Spam Land

I dunno, didn't you test your mask before you put it on?
We could as well do that now
*cough*

 

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Huh? I've always worn it. Did you try your skin before you put it on?

How long will I have to live?

 

yes

 

=O
mask has three days to live.

 

Lies and slander!!! That quote says "bfore" instead of the original "before" !!! Forgery!
You dirty falsifier!

 

]

 

a lie?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasNdanger
Well, it's kinda been all over the place, but basically I was bringing out how the humans are more Wraith-like than the Wraith - and, in effect - have given Todd his current motivation (with Rodney's encouragement to 'do it for yourself - because you can' in Miller's Crossing).

Well they certainly created Michael and then essentially abandoned their responsability to him by forcing him to choose between two different forms of death.

"Well now that you've grown wise to our plans we can shoot you, or we can erase every trace of your concious being and mutate you into another species that'll die in less than half a century, which is it going to be? What do you mean why can't we leave you alone, you're an evil species silly, if we can't unevil you by making you into one of us we gotta kill you."


Quote:
Not sure if we went into the way the Lanteans have disrupted the PG, etc - but I know I did go into that with Mallozzi on his blog...he just couldn't quite see things my way, however...

I'm shocked really I am.

It's pretty straight forward to me. Earth goes to their galaxy and within a few years millions of members of multiple species are dead. The Asurans, who'd been living a peaceful dormant existence in pursuit of ascencion, are cruely manipulated into waging war on the Wraith, a war that culminates in their outright anihilation when the SGA team decides to swap sides again. Several Wraith have been abducted and tortured for dubious reasons, most notably the pursuit of bio weapons development, but the thing that always seems to get past the goalie with everyone is that Earth is the invaders.

The Wraith didn't just show up in the milkyway one day and start fighting with Earth. Earth went there, violated their territory, killed one of their leaders and now refuses to leave because they think it's their divine right to dictate human centric morality to aliens in another galaxy, from down the barrel of a gun.


Quote:
Agreed. I even asked Mallozzi if as much detail and attention went into character development AND continuity as went into FX...but he, of course, did not address it. heh. Maybe YOU should give it a try. The more voices, the more we're likely to be heard...

I get a feeling that talking to him about the flaws in Atlantis would be a lot like trying to convince Pope Benedict to become an Atheist. If you want to keep trying you have my blessing but I don't personally make a hobby out of iceskating uphill.


Quote:
Hey, I'm already there! I ALMOST took home a little pure white kitten today, with a little black spot over it's left eye...and was gonna name it Todd. It was NOT easy giving the little guy back... *secretly hopes hubby wants to add a 5th cat to the household...*

But see, I'm already there. I see them as extremely sympathetic characters. They need to eat - plain and simple. So, yeah - they're a bit arrogant and conceited and all that, but it's just their nature. I accept that, too - it makes them interesting. I actually want to see a sector of the galaxy for them, and them alone - where they can manage their 'herds' and feed without fear of outsider condemnation (at least until an alternative is found). They actually kept a balance in the PG, preventing human overpopulation which leads to disease, famine, warfare and pollution - wow, basically everything the Wraith are now experiencing for themselves since the Lanteans came and screwed everything up! The thing is, humans can take steps to protect themselves from the Wraith - just like we take steps to protect ourselves from sharks, or lions, or other life-threatening creatures without totally wiping them out. Yeah - I am probably WAY too sympathetic towards the Wraith, but in my head they are simply sentient animals/creatures that deserve to live, albeit in more controllable numbers.

 

Originally Posted by Halzman
Actually, the Atlantians tried to negotioate with the wraith, 10,000 years ago, and what I would image would be the start of the 'war'. So its not like the lantians saw the wraith and just stamped them off as 'evil'.

I'm aware of the Atlantian negotiations but that was as you said, they were 10,000 years ago and we have no idea of the circumstances. I've often wondered how the lantians actually looked at the Wraith as well. Decribing them as a "terrible scourge" and "dark enemy" and likewise doesn't exactly paint one a picture of potential understanding.

It's possible, I'd even say likely, that they only attempted to negotiate with the Wraith once they realized it wouldn't be possible for them to simply wipe them out the way they tried with the Asurans. It was probably more of a plea for mercy on the verge of iminent defeat than a peace negotiation.

Once it looked like the Wraith were actually going to win then they suddenly ceased to be an evil scourge on the galaxy and became just the awesomeest guys in the world and we really like you and please don't finish us off really we're sorry... ok guys time out huh, truce? No hard feelings?

If I was the Wraith grand pubah and they'd really did try to treat my species like some sort of disease they needed to erradicate from existence (which wouldn't surprise me) you can bet I would be grinding them down enough so they could never try it again to.


Quote:
The best thing to do with the wraith, if a peaceful balance is to be acheived, we should work together to obtaining Michael's research. He eliminated the wraiths only weakness - the need to feed. But whats to say that once thats said and done, we still wont go to war with each other? The jaffa/goa'uld couldn't change there ways after 3000+ years, what makes you think the wraith will change there ways after 10,000+ years.

They're driven almost exclusivly by the motive to feed. Take it away and their behaviour would inevitably change. They're not like the Goa'uld where they do what they do primarily because they like dressing up in gaudy costumes and lording it over the unwashed masses. When they're not feeding on them they could care less what humans think of them and take virtually no interest in how they live their lives what so ever.

It stands to reason then that if you remove their need to feed they'll just largely ignore humans in general like they have been for the past 10,000 years when they weren't hungry. They primarily live in space so it's not even really like they're going to compete for living space.

This is getting pretty offpoint now though and I'd rather not continue down this road. There's already lots of other threads around about the possability of making peace with the Wraith and I'd prefer not to just turn this into another one. Feelf ree to find one of the old ones and bump it up again if you want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YutheGreat
It depends really. In my view the queens are simillar to the System Lords with us constantly taking them out they don't feel as terrifying as the keeper when she fed on Col. Summer.

The keeper was scariest yes, I don't think any of the other queens even came close really. You could also figure that her death was sort of a fluke perhaps and not the way it would typically go down but then by the time allies/no mans land was wrapping up you started to see a pattern.

Hivequeens as skeet discs.

The allies queen holds the record for longest life becuse she actually had a throw away scene or two in the episode following the one in which she was introduced. That's kinda pathetic in a 4 year run that that would be the longest lived hivequeen.

Just from a pure logical standpoint, here they are regularly running across these beings that are sometimes thousands of years old and they all end up dropping like flies mere moments after encountering the team. It stretches credability with it's sheer unlikliness. If queens were that easy to kill they never would have lived that long in the first place, and I'm not just talking about pure physical durability here. I'm talking about being clever enough not to expose themselves to unecessary danger or being the arcitects of elaborate and complex plans and tricks that end with their enemies in the eventual crosshairs instead of them.

Hivequeens are entirely too easy to get rid off for what they're suppossed to be. With their age, experience and resources they should be a far more formidable and clever adversary than the show presents them as.


Quote:
I think the situation has been rectified introducing Michael and Todd.

Yes and no. Mike and Todd are a big improvement but again neither one of them is a real Wraith foe. Michael has his own third side, the hybrids, which is seperate from the Wraith, and Todd has been much more of a helpful ally in general than he has been an enemy.

The Wraith still lack their recurring villian character. It's pretty ridiculous. I mean even the replicators got a main villian character, Oberoth, that lived through the first episode and they were around for a lot less time and a lot less central to the series in general than the Wraith. They also even got a few somewhat noteworthy secondary characters like Niam and Fran, again despite only being around for a fraction of a single season.

Why are TPTB so apparently adverse to the idea of creating recurring Wraith characters? Why has it taken 4 years to get Todd and where's his badguy counterpart that the team can actually battle with long term? Why was the decision made creatively to turn Michael into something else instead of just having him revert back entirely from the treatment and using him to put a personal face on the Wraith in future conflicts?

Him and his Allies queen buddy could have made a great set of villians as a pair together. She's got limited resources but is clever and pragmatic enough to look past Michael's history and recognise his talents as a scientist and what they could spell for her own rise in power. Michael's stuck with her more or less because no one else will take him but he's also got an agenda of his own...
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#26 April 28th, 2008, 07:03 AM
SpaceCowboy
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Posts: 77


Re: Has the constant re-killing of Wraith queen characters hurt Atlantis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the biggest reason we don't see a recurring Wraith queen is because if we were dealing with the some one over and over again, Sheppard would have to name her, and we all know how he feels about naming things.
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Wouldn't it be interesting having a female villain though in SG1 they had Hathor, Nirti, Osiris, Amaterasu. They were ok characters stereotype yes but still. The best is Osiris hot and deadly.

In SGA, we have Larrin if we could call her a villian.

Why not have a Wraith queen. Shepard could call her: Sally, Lea, or Stacy?
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#28 April 30th, 2008, 06:55 AM
Ouroboros
First Prime Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,890


Re: Has the constant re-killing of Wraith queen characters hurt Atlantis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by YutheGreat
Wouldn't it be interesting having a female villain though in SG1 they had Hathor, Nirti, Osiris, Amaterasu. They were ok characters stereotype yes but still. The best is Osiris hot and deadly.

In SGA, we have Larrin if we could call her a villian.

Why not have a Wraith queen. Shepard could call her: Sally, Lea, or Stacy?

That actually brings up an interesting point. Has Stargate in general ever had a female main villian. I know you mentioned Osiris and Hathor and the like but even they were kinda secondary villians weren't they, if you think about it.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a big cheese like Apophis, Sokar, Anubis or even Baal for a while there, the sort of villian that's their main focus and "the" badguy for a while.

Adria is the only one I can think of that really fits the bill but even then it wasn't really all about her. They didn't fight "Adria" the way they fought "Anubis" they fought "the Ori" who were actually a notch up the ladder from Adria. Adria herself wasn't even in many of the Ori episodes and her overall role and influence on things was pretty minimalized compared to what it could(should?) have been. It seemed like we saw the Priors (all males) as the "face of the Ori" a lot more than we saw her.

Replicarter's another one but she's not really female and she didn't really last long, probably getting even less screentime than Adria.

So maybe the reason we don't get a real central hivequeen character is that they just don't particularly like using women as a central villian? Even if you look at the Wraith the two recurring characters we did get are both males again... and their society is a matriarchy. Odds are if anyone was going to be forming any grand plans of galactic conquest it would be a hivequeen as oppossed to someone like Michael, a rogue scientist with virtually no resources and absolutely no allies other than what he can personally grow.
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#29 April 30th, 2008, 01:21 PM
YutheGreat
Death Glider Pilot Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 458


Re: Has the constant re-killing of Wraith queen characters hurt Atlantis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, maybe they wanted to shift the paradigm with the Ori. So the Orici was born a woman. Adria though she was not an Ori she was their represented on this plane of existence hence she is top dog. The problem was that the network cancelled SG-1 before Adria could be built up like Anubis.

I was thinking...What if Michael was a female character Michelle? haha
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#30 April 30th, 2008, 07:56 PM
dasNdanger
Royal Guard Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,046


Re: Has the constant re-killing of Wraith queen characters hurt Atlantis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouroboros
I'm aware of the Atlantian negotiations but that was as you said, they were 10,000 years ago and we have no idea of the circumstances. I've often wondered how the lantians actually looked at the Wraith as well. Decribing them as a "terrible scourge" and "dark enemy" and likewise doesn't exactly paint one a picture of potential understanding.

Well, I personally can't stand the Ancients (or whatever they're called) - they're arrogant and self-righteous and have absolutely no sense of humor at all. If the Lanteans of old treated the Wraith like they treated the earthlings in The Return, I'd turn around and suck 'em dry, too!


Quote:
If I was the Wraith grand pubah and they'd really did try to treat my species like some sort of disease they needed to erradicate from existence (which wouldn't surprise me) you can bet I would be grinding them down enough so they could never try it again to.

Agreed! Now - go get a writing job with SGA....


Quote:
They're driven almost exclusivly by the motive to feed. Take it away and their behaviour would inevitably change. They're not like the Goa'uld where they do what they do primarily because they like dressing up in gaudy costumes and lording it over the unwashed masses. When they're not feeding on them they could care less what humans think of them and take virtually no interest in how they live their lives what so ever.

True - though I do believe that Steve liked dressing up and lording it over others...

But, see...I think SGA needs to stop using the SG1 formula! It seems their villains are all the 'same', and their end, the same. The Wraith started out just like the other 'bad guys' - self-absorbed creatures looking for worshippers to bow down and serve them. But now with Todd, and even Michael (pre-FUBAR), we see that the Wraith have a some sort of conscience, or a code of honor. They kill out of instinct, out of a need to eat and survive. But even when the PTB give us something positive, they then turn it negative.

Take, for instance, the Gift of Life. In Common Ground, the gift of life was a beautiful thing - something 'reserved for our most devote worshippers, and our brothers'. But in Reunion, the writers turned the 'gift of life' into a means of torture. THAT totally pissed me off. Why? Because Todd insinuated that the gift of life was a reward - something someone was found worthy of receiving. But in Renunion any honor in it was tossed aside, and it was turned into something ugly.

I think, when TPTB see fans feeling sympathetic towards THEIR villain - instead of picking up on that sentiment and going with it, they do everything in their power to try and make the Wraith (as a whole) look evil again (but not necessarily powerful and dangerous), just because they've got it into their heads that that's the way it has to be...which seems such a narrow view of things. Why can't 'bad guys' change? I fear for Todd, because my gut is telling me that he's going to be sculpted into the next evil villain, which would totally suck. Have Wraith in a more neutral area, with some - like Todd, playing nice, and others, like the Allies' Queen or Sateda's Superwraith, being the big nasties. Individuals within the whole as 'evil', without the whole itself being evil.

/rant


Quote:
The keeper was scariest yes, I don't think any of the other queens even came close really. You could also figure that her death was sort of a fluke perhaps and not the way it would typically go down but then by the time allies/no mans land was wrapping up you started to see a pattern.

Hivequeens as skeet discs.

LOLOL! Exactly! It's a shame, really, because I sometimes totally forget the queens simply because as soon as I see one, I assume she'll be dead by episode's end. Even a few male Wraith have survived, including the one from Condemned, Todd, and the Reunion and Travelers Wraith (though not sure if he's supposed to be the same one in SoW and Midway - same actor, I just haven't checked to see if his facial markings are the same). The Rising male keeper may have survived, too - I mean, that wasn't a big explosion (unless he was Steve, which I have always wondered about).


Quote:
The allies queen holds the record for longest life becuse she actually had a throw away scene or two in the episode following the one in which she was introduced. That's kinda pathetic in a 4 year run that that would be the longest lived hivequeen.

She was great - second-best to Keeper, and such a loss. The places they could have gone with her by letting her 'ride off into the sunset', only to return like a bad penny. I mean, they've done it how many times with Kolya?


Quote:
Just from a pure logical standpoint, here they are regularly running across these beings that are sometimes thousands of years old and they all end up dropping like flies

Pun intended, or no?


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mere moments after encountering the team. It stretches credability with it's sheer unlikliness. If queens were that easy to kill they never would have lived that long in the first place, and I'm not just talking about pure physical durability here. I'm talking about being clever enough not to expose themselves to unecessary danger or being the arcitects of elaborate and complex plans and tricks that end with their enemies in the eventual crosshairs instead of them.

Hivequeens are entirely too easy to get rid off for what they're suppossed to be. With their age, experience and resources they should be a far more formidable and clever adversary than the show presents them as.

 

I come to spam land to plant my flag. I clam this place for the king!

 

the

 

Cool, too bad we don't have monarchy here

 

Who's to say we don't?

*eerie X-Files music*

 

The last time our communist Spam Land had an emperor, not king

 

i put bloodhawks flag on a hill

 

Looks to me as though it's been put in a ditch.

 

could also be


Lenga: surrender or be destroyed

 

nevar!!!