Swarm Clutches, Creep Tumors and Shriekers

your say 3 or 4 colossus, but if u looked at the video you would notic it was only 1 colossus and 4 or 5 zealot. even if the colossus wasnt there the zealot would of took those down with no problem. The only think i like about current defence is the range. its a fairly far shooter.

edit: and small too

 

That Zerg player had one Swarm Clutch and four Zerglings to defend his base. He got anally raped. I'm pretty sure the same thing would have happened in SC1 with one Sunken Colony and four Zerglings. In contrast, the Zerg player in the second match held up pretty well because he had seven Swarm Clutches along with four Zerglings to defend himself.

If you look at the first match, the Swarm Clutch died in about six hits from the Zealots. If the attack cycles of those Zealots hit for a full 16 damage (as opposed to the seemingly slower attack animation we saw in the SC2 announcement demo: 8 for one swing, then 8 for another), that would place the Clutch's health at around 100. Hopefully they won't be considered as Armored like most buildings seem to be so far. That'd make it hell for Zerg players to go up against Siege tanks and their 50 +50 vs armored

 

what about the second match where he had like 7 Swarm Clutch?

I cant put to much shame onto the zerg defence. this guy didnt even use roaches and thats the next unit up.

 

What do you mean? Are you asking for my guess on how much damage the clutches do? Looking at the second match, there were two clutches fully built and attacking when that wave of Zealots came in. I counted 20 hits between the two of them focused on one Zealot. Counting the base 1 armor a Zealot has according to SC2armory's stat list, that's 9 damage per hit from one Swam Clutch. Considering that and the Clutch's fire rate, I'd say these things work best when built en masse.

 

No, i'm not asking you to guess there damage i'm asking you to say your thoughts on how he had so many of the base defenders in the second match and was nearly 2 or 3 shoted by the colossue and 4 or 5 zealots.

 

I think that the Zerg player in the first match just didn't know how to use the Queen. He had at least 8 drones, so he should have been able to build a good number of Swarm Clutches by then. That or he was just a total noob ^_^

2 or 3 shotted? Are you talking about the how the Queen was killed so quickly? The Queen only has 160 HP when first built (tier 1), and it has the same 8x2 damage that a Zealot has. It's pretty much the same as watching 1 zealot being attacked by 5 zealots. The results would be similar (but that's definitely not 2-shooting )

btw, please try to clear up your posts a bit from now on. Not that I don't like getting extra minerals or anything, but I could answer your questions more quickly and with less posts if you made your point clearer

 

The Swarm Clutches are only killed quickly because they have relatively low health. They still have a strong attack, a fast attack speed and are quick to build, but yes, you're correct, they do have low health. What you don't seem to realise is that they only cost 75 minerals. You can't expect something that only costs 75 minerals to be powerful, durable, has a fast attack speed and short build time. Instead of only building a few of these, like players did with Sunken and Spore Colonies in StarCraft, and as Kaaraa said, they'll have to be built in numbers. To compensate for needed to be built in numbers, they only take up one square, so I seriously don't see what the problem is.
Also, keep balancing in mind. All the teams obviously haven't been perfectly balanced yet because most don't even have all their units. Zerg are relatively new, at least to us, and they're the ones who have had their whole play-style revamped, so it's understandable that they aren't balanced yet.

 

/agree with ItzaHexGor + Kaaraa.
Swarm Clutches arent supposed to be the same as the old Sunkens, and they arent supposed to be reliable defense until you get Ultrasisks. Their strength is their cheap cost and easy building process so numbers are what matters.
I am kind of misssing your point i2new@aol.com. Are you trying to say that the clutches are getting 3 shoted? Well thats perfect because they are supposed to get 3 shoted! They cost 3 times less than the old sunkens, they take up one tile and are builded within 10 seconds, why should they withstand imba dps?
So if we didnt answer you point please clarify to us what you ment exantly.
Remember that Zerg is supposed to be the least defensive race.

 

Can we build unlimited the clutches?Or it has a limit number?

 

As far as I know it is unlimited.

 

I doubt they would put a limit on the number of Swarm Clutches a player can have. Not only would it be a disadvantage to Zerg because the Terran and Protoss have unlimited defences, but they are supposed to be mass produced. As we've already discussed, there isn't much point in only having a few Swarm Clutches, so they've got to be built in numbers. Even though I'm aware that the limit doesn't have to be a particularly restricting one, depending on how high the limit is, restricting the number of Clutches a player can have would be like limiting the number of Zerglings, as both are supposed to be made in numbers. Lastly, even if they do limit it but keep the limit fairly high so that it's not too restrictive, they might as well just not have a limit at all.

 

From what I have read about the new defensive mechanics of the Zerg I love it. It puts an emphasis on mixing your defensive structures for effectiveness. Players won't be able to plop down structure haphazardly and expect to defend their base. Instead they will have to be deliberate in their placement of these structures so that they swarm clutches get the greatest benefit form shriekers.

The only thing I don't like is the dependence on the queen. Due to the fact that there is only one zerg defenses have a very major weakness as killing the queen can hamper a zerg player's ability to defend himself for a few minutes while he builds a new queen. I myself think it would be nice i we could build more than one queen weather you get an additional queen per tier (one at hatchery, 2 at lair, 3 at hive) or have a one queen per hatchery limit. That way you would have a backup by mid game in case something goes wrong but you still wouldn't be able to use her as an assault troop.

 

BirdofPrey I think limiting the Queen is also for balance. The abbilites of the Queen are/will be very strong, so this is the only way to balance it out!

 

The Queen also has a 25 second build time, and since it can build all of the defensive structures in its tier 1 form, you can rebuild your defenses, then evolve your Queen when you feel safe enough.

 

Well my point is that for the Protoss an Terrans if they lose a few probes or SCVs thy can still build defensive structures with the remaining workers while the Zerg queen represents a single point of failure. Not only that but the Terran and Protoss can reenforce multiple bases at opne time while the Zerg can only do it one at a time.

How much sense does it make to be able to build more hatcheries to improve the ability to make units but you can't make more units to speed up the construction of defenses?

 

Its makes more then enought sense BoP! Zergs arent about defenses at all, they are about units and about presuring the enemy. Defense should be Zergs most important part, units and presuring the enemy should.

 

BirdofPrey: What furrer said + why should all races be the same? Why should every race have defence buildable by the basic builders? Besides - the queen is mad ein 25 seconds max, cant you survive 25 seconds without building additional clutches? Or you belive that once Queen dies all your clutches and other defense explode and the armagedon unleashes upon you?

 

Killing the Queen would hinder Zerg defences, but it wouldn't take too long to recover. Your Swarm Clutches still live on after her death, and all of your other units will still be there. If you're in a situation where your army has been destroyed, your Swarm Clutches are gone and your Queen has just been killed, you're dead. Having another Queen would make it far to easy to just mass base defences when you're in trouble.
I'd say that killing the Queen is less of a hindrance than taking out Protoss Pylons. Taking out the Pylons renders everything useless, but killing the queen will not.

In effect that kinda does happen. The Queen can be evolved into a Lair Watcher when you've gotten a Lair and a Hive Matriarch when you've gotten a Hive. The Hive Matriarch has a tonne of health, and still has abilities like Deep Tunnel for if she's stuck in the midst of a battle. Basically, a Zerg player shouldn't need to worry about this because in vital parts of the game, they should never have their Queen in a position where she's at too much risk. Not to mention that having more than one Queen would destroy the concept of Zerg being a super-organism.

It's true that Terran and Protoss should always be able to build defensive structure, but their defensive structures are a lot more expensive and take a lot longer to build. Also, it'd still be hard for Terran to produce defensive structures while they're under attack because the SCV that's building it is such an easy target. The Zerg, even though they only have one unit to build them, can build lots of them at once because they're cheap, and have them ready to fight in do time because of their short build time.

Zerg players hardly need to speed up the production of their defences. You never see Protoss going around with a group of Probes so that each one can build a Phase Cannon, thus speeding up their production rate, because Probes can just place it and move on, and the same goes for the Queen. It places the Swarm Clutch and can move on, Deep Tunnelling to another base if you need to build some there as well.