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Scared Zerg?

Discussion in 'StarCraft 2 Story and Races' started by Villiers, Aug 6, 2010.

Scared Zerg?

Discussion in 'StarCraft 2 Story and Races' started by Villiers, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    It doesn't match the reality in game. In your calculations you forget it took time to develop space travel and again not every woman had 10 children so it isn't possible 100's of fringe worlds are populated with substational human population that can in any way stop or even delay the zerg swarm. And from that point to taking the dominion the way isn't long. The ONLY reasonable explanation, which you haven't even suggested but I simply do not see another, is that kerrigan didn't really tried to destroy the Dominion and thus the poor invasion - but once again I despise the entire story arch which focus' on magic artifacts and "purifieng" infested people to make them "good" so they can defeat the "evil" and save the galaxy with floating spirits and mama tereza eye balls.

    Now about wars - they may be good for growth after a few decades, HOWEVER, we are talkin about 3 wars that had only just occured, 1 after the other, so unless kerrigan is fighting billions of babies, it's not possible the sector had experienced a growth in human population.

    In a controled media, people like Kate would not be employed. In any case the entire media is 1 big comic relief (a very poor one) and should not be taken seriously, which makes our discussion about the level of Mengsk's control over it quiet futile.

    The confederacy was not the only existing force. The Dominion isn't the only exsitent force. We are seeing the story from the eyes of a rebels group for god's sake, so we adleast should know and be interested in what's realy going on but all we do is fight the protoss. The entire situation doesn't feel real and more importantly not satisfying.

    Let's not compare the early 20 century technology and situation to 500 years later. The masses move their buts usually during and after devestating wars, like the current decade in the Koprulo space.

    Also please notice how your answers are usually "correction it isnt impossible it's only unlikely" and understand where I'm coming from, cause if many events occured even though its "unlikely" then how can it be realistic and interesting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  2. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    Since Mengsk can kill Tychus in a press of a button I think its quiet irrelevent whether he likes Mengsk or not.

    Now Mengrk KNOWS they have the computer so he should be like: "Findlay destroy it!!"

    Obviously he didn't so Tychus is quiet in a pickle.

    Now as Redlic loves to say it may be possible but clearly unlikely that Mengsk would let such a bad mass up spy to live.

    And as I've said numerous times before, no, its not logical even if he realy believes a small group of rebels can actually get near the Queen of Blades (which makes him insane).
     
  3. toni

    toni New Member

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    First like i said before, if findlay would destroy it then raynor would suspect and therefore all the plan would be ruined. And im not saying that my theory is correct and that is the only possibility. i am saying that it is a theory and that there are much more possibilities that we can think on. We just have to wait until december for the second part of the game where they will fill in some gaps

    Another thing, im not saying that he is but mengsk could be insane, with all the people he murdered in Tarsonis, watching the confederacy nuke khoral and many other things that he has experienced. I woulndt be surprised if he were insane. Again, not saying that he is
     
  4. Siege Tank

    Siege Tank New Member

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    Your premises are inherently flawed. You can't calculate how many humans are necessary to stop a zerg invasion without knowing how big zerg invasions are. Brood war mentions "millions" of Zerg dead during the UED invasion of Char, implying that Zerg really aren't at all as numerous as you think (since that was their capital planet).
     
  5. Reldric

    Reldric New Member

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    My only retort to this is LIFE isint "plausible". The fact of the matter is that anything that we individually may do, or not do is "unlikely" why? Because out of the hundreds of actions I am doing right now, I have chosen one, replying to you. Statistically thats improbable. The FACT of the matter is, that anything and everything in the universe is inherently unplausible. Whether your a Darwinist, or a Creationist the statistical improbability of you Muaddib, and me Reldric, (thats 2 syllables, Rel, and Dric, Neither of which are Red, nor Lic, Reldric its not hard) holding this discussion is utterly dumbfounding, MUCH less so then the events that I have listed as "possibilities"

    Next, in so far as the confederacy not being the only power, true, however the dominion staged a coup which brought into power a totalitarian regime, which was by far the most powerful in the sector. i see nothing at all unlikely about Mengsk seizing power, and control over every single Terran regime in the sector. Hes a despot, and hes a despot that has no real limitations other then the "threat" of the zerg which allows him to enact ever more serious "emergency actions"

    Once again in so far as the whole "we should know whats going on"... Why? Hes a rebel force, a single battleship in the midst of the void, he has no access to vast information gathering nets, he has no access to galactic spynetworks. He only has when he finds, and what people tell him. Its one of the reasons that rebels have such a hard time overthrowing earth governments. Lack of info, and lack of resources. Fighting against an entire sector would be infinitely harder.
     
  6. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    actually, since the UED didn't exactly tried to kill all the zerg but only take over the overmind, it's quit logical that the only zerg they have killed are a couple of millions in the attack on the overmind.

    and that's not "unlikely" that's actually quit likely the answer.
     
  7. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    Findlay could have somehow destroyed it secretly or adleast inform Mengsk so Mengsk could sabotage the Raiders attack on Korhal while still keeping them alive (since he is insane and thinks that a bunch of low lives could kill the queen of blades. right)

    so nope. still makes no sense.
     
  8. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    oh so philosophical come on! why can't you just admit it

    the story sucks and you're making excuses for it.

    this is not a worthy sequel. it's completely the opposite.

    rest in peace dear Kerrigan the writers had butchered you :,-( but I will remember

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Reldric

    Reldric New Member

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    Ok, I understand where your coming from and I think its basically a difference in opinion. Well, that part is obvious, but the point is, I actually like the story, and I am not making excuses for it. I'm not justifying it, and I am not making points about something I don't "really" believe.

    I also dont think your doing any of the above, so the only other option is that we both believe what we do for perfectly rational reasons, and happen to interpret certain situations differently. As such, I think its best to agree to disagree :D
     
  10. RushSecond

    RushSecond New Member

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    Everything Reldric said makes perfect sense, I have absolutely no idea why Muaddib is trying so hard to make himself believe that the entire SC2 story is horrid.

    Anyway, my thoughts:

    Zerg withdrawal for four years - it was said that Kerrigan's zerg were the dominant force in the Koprulu sector at the end of the brood war. Note: DOMINANT. Yes she had by far the strongest force, but she only won ONE battle. The protoss and terran still controlled dozens of planets. Sure, she could have launched the zerg on a long and grueling campaign in an attempt to wipe everyone out. Perhaps that was her plan, but then realized doing so would make her vulnerable to the outside forces she sensed. So instead, she withdrew and eventually explored ancient worlds and was drawn to the prophecy, like Zeratul was.

    Kerrigan no longer being manipulative - in the brood wars, people only sided with Kerrigan because there were some common enemies: the UED and the new overmind, which eventually become one combined force. That's what was perceived as the greatest threat in the sector. When Kerrigan took control of the zerg, SHE became the greatest threat in the sector. Of course no terren or protoss will side with her now since there is no common threat that is as great as she is. So she has absolutely no way of being "manipulative". Sorry you hate to see that go, but it would have been about 1000 times as unrealistic as you claim the current story to be.

    Tychus - he had been a friend and comrade of Raynor for a very long time, and he was even willing to go to jail for life just to ensure that Raynor got a second chance. It's pretty obvious that Tychus would rather die then betray Raynor now, so there is no way that Mengsk could have used him against Raynor. Instead, he used Tychus in an attempt to destroy his other worst enemy: Kerrigan. Mengsk knew Raynor would try to save her instead of kill her. So he sent Tychus away in his marine suit death prison, with the orders to stick with Raynor and, if he ever confronted Kerrigan, kill her. Mengsk didn't risk a thing, sure he had to release one guy who was loyal to Raynor, but so what, if in the end he killed Kerrigan? Anyway, Tychus agreed, because at the time he didn't know what Kerrigan meant to Raynor. But sabotaging Raynor was NOT part of the deal, at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  11. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    Sure.

    And Mengsk, that can appear as a talking head on Tychus' suite is NOT using him to ad least know what the raiders are doing, especially after they steal the computer in the big train robbery mission. OF course.

    And he really believes a small group of rebels can reach the queen of blades all by themselves to actually be able and kill her. Logical.

    You are wrong. The Terrans were crushed in brood war almost completely - first by the UED and then by Kerrigan. In mission Omega, Mengsk clearly states that his army are scraps he managed to organize - NOT the dominion.

    So all the "great" Dominion in SC2 had been built.. in what.. 4 years? And Kerrigan can't handle it? This is ridicules.

    As I've said before, that is less important - what's more important is the fact we have talking ghosts, magical artifacts (which take 3/4 of the entire game) we have a group of rebels that defeat the entire zerg air defense system on the zerg primary hive cluster while they sit in a small ditch being pounded by zerg - which is unrealistic.

    And more importantly it is clear that this entire campaign was meant for 1 purpose alone - to "Purify" Kerriganx

    The same kerrigan that MADE starcraft BECAUSE she was manipulative (not EVIL but HERSELF) that was the entire beauty of starcraft and they... simply scrached it.

    All we do is collect artifacts and disinfact her that is the soul purpose of this game so it would serve the story in the following games.

    Kerrigan made Starcraft she's not evil, she's just herself and loosing zerg DNA should not change it; they have made everything upside down, all of a sudden the Overmind is mother Tereza, but Kerrigan needs to be disinfected. What a ruin.
     
  12. Reldric

    Reldric New Member

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    Feel my self... being... drawn.... back..... in..... must resist.....

    Oh to hell with it.

    Fact: Kerrigans personality that she showed to the world switched drastically after her infestation.

    Fact: Kerrigan was the first and only cerebrate made from an infested alien.

    Fact: Kerrigan from her birth exhibited more aggression, more willingness to take risks, more independance, and more effectiveness then any other named cerebrate.

    Fact: Kerrigan is not fully purified.

    Fact: Numbers were never mentioned in bw, and I myself was amazed that mensks "scraps" was one of the biggest terran forces I saw IN sc bw.

    Take all these together, and its perfectly logical to assume either A. The zerg infestation brought out the latent psychotic in Kerrigan, B. She identified more with her NEW species then her old, so for her new species survival she was prepared to commit atrocities, or C. The Zerg infestation changed her personality.

    Next, the overmind deviated from his prior course in creating Kerrigan, whether that made a good story or not, its still a deviation which seems to me like they set up this story.
     
  13. RushSecond

    RushSecond New Member

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    Mengsk never "appeared as a talking head on Tychus' suit". He just gave Tychus orders over the intercom. That intercom was closed for the entire campaign (meaning Mengsk could NOT see what Tychus was doing in any way) and Tychus only opened it to Mengsk at the end to prove that he was going to kill Kerrigan.

    Quite logical, considering Raynor had gotten close to Kerrigan several times in SC1.

    Sure, in the few days leading up to that mission, Mengsk could only put together a smallish fleet to help attack Kerrigan. It takes far longer than a few days to invade every single terran planet, time in which Mengsk could have far more forces ready to defend.

    She could. She just couldn't handle the artifact.

    Since you are the expert on void energy (which Tassadar had used to kill the overmind) and Xel'naga technology, care to explain how they work and why you find it so unbelievable?

    Almost every single mission in the history of SC is like that. Small force under your control defeats a much larger force. Why are you so surprised now?
     
  14. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    He gave him orders and looked clearly at kerrign and since Mengsk can kill Tychus at any moment it's quit logical he can open the intercoom himslef and if he can't after numerous failures of the Dominion against the Raiders he could have ad least tried to force Tychus into giving him intel about their operations without sabotaging his ultimate goal of taking the Queen of blades - a stupid goal since in SC1 she wasn't the leader of the dominant force in the sector, there is simply no way raynor could handle her at this point and no way Mengsk could have thought about it to actualy reales Tychus, take over him and send him with that kind of intention, when the Queen of Blades isn't even invdind any where.

    Mengsk had much more then a few days - he asembeled that fleet all over the zerg cmpaigne from the point of the destruction of his forces on Korhal by Kerrigan, so he could have come up with much more if there actually were (here also come the entire discussion about terran population - see the terrans were 32,000 people that landed on 3 plantes after 200 years it's not possible they are billions of people that inhabits 100's of planets).

    The Terran society is in complete ruin at the end of brood war there is nothing but scraps of forces but all of a sudden we have a dominant Dominion empire once again? Finne it could happen (even though unlikely or not plusible or what ever) but it's not INTERESTING it feels.. Klichea.. been there done that, it feels boring - once again Kerrigan fights the dominion an she even looses and can't wipe them out like she is suppose to.

    and because of what? a stupid articfat? what is this world of warcraft?

    talking ghosts?

    it feels childish - not the mature and interesting story of brood war.

    it sadenss me that kerrigan needs to be "purified" or what ever becuse she's not evil, why should the lose of the zerg DNA change her? she's not under the control of the overmind, everything she did was because she wanted to, and it wasn't out of evilness, THAT's the beauty of her charachter, that's the beauty of starcraft brood war (not the first) which was a true masterpiece - which is praised a lot due to her charachters - but now she's ruined by a stupid artifct which isn't even the point of story!

    we are fighting evil aliens and evil end of the world prophecies. what a stupid story.
     
  15. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    Kerrigan was controled by the overmind in SC1.
    in SC Brood war she isn't.

    now, after everything she had been through, her personality had changed - people change.

    situations and life experience change them.
     
  16. Reldric

    Reldric New Member

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    .... your first 2 lines make no sense since I never said anything about her being controlled so I have no idea what you are countering

    lines 2 and 3, while making a bit more sense seem to have no relevance.

    Lastly your entire argument revolves around couldn't, wouldn't, and didn't. As such you declare time and again that the story is "stupid" poorly put together" and "impossible"

    Unfortunately you neglect to realize that

    A. Every SINGLE thing you say "couldn't" happen could.
    B. Every SINGLE thing you say "wouldn't" happen could.
    C. Every SINGLE thing you say "didn't" happen did.

    Like it or not, in a space opera with the backstory of sc1, and bw every single thing that happens in sc2 is plausible. Nothing is impossible, nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Whether its implausible is irrelevant.

    Furthermore your arguments don't change, you regurgitate the same core beliefs cloaked in different colors.

    If you dislike the story thats fine. I believe that you are making a snap decision based on the first chapter, but its your choice. I will leave off with saying the characters are not infaliable, and deciding that the story sucks because they made bad decisions makes no sense.
     
  17. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    of course it could happen, they can write - one day a star exploded and killed everybody - the end.

    and it would happen - so?

    once again you said numerous times, and i'm quoting,

    "unlikely"
    "difficult"
    "implausible"

    etc.

    you can find the story interesting. i don't. and many feel the same: here's an interesting review you should read

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member...=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R2O9GFH8DAQERD
     
  18. Siege Tank

    Siege Tank New Member

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    The Brood war story was stupid and implausible well, though. Only that time Kerrigan instead of Raynor was the Mary Sue who killed everybody, that's why you like it.

    Blizzard is really good at gameplay and themes, things like that. But actually making logical stories for their games? Nah.

    If Usama Bin Laden told the Pentagon that he'd become nice, and offered them an alliance against China, do you think they'd be all okay with that? No. Do you think they would let his forces watch their backs? No. Same thing with the Kerrigan arc in SC: Brood war. It's utterly retarded that she manipulated several huge military forces (no doubt with acces to tens of thousands of intelligence personnel and their resources) and they never suspected a thing until it came up and bit them in their asses.
     
  19. Muaddib

    Muaddib New Member

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    I think you are wrong and I will explain.

    In Brood War Kerrigan is free from the Overmind, now that doesn't make her marry sue, but neither does it make her automatically evil (what she did was probably because, well, being controlled by a giant eyeball doing atrocities for.. is.. quite a changing experience) and now that she's free she offers help and expresses fear from the new Overmind.

    In the first zerg mission she assembles her alliance: Raynor, Mengsk and Fenix, all of whom aren't "huge military forces" but small groups, and explains why the UED is a huge threat for them all, saying something like "Jim you have read Earth's history you know what they are capable of.." and Jim CONFIRMS it (Mengsk wants the Dominion back and Fenix trusts Raynor).

    Now combined TOGETHER, in a LONG series of battles they managed only to cripple the UED's grip on the sector, at which point Kerrigan betrayed Mengsk and Fenix, destryoed the new Overmind, took control of ALL zerg and besically managed to outmaneuver well.. everybody.
    While HERE we managed to destroy the, supposedly and no doubtfully, most powerful force in.. 3 missions in 1 suicidal attack on the primary zerg hive cluster with no preparation, no side missions to cripple her forces, made by a small group of rebels and 1/2 of a crippled Dominion fleet? Well it "might" happen, but it's.. not likely.. as Redlic loves to say.

    All of the above Brood War events, actually, are EXACTLY what makes the Brood War plot so good! Cause there is no "evil" or "good" only politics and interesting and unpredictable twists, I really felt like reading a good book (while SC2 is all cliches and predictable events which feel like a bad movie).

    P.S
    1. The only plot hole I see in Brood War - is how exactly did Kerrigan took over Raszagal.
    2. Listen, on it's own it's a nice game, maybe even good, but it's not on it's own. That's the entire point - this game is a sequel to probably the best game ever made and the expectations from it are higher - this game is basically SC1 with slightly better graphics, new units and a mediocre childish cliche story. Disappointment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2010
  20. RushSecond

    RushSecond New Member

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    Tychus would rather die than betray Raynor. And if Mengsk had a hidden camera planted on the suit without Tychus knowing, Raynor would have found it and disabled it, and possibly even kick Tychus out and ruin all Mengsk's hopes of killing Kerrigan.

    He released Tychus at the beginning of SC2, not during SC1.

    No. Mengsk lost a few battles on Korhal and Char. The Dominion was not in total ruin, almost all of Dominion controlled planets and forces were intact.