SHOULD blizzard impliment veterancy for terrans?

ohh ok...but the way I look at it, zerg veterancy would be absolutely useless as units die too fast and easily, and protoss veterancy would be crazy imbalanced, because they already have the strongest units in the game. maybe with the siege tank costing more now, this will let terran players be able to use or want to use marines in the later stages of the game

 

I still believe that if veterancy is implemented for the terrans something would have to be give to the other to races. Another idea i have for the zerg is everytime they build a unit there is a small chance (1-10%) that a hero unit is built instead like Ex. i build 12 hydras i get luvky and 2 of them end up hunter killers etc... For the protos any kind of upgrade like this should really lay off there technology like the protoss idea i mentioned earlier. Something you could do with the protoss is have there shields start with 1 plasma armor instead of zero and still be upgradeable 3 times.

EDIT: @Nikzard thats why i keep saying they would need to do something different yet equal for each race.

 

I like that Zerg idea, it really fits well with the Zerg and keeps the balance for the most part, unless you're really lucky and you get like 6 of them per batch.

 

@ Nikzad - Right, but the same things could be said about the current upgrade system. Zerg units die too fast and easily, and Protoss already have strong units. But, those things are countered with the races' abilities and specific units, as well as mechanics. Since the upgrades are more or less identical across the board, Race vs. Race at Level 1 will be the same as Race vs. Race at Level 3. The same thing would happen if all three races got a veterancy. Zerg units would still die more easily, and Protoss units would still be stronger. Giving only the Terrans a veterancy gives them an advantage that isn't countered.

@ LordKerwyn - You are right, if a survivability in combat change was given to the other two races, Terrans could possibly have a balanced veterancy. However, randomness should not be in the game (hero Zerg unit) and Protoss starting with shields Level 1 would be a HUGE advantage. It is really difficult to think of a true balancer, other than veterancy all around.

 

There's a huge difference between upgrades and veterancy. You pay money for upgrades, you kill for veterancy. Protoss units usually live long enough to get enough kills, but Zerg units can't. So it goes to the point where half the Toss units have a veterancy bonus, and none of the Zerg do. It's hard enough to kill a toss unit with a Zerg unit, and once they have veterancy, Zerg is even easier to kill, which results in even more units getting veterancy. ie not balanced, unless Zerg gets some super crazy s*** no one ever thought of, like infested Terrans from hatcheries or something.

 

I know it would be hard to balance im justt throwing out random ideas that could make veterancy work for the terrans without people complaining about the other races getting nothing. In my opinion i like the idea of veterancy for the terrans but without having any idea about how much bonus it would provide it would be neraly impossible to think of stuff for the other 2 races. And like i said the bonus for the zerg should be something that works of the fact they build and use alot of suicidal units and the bonus for the protoss should play off their technology. Really the only way to balance veterancy without giving something to the other 2 races would be to either make the terran units weaker or remove/semi remove the way they normally upgrade.

 

Yeah, but it would be easiest not to impliment it at all. Veterancy might work for other games, but in SC, it doesn't match the feel of the game.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Maybe it doesnt match the feel of the game as a whole but it does go well with the terrans and i think thats why this topic was orignally started. Also in SC2 there reallu should be interesting new mechanics for each team while keeping the "starcarft" feel if it is to much of the same stuff from SC1 that was a long ten years for.........

 

Well, you could only go so much in uniqueness before the balance just gets screwed up, so...

 

I agree. Although this is Starcraft, its also not Starcraft, its Starcraft2.

I like LordKerwyn's idea about mutations for zerg and every X spawn to be a little better than the others, cant really think of anything for protoss, maybe an extra unit every X units built?

Or ressurection, although i can only see it happening with zealots,dark/high templar, archons and MAYBE stalkers,immortals, but ressurection is really getting out of hand, im just brainstorming.

 

like i said before, many people are not looking at the bigger picture, arguments like the one by ninerman below are simply irrelevant because it doesn't look at what are the main determining factors of balance.

is the regeneration mechanism very unbalanced? NO! you can't say whether the regeneration mechanism by itself is balanced or not because it depends on the rate of regeneration, balancing depends on NUMBERS not game MECHANISMS. regeneration is a mechanism, where as the rate of regeneration is a number.

if zergs can regenerate their full health in 2 seconds then yes it would be unbalanced, however in starcraft 1 it actually takes around 2-15 minutes for zergs to regenerate to full health depending on their hp, resulting in the regeneration mechanism being next to useless. the units would die much faster, before they can even regenerate 2-3hp. I mean when have you heard of people utilizing zerg regen as even part of a strategy?

terrans didn't have medic before broodwar and the game was still balanced because the impact of regen was so small it was almost insignificant. now when the medic came people where screaming marine + medic combo being imba because medic did allow terran infantry to regen to full health in 2 seconds (maybe even less) and the zerg players were screaming imba as they simply can’t kill the marines. now medic healing is basically the same game mechanism as zerg regen but healing made people screaming imba where as zerg regen didn’t. again NUMBERS is what to blame. the rate of “regen†offered by healing was much greater than zerg natural regen.

But before long zerg players discovered how the new lurkers would rape m&m and the amount of complaining were much reduced (the noob were still screaming as loud as they could)

Now we come onto veterancy. if implemented correctly, veterancy would become one of many advantages for the terrans, just like their other advantages such as buildings being able to lift off and fly and the ability to repair buildings and units.

why are people not complaining that flying buildings and repairing are not balanced? and even praising blizzard for such innovative features? because their impact on determining victory is small, yet not totally insignificant. all you need to do is to give the veterancy MECHANISM suitable NUMBERS and it would be balanced.

The other point i want to address is some people seems to think when a unit gets promoted, all units of that type also get promoted, that’s simply illogical and no one is suggesting this. the amount of “experience†one can get in a game is limited.

lets just say randomly (ignore scaling and other factors) all terran unit gets promoted one rank for every 5 units they kill and each promotion means 10% increase in fighting capacity. this sound quite reasonable. now assuming for a battle both side has similar number of units, even if terrans completely obliterated the enemy without a single loss only 1/5 of the units will get promoted, the resulting army after the battle will be 2% stronger (1/5*10%) than the army before the battle, and that’s assuming you kill every enemy without losing a unit yourself. omg that’s totally imba!! in a real battle you are lucky to have half your units survive and if you are unlucky all your promoted units gets killed before the battle ends.

what this means is in a competitive game, you can't get an army that's all promoted to the maximum because there simply isn't enough enemy to kill to give you all that experience, if you could kill so many enemy units without losing many yourself then you don't need the veterancy anyway, as you are already pwning the other guy.

If for every kill a unit gains a promotion and each promotion grants 100% increase in power then the results would be different, and veterancy for only one race would become imbalanced, but if you think about why you’ll soon realize the NUMBERS has greatly increased, causing the mechanic to become un balanced.

so like i said many times before, balancing is only a bunch of NUMBERS and everything can be balanced, complaining about a game MECHANISM being imba is short sightedness and not looking at the big picture.

 

Thanks for the support DKutrovsky but i dont think the protoss should get extra units in any way there theme is a small number of really strong units. What about every protoss has a % chance to dodge any given attack? And yes i know peoples feelings about random chance but random chance already sorta exists in starcarft and im not talking about huge chances of things happeneing just every once in ahwile gettimg lucky and having another cool unit appear or living another hit or 2.

EDIT: I completely agree BnechbReaker but you cant impelement something new like this for just one race soemthing would have to be given to the protoss and zerg as well.

 

@BnechbReaker
Exactly, around 90% of units never make it to a veterancy. Which makes the whole thing obsolete. Imo, veterancy's just for companies to put another little blurb on the back of the box trying to get more people to buy the game. "Units can now become stronger when they killed enough enemies!" You should be trying to make your forces last long anyways and kill as much units as you can with them.

@kerwyn
Most people would freak out if there was a chance system involved in SC2 at all. Chances take away from the strategic aspect of the game, which undermines its competitive style of play.

 

While i see your point wick you also dont want SC2 to be chess on steroids where the players who are only a tiny bit better than there oponents win every time. Luck/chance has the ability to make a game more intersting while still having hard counters and strategy be extremely effective.

 

A veteran system does not fit Starcraft one way or another. The style it would be violating would be that of unit attachment. It really is not in line with Starcraft to care about one unit more than another unless that unit has a very specific cause and is easily terminated. Units are easily replaced and have no repercussions when lost if you have enough resources to create more.

Veteran units might also cause a disturbance in general tactics and encounters for all of Starcraft. Part of the game is being able to see a group of units and very quickly assessing any assets and liabilities they might have. When you first see a group of units you can quickly decipher their general specs, whether or not you have chance of winning, and how to control your units accordingly. If units can be potentially different from their general stats then that every battle, mid to late game, will be filled with some uncertainty, and that ruffles the straightforward and present tactical battles that has always made up Starcraft.

Beyond that, the veteran system would have to be given to all races, not just one. With a veteran system in place battle would change dramatically because the potential value of units is not set in stone anymore.

 

@ BnechbReaker - Way to selectively quote my post and totally misrepresent what I was actually saying. I do go on to say HOW the regeneration stuff is balanced by Blizzard, and then I relate it to veterancy and how if implimented just for the Terrans it would be imbalanced. For all who are reading this, please go to page four to read my actual argument.

@ LimaBeanMage - Also good points.

 

@LimaBeanMage

your comment about all 3 races needing vet and general imbalance:

you are not going to fight an army full of vets... you are lucky if you have 5% of your army being vets at any time,

 

how am i misrepresenting what you are saying?
you are saying:

1 the difference in regeneration between the races is imbalanced
2 it is balanced by medic healing, scv repairing and protoss shield battery,

lmao both of those 2 points couldn't be further away from the truth, read my argument at the top of this page

 

I also say that Protoss toughness and Zerg's short-lived-ness are also factors in balancing out the regeneration - not just those things. And my analyzation of Blizzard's balance of the regeneration is a very general one.
*Edit - also, saying that the regeneration was unbalanced is only looking at the three races' core regeneration capabilities - NOT any modifications like Medics, repair, etc. Once you take those into account, it is balanced, and that is what I am saying.*

But the misrepresentation is that you missed the crux of my argument - dealing with how the upgrade system is balanced, veterancy's effect on that system, etc. I am not going to re-outline it here, it is on the other page.