Starcraft2Forum.org Exclusive Interview with iNcontrol

God damn egos
-.-

 

coming from another top usa starcraft pro.. im going to add my 2 cents in~

i agree with inc~ on most.. but what everyone is forgetting.. is that while your doing "warp-in" "blink" ect.. spell's and abbilitys... what is that called?? (micro) we dont want a micro heavy game.. thats NOT STARCRAFT.. this is a sequeal to starcraft .. not wc4.. or some other title that should die off after a year or so... dont get me wrong.. i actually love playing warcraft3 even tho.. i travel and play in tournaments in starcraft. but they should keep to the basic's of starcraft which is Macro + Micro + stratagy ... making things easyer isnt helping the game out.. i dont want to hold CTRL and click a gateway.. and then HIT "z" and boom just made 24 zealots... and my macro is complete for 2 min... we want somone like the Korean pro iloveoov .. what would he be in sc2?? nothing.. the boy's micro is horrible.. but his macro makes up for it.. he would never go anywhere in sc2... im all for change... yes SC is the best game i ever played... but SC2 could be just as good with a little luck, And same core.. that made SCBW such a good game.. i dont see how they can say "Were making a sequal to starcraft" and take out.. 1 of the 3 keys.. that made starcraft so good.. alot of Pro MBS players, tell me (think you will have more time to think stratagy's) i want to choke the people who tells me that stuff, i dont have problems microin macro'in and knowing what the heck i wanna do.. i have played sc now for about 4 years competitively ~ i am totally going to switch to sc2 when it comes out.. considering it will be the beginning of the end for scbw. This is what I want to see happen... is made mbs and automine on/off option .. that way the mbs players who wanna game.. and the new players who dont want to play a game competitively can play the game they want for fun~ while the ladder is kept challengeing and difficult !!!

inc really did give the perfect example tho.. the new hack that entered starcraft brood war.. called "oblivion" has auto mineing, auto split, MBS.... as some of its perc's... now u can give a avg gamer these tool's and heck.. he can beat ppl FAR ABOVE his skill level.. why?? becasue it simplyfies everything that makes starcraft challenging and hardcore! So if ur looking for a micro heavy game its called wc3 not Sc2 ~ SC2 4 lyfe~
im putting faith in blizzard.. that they relise taking out one of the core components out of the origenal game... cant be a good thing for sc2. It wouldn't be sc2... will be more like.. command and conquar T.T which will make me and many other starcraft fans.. a very sad panda...

and to all the "if they dont have mbs and automine and all the other newb friendly stuff in it they wont get good ratings" i laugh in ur general direction.. starcraft is made by blizzard.. the game will get a perfect 10 score from every gaming magazine no matter the UI i know it.. blizzard knows it.. toggle option and everything would BE GREAT! ~ so starcraft ladder and competitive play stays to the CORE that starcraft broodwar left us~ lets look to the future with new graphic's new units new story new hidden tricks and stratagey's to find out but! the same great feel and play of SC!

 

Guys lets stop arguing about the way Jon wrote the interview we have all been around long enough to know his views on the subjects he brought up with iNcontrol.

As for iNcontrol's opinions I have said it time and again a someone doesn't deserve to call themselves a pro if they can't adapt to changes in the ideas and opinions of the masses. As for the topics presented in this interview here are my opinions.

Super Unit Mothership: Anyone who has been on this forum for awhile know I am one of the most ardent defenders of a super unit Mothership and that hasn't changed. This topic has been debated a ton on this forum and the result is always the same, the majority agree the Mothership should stay in the game as a super unit.

Zerg Information: I agree with Neon and a number of others that Blizzard has the Zerg just as far along as the Terran and Protoss and are just waiting for the oportune time to release them.

Damage types: No mater who you ask 99.99% of time people will say adding is easier than subtracting so I don't see the problem here.

UI Improvements (MBS and auto-mining): Skill in game should be based on the Strategic and tactical abilities of the players not who can overcome an outdated interface, also it obvious Blizzard is building the game around the fact these features are going to be there and are adding ways for skilled players to take advantage of them.

Starcraft a mistake?: The excellent balance of the original cannot be called a mistake without seriously insulting Blizzard and the fans that helped refine the game, however I do believe the games inital popularity which lead it to being refined so much was unexpected by Blizzard and thus can be viewed as a mistake. Ultimately though whether Starcraft was a mistake or not doesn't change anything because SC2 is going to come out in a much different way than the way Starcraft did just because of the number of people who enjoyed the original and the new technology that seperates them.

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@LzGaMeR its nice to see someone come here to go against MBS (even though I personally like the idea of MBS) I ask you this how would anyone outside of the upper end pros be able to wield Warp In and Phase Cannons without MBS? and those are just 2 examples, Blizzard is obviously adding things that will only really work well with MBS. Remeber this game isn't being built for the pros anymore than it is being built for your average gamer, and your average gamer out number the "pros" by a lot.

 

they said they are making this game around "competitive play" so that in my mind isnt trying to please the avg gamers, but what will make this game take E-Sports into the future~ and i could use warp-in phase cannons WITHOUT mbs its not that difficult in my eye's ~

 

You are right Blizzard did say they are making the game around competitive play, so are you saying WC3 and pretty much every modern game isn't competitive because they have auto-mining and MBS?

I'm glad for you that you could use those abilities without MBS. Does that change the minds of the me and all of the other average gamers about whether it should be included in the game? No.

The only advantage of not having these mechanics is it makes it harder for people newer to the game to be competitive. I can't fathom how that would be a good thing your saying you don't want anyone new to join the competitive scene? Also I can you this with a degree of certainty, Blizzard isn't going to discourage new players, they are going to encourage them because at the end of the day they want to make money.

What I don't understand is why people keep arguing against the inevitable. Why don't you, instead of constantly trying to think of ways to make the game hard for new players try and think of ways to keep the macro skill range large while still utilizing a 21st century UI? Why don't you instead of arguing against things like MBS try and think of new mechanics that will require MBS to be effective, while still trying to keep the macro skill range large? Or if you must avoid being constructive try and think of good limiting factors instead of demanding the outright removal of something?

Most of the time the only thing I see from people who call themselves "pros" is the complete opposition to anything new or anything that could give an average gamer an edge. To put it bluntly that's not right nor is it fair for the people who waited 10 years for a new game, with new units and a new UI.

 

It seems to me like a lot of the pros' opinions are that being good at Starcraft should automatically make them good at Starcraft II. I'm sorry, but this is a new game. Everybody is going to start from scratch - and that's how it should be. Just because somebody is a pro at Starcraft doesn't mean they are entitled to a free ride in the sequel. They'll have to think of new ways to be good, and put in just as much work as anybody else. A true professional gamer will be able to adapt.

 

Sorry, LZ, I gotta take the peoples' side on this.

SC2 cannot and should not be developed for the sole benefit of its competitive gaming potential. This game is for Starcraft lovers, not Starcraft gosus.

Half of SC's appeal is that it is so easy to learn but so hard to master, and that is what Blizzard should be aiming for with their game.

A game with a low skill requirement but an infinitely high skill ceiling.. isn't that what we're really after? So I don't really see that large of a problem posed by MBS and Auto-mining.

 

I don't see how being a pro gamer gives this guys opinions anymore relevance than one of use.

He plays it more?
Can that be a 100% truth? Obviously he must play a lot; but more? He plays Zerg, how many man hours in with the other races? Is he the best USA player? I'm pretty sure there are tons of kids playing b net today who could kick his ass but have never entered an official tourny.

I might be just bad mouthing him (I could go on and on too...); but he really does seem like an "I'm uber leet" Expletive Deleted.

Thanks for the article none the less.

 

LZ, you do have a point.

But one thing that we should all understand is that even if MBS is included in the game, it doesn't mean it would noobify the game. For SC1, yes it would. But not the case in SC2. They are completely different games.

I'm sure that Blizzard is well aware of the two sided argument regarding the issue of MBS. We should all trust Blizzard in this one. If they decided to implement MBS, you can bet that they will have other ways to keep the player busy.

Therefore to conclude,we can say just because MBS would noobify SC1 doesn't mean it would noobify SC2 because SC2 is a completely different game with added units and game mechanics. One cannot use the argument of saying that since MBS would noobify SC1, it would also noobify SC2. Two different games.

 

i see your point of view~ but.. i just would like to see Macro a core part of the game.. not just (other tasks to keep players busy) btw i dont think any good sc player think.. there going to dominate sc2 when it comes out.. i dont think a sc player would have a edge over a wc3 player or anyone else from other rts's.. but~ we would like to see the joy that everyone has got out of sc for 10 years.. to get the same feeling and depeth.. in sc2~ 2+2+2 = 6 take away macro and fill it with (other stuff to keep you busy, as you like to put it) 2+2 = not starcraft T.T
there's a reason blizzard went to korea to reviel there new game.. Its starcraft korea's national sport ! so surely they wanna try and keep the same fundamentals of core game action~
thats like WC4 coming out.. but they decide to take out a core factor thats in wc3.. like lets say they wanted to get rid of gaining experiance~ becasue it was to hard for the lesser skiller players to compete with the higher skilled so then (they could use all that time normaly for creeping into stratagy's!) sounds silly no? thats kinda how mbs and auto mine.. sounds to hardcore sc players T.T its sad but true.. we know its a new game and new units graphic's ect.. but taking out somthing that isnt broken doesnt make much sense, atlest to me

ps. i think wc3 is a good competitive game with mbs but.. its a micro heavy game~ far from what starcraft is~ and most other so-called "competitive game" yes i would say cc aoe ect are crappy rts's i played them ;/ and no not mbs is there only falt.. but they are made way to easy which is why those games arnt as competitive.. u dont see pro baseball players hitting off a batting tee .. why?? becasue anyone could do it~ ^_^

 

I don't understand why anyone should be forced to use certain game features that they don't want. Like everyone said, SC2 will try to cater for the largest array of people possible, which includes pro SC players, casual SC players and even newcomers to the RTS genre. I think we all agree on the fact that fulfilling these 3 groups' desires can't be done without implementing server-side options for certain features - namely, MBS and auto-mine (and all the others we haven't heard about yet).
I'm a casual SC player but even I would want to try out SC2 with the harsh learning curve of SC. I might settle with MBS and auto-mine but hey, at least I tried and I decided myself that I'd rather go with easier macro (or rather, 0 macro).

Please Blizzard, don't make decisions that the players themselves should make. Is it so hard to put an options tab when creating a server which would contain all the new features with a simple checkbox next to them?

 

I think that in the Current build (at least what we have seen) Blizzard is Copying a LOT of C&C 3's style, and that because their game producer (not 100% sure about the potition name but sure one very important to the sc2 team) was a Former Red-Alert& CnC guy!
super units, (motherships), and black holes more battle no economy, a little of "tank rush" and stuff like that are now in the SC2 and i really DONT Like it.
They seem to look around TOO much instead of try and inovate there SC game.

ofcaurse some of you will propably say that "hey they started this game years before CnC3 was strted, EA guys might stolen their ideas and apply in a game faster..." well maybe...

the point is that untill now they are watching the other rts arrounf and try to clone stuff in there own!

BUT Blizzard police is that we give you lots of "BS" in the bigging that kreeps you, and 1month before the game goes Gold, we redisigned it from the begging and we sell you after few year a BEST SELLER and PERFECT game........well that's Blizzard!

i am very afraid that they will try to folow the marketing path insted of the developing one, and not the other way arround.....

Time will Tell...............................


p.s to the man say that he want a SC2 not SC 1.5 well if you where given The ORIGINAL starcraft - missiongs -dialong-CG-gameplay, BUT in this Graphic Engine, and with todays technology...wouldn't you take it ??????

 

SC2 does not look like CnC at all...
And I think the questions were really good!

 

it doesnt "look" but it has elements that are know only the cnc universe!
like super uniqe units or in SuprCommander....

and now that they listened the Fans voices about the baby-warcraft3-contrasteed colors and they will soon sow us some new Screenshots, the game will not look like cnc at all.

the point isnt the graphic engine, but the gameplay style starts to loose its ways from the original...

i know they try their best and at the end they will give us something great,but i isnt it funny that they always try to give us heart attacks and the last time the just Save you!!!

maybe thats a police to keep you in agony...and then we "tent" outside a store to buy and see the final ........

i like it when they dont reveal stuff and units about the game until you buy it....i hate official spoilers

agree the question were really good, and some of his agony about the new game that i share, there are also good.

well to" disign" a check box isnt hard from programming side
but to make it workable it is defficalt if they have that part of code writen in native into the source code and not like a module. then they will have to alter lots of game code!

But dont worry Blizzard has some of the BEST game Programmers in the World!
they are is NO WAY they will not make the source code flexible!

comparing to WoW source code complexity, the Sc2 source code must be "peace of cake" for those people! Smiley

programming, Art and SG grafics teams are extreem talented!

i envy them as a software engineer Smiley


Merged posts. Please read the forum rules and do not double post.

 

It's kind of hard for me to comment, as I've only recently returned to playing SC after a long spell playing Civ. It's fascinating to see how SC has become such a worldwide hit. Can SC2 rival that, or improve upon that? I think there will be a lot of second guessing, up to and after the game is released. Blizzard has done what they think is right in producing SC2, and we all know that we want this game. That said, I too am concerned about balance issues, altho not as concerned about MBS and automining as others are.

 

@LzGamer I guess the question then becomes what do you think macro is? When I personally think of macro I think of the strategic aspect of a game like if we were talking about Supreme Commander macro would be commanding your soldiers at in the extremely zoomed out interface. I Starcraft terms I think of macro as the positioning of troops, the decisions about which recourse nodes to take and the way in which you want to attack your opponent. When I think of micro I think of the tactical aspect of the using units abilities to maximize their efficiency along with having your units focus fire on certain targets while evading oposing abilities. Auto-mine doesn't effect either category and MBS only has a small effect on the macro category by making the production of units a little easier as well as only having a small effect on the micro category because of the way its helpful with the movement and control of phase cannons.

Now while thinking of that macro category think of what Blizzard is adding: different mineral yields, observatories (and maybe other captureable neutral buildings), mechanics like Warp In and units that can move up and down cliffs. Blizzard is massively expanding the category I would call macro so how much difference does automating a few smaller things make?

Now take an honest look at Mass Building Selection what exactly does it do? It makes the construction of a larger amount of units easier, and it makes Warp-In viable for someone who isn't a pro, along with making moving a larger amount of Phase Cannons easier for everyone. The first thing will only assisit people who mass a lot of the same unit which is easily counterable by an expert and the last 2 pieces help everyone even if "pros" don't need the help it is still helpful. Thats it thats all it does, how could it possibly be as drastic as you seem to think it is? Auto-mine just again makes life easier for everyone even though it will help newer players more than the "pros".

@Kuvasz the problem with making MBS an option is when the time comes for the game to be released one of them is going to become the standard and slowly people are going to convert to that killing off the community for the other version, also when the time comes for balancing the game some mechanics would have to be balanced drasticly differently depending on whether or not there is MBS so it really can't be made into an option, and it definetly shouldn't be even if it was possible to do so and balance both sides.

 

Wrathling from Teamliquid.net made a great post about actuall MBS implentation:
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You could counter many arguments of the anti-MBS arguers by limiting the number of hotkeys

How many hotkeys to you use ? I have heard more than once that many people will not use more than 5/6 hotkeys because they prefer not to have to use both sides of the keyboard if possible.

How many hotkeys are needed to make MBS a problem?
Lets try with PvT:
1) Gates
2) Robotics Facilities
3) Nexus
4) Stargate

4) Goons
5) Reavers
6) Dropships
7) Hightemplars
8) Carriers
9) Probes

That setup would mean you can only produce 1 type of unit from gates or robos, if you wanted to produce a balanced army you would have to sbs or use more hotkeys. What happens if you were limited to 6 hotkeys (about as many as a large number of players would use anyway)? Well the MBS'er would be at a disadvantage to the SBS'er as, not only would he not be able to hotkey all the units in his army, he wouldnt be able to produce a balanced army. And if you were PvZ, we havent tried to hotkey corsairs, zealots, darktemplars.
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MBS makes the game a lot easier to play initially but hardly gives a advantage in competativ games - look how Production qeues are used. Do they remove macro like the WC2 Pros predicted 10 years ago?

 

Unentschieden thats right, but the most pros build 8 Dragoons then 8 zealots and so on. If you then need HT and DT you can just make 2 control groups: 6-8 gateways for normal units (dragoons and zealots) and 1-3 gateways for special units. Thats just my opinion, and therefore i think that MBS could be turned off in pro games... But the old SCBW players should stop all their critique; and he shall not say that the balance was random, it was DONE by blizzard!

 

The point was that in competative games MBS has little usage. Yes sometimes it is 8 Dragoons and 8 Zealots but then it also could be 2 Dragoons and 12 Zealots or a completely different mix.

It is about the practical inflexibility of MBS in real matches. Try to play a game of WC3 with minimal "basetime". MBS doesn´t really help there.
Why should it be turned off if Pros wouldn´t use itanyway? Do they turn off Production queues?

 

because it does a difference at pro level (it removes multitasking, which IS the greatest aspect at pro level), and to fair it out, Blizzard should be able to make a version that doesn't have it (for pros).