different from sc1. but IMO and i agree that they look different but it is for the better.

and yes i kinda compare the starcraft universe to starawars. i want starcraft to be as big as starwars, i think starcraft lore and cinematics should be base on big sci fi movies like starwars and not from alien movies and starship troopers.

and i still want something new and inovative weapon for a terran infantry. i'll try to draw some asap/

 

Here is the trick Zeratul if you want to try and convince me (and most likely others) think of weapon that is no more advanced than what the Terrans currently have but is still creative. Remeber something doesn't need to be big or powerful to be cool, also the Terrans use kinetic and chemical energy weapons thats just how it is. I am assuming you have noticed by now that most of the ideas outside of that for the Terrans are what has gotten hammered. So good luck.

Zergalicous you still have the same problem you had in the past for directed energy weapons, to get them up to a lethal weapons against the Protoss or Zerg would require an enormous amount of energy, making them way less practical than kinetic energy weapons.

P.S. I forgot to say this earlier but I kinda liked the idea of the Reapers having wrist based weapons as long as they are kinetic energy weapons.

 

So what are your views on my shotgun weapon idea, to me it seems creative without it being some huge hi-tech weapon.

I'll sum it up cuz I can't be bothered to find the posts where I talk about it or something similar.

Fires a spread similar to a shotgun.
Gives player a choice to move in close for critical damage as the shot is concentrated.
Also allows you the choice of attacking from a range so the shot spreads and hits more than one unit, this allows you to damage a group while killing weak units without wasting time engaging them one to one.
Simple concept idea yet it can change gameplay a lot, I'll leave you to think up scenarios of how this could prove useful. But one example would be against the Zealots charge, may make them Protoss think twice about getting close to the Terran who often work better at range.
To ease possible balance issues the cool down is slower than Marines, maybe about the same speed as Vikings since its like a shotgun.
Either decent speed and Marine-like hp or has armor but is quite fast when stimmed.

 

Here is the one thing that bugs me about it Zergalicious. Assuming it is a kinetic energy based weapon I have a hard time imagining how a shotgun like weapon would be more effective machine gun like weapon of the marines, because it seems like if you are trying ot break trhough something (Protoss shields or Zerg carapacci in this case) it would be more effective to single larger round over a large number of smaller rounds assuming they same amount of ernergy is put into the weapon. Also given the Protoss and Zerg strengths in close combat it doesn't make sense to encourage an infantry unit to try and get close just to use a less effective weapon. However mechs (aka Factory units) get around most of my qualms with the mechanic. Actually now that I think about it, it could be a very interesting weapon for the ground form Viking. Actually I think it would be kind of funny if the Viking did have this sort of weapon because it in effect become strong against the weakest units in the game and the strongest units while having a severe vulnerability to the middle ground units.

Thats my 2 cents. (I am not longer oposed to it as strongly as I was before I just believe it wouldn't make sense on a infantry unit).

 

The Terran already have units with weaponry other than bullets. No-one has ever said that they can't have anything other than bullets. On top of bullets they got charges, EMPs, nukes, torpedoes, shells, mines, cluster rockets, lasers, particle accelerators and grenades. All of these are used with different tactics.

You fail to comprehend that Terran are designed to attack from a distance. Why would a Terran soldier want a weapon that can only deal concentrated fire if they're close to their enemy? Every Terran unit at the moment does the same amount of damage from a distance as it does in combat. This is part of the Terran tactics. The Marauder opens up a whole lot of new tactics by slowing the enemy down. This increases their survivability without having to withstand the perils of melee combat. A Terran soldier wouldn't ever be able to stand their ground in melee combat against a Protoss warrior or a swarm of melee Zerg.

This made me laugh. The Protoss will think twice before sending their melee units into melee combat? Yeah, right! Ever seen a Protoss player think twice about charging Zealots into a group of Zerglings? Or into a group of enemy Zealots? No.
The only way to keep Zealots out of melee combat is to make them not be able to get into melee combat in the first place. This is achieved with a whole lot of long-ranged firepower and Marauders to slow them down.

 

@Last sentence, which leads to another idea of a fast mech that has 2 modes which has this weapon attribute as mode 1. I think I posted it in the Predator petition topic.

But one thing about comparing its effectivness when directly against shields or carrapacci, its not the best thing to look at everything based strongly on lorewise, as gameplay is a large requirement also.
Also shotguns are stronger than most basic machine guns but the machines guns fast rate of fire equals it all out which is why the Marine and Zergling got away with such weak damage points as they attacked extremely fast.

Also when comparing the machine gun to a shot gun you can say the machine gun wins in the criteria of precision hits and rate of fire, but when looking at the shot gun its more of a random shot so it will it many areas in one burst. Now comparing those two factors you can see the machine guns wins as its continuous damage and pressure on the same or a similar spot.
But with the shot gun it can also be very effective close range as that whole precision factor gets blown away with a stronger shot and the fact it will spread meaning less chance of survival.

Another aspect of this unit with a spread fire weapon, I won't go into detail but imagine a ground valkyrie but since it has less range no splash for the individual bullet it releases it gets the strong close range attack made to attack a single unit with a much more critical effect.

edit: for fuck sake man stop combating everything @itza

Discussing with you is boring and ends up nowhere.

But on a short note, the Maurader's attack won't slow down all the charging Zealots meaning death for mr Marauder. Atleast with this spread attack that has 2 variables close range death for a single unit or mid range spread fire to crowd control if a Zealot gets close it will get shot along with every other Zealots coming in then feel the force of high pressure bullets go thru its stomach or brain.

 

fropm lordkerwyn

"P.S. I forgot to say this earlier but I kinda liked the idea of the Reapers having wrist based weapons as long as they are kinetic energy weapons. "

nice. great idea. im going to make an artwork out of this. i like this one way better than the pistol and i dont care what it shoots. now this is an example of innovation something more sci fi rather than giving them lame old realistic pistols.

i like the wrist weapon, makes me think of barret from final fantasy VII. it looks complex and semi high tech and better suited as a sci fi weapon. ok even though its kinetic i dont care the weapon design and its mechanic itself is great. =)

 

Tough.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=71&Itemid=60
Read the gameplay blog. I quote 'These units [Marauders] are excellent at supporting any pack of Marines & Medics, with the ability to slow charging Zealots, as well as fast moving Zerg units'. All charge does is increase movement speed. Concussion grenades, on the other hand, reduce movement speed. Marauders deal area of effect damage and slow any biological unit they damage, meaning that they can slow down groups of charging Zealots. An advantage that the Marauder has over your shotgun idea is that they always deal their maximum damage. Your shotgun idea reduces damage done from a distance.
If a Zealot charges a Marauder, it is slowed down, allowing more time for the Marauder to fire before taking damage, and the Marauder will always deal its maximum damage from the moment the Zealot gets in range to the moment it gets in combat. The Zealot will have taken a fair bit of damage by the time it gets into combat.
If a Zealot charges your shotgun unit (Unit A), it isn't slowed down, meaning that it charges into combat without taking as many hits, and hits that it does take have greatly reduced damage. The Zealot will be very close to still having full health by the time it gets into melee combat.
So, in these two scenarios it ends up that the Marauder is still on full health when it gets into melee combat with a damaged Zealot, and Unit A is also on full health when it gets into combat with a barely injured Zealot. Now that both are in combat, both the Marauder and Unit A are now dealing their full damage, however the Marauder has already gotten a head start on the Zealot its fighting, so the odds are greatly in its favor.

 

First of all, I havn't read through the whole thread, so I am not against anyone here. I just wanna point out that current terran technology is more or less realistic and is more advance comparing today technology. Remember the starcraft timeframe is just around 200 year from now...

Terran weaponary

Marine
-- 8mm C-14 Impaler Gauss Rifle --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun
First, this is not a "machine gun" but rather a projectile accelerator that uses one or more electromagnetic coils to accelerate a magnetic projectile to high velocity. It can even be upgraded to incorperate with depleted uranium shells. IMO, this is a piece of highly advanced technology...

Viking
-- transformation --
nuff said, a robot that can be transformed to become a jet fighter. Weaponary wise, gattling gun (viking ground mode weapon) does exist now and widely used (chaingun), but I believe it also fires some highly accelerated projectile rather than bullets. IMO, ordinary bullets wont be able to penetrate protoss shield, zerg carapase or even marine own robocop like outfit.

Banshee
-- clocking field --


Buildings
Ability to lift off and be constructed everywhere....


Just to list a few. We can see that terrans are developing towards adaptability and survivability rather than highly advanced weaponary alone. IMO, survivability and adaptability of terrans are already highly advanced. Technology shouldn't be interpreted by weaponary or firepower alone, especially in the time of space travelling.

 

Ah yes you pointed out something I hoped you'd realize earlier. The shotgun attack has the option to do full damage or to damage/kill more than one unit at once. @itza

 

Zergalicious the game is still in alpha/pre-alpha this is the realm of lore and mechanics. Also I don't see gameplay changing very much with or without the shotgun idea because it will either replace something or be ignored for something else, either way you pretty much break even. What I meant though is if you launch a bullet or a flurry or smaller bullets with the exact same amount of energy the single bullet has a much better chance of piercing armor because all of its pressure is focused on a single poitn instead of being spread out which would happen with the flurry of bullets. The only way for the flurry to even have a chance of being more effective against an armored object (which is everything in the SC skirmishes becasue there is no civillians on the battle field) would be if the flurry was launched with more force than the single projectile and 99% of the time that would require the flurry being launched from a larger weapon. Also no matter what happens a flurry of bullets will require the user to be at a much closer range to be effective than a single bullet, even if you are trying to hit multiple targets, think of the effective ranges of a modern shotgun vs. the effective range of an M16. Both having to be coser and use a larger weapon mean that a shotgun like weapon would not be very advantagous for infantry because they can be torn apart rapidly by both the Zerg and Protoss. Hence why I suggested it being on a mech.

l2k thanks for the reminder of the fact that the Terrans have a number of advanced technologies beyond weapons.

P.S. ItzaHexGor and Zergalicious both of you need to chill a little. Zergalicious comments like:

wont help with you trying to end your argument with Itza, it will just prolong the argument if you want to stop say just that and stop responding to him. Itza don't start playing the tough shit game becuase ill just start deleting every one of your posts that continue it, is that clear?

 

You are absolutly correct but IMO you are looking at it on a lorewise scale only. I'm trying to combine lorewise and gameplay together. And for those who are so intent on killing my ideas, everything has an opposite and everything has another thing which is favoured over it, its a big cycle which you can't complete so I suggest you state your final point and give up Itza.

 

i got it! what terran needs and what i want them to have is a bolt riffle or a mortar energy bombs. that would be awesome. i'll addp up more later and perhaps some drawings.

 

The grenade attack has the option to do full damage against one target, or to do full damage against more than one target. The Marauder area of effect damage means that it always has the option of being able to finish of targets on low health, except it doesn't receive any damage reduction to each one making it much more efficient at doing so. Terran already have tonnes of units that can finish off crippled units much more effectively than yours can.

I'm not going to give up. If you keep on arguing then I will keep on retaliating. Don't expect me to back down.
I am not just trying to just kill your ideas purely because it is you who thought of it. I am not just arguing for the sake of arguing, posting pointless comments or breaching any rules. If you want me to stop arguing then prove me wrong. If you prove that I'm wrong, then why would I keep arguing?