Sc2 Zealot Rush

Beat you to the post:

Anyway, this has gotten way off topic. I don't think Zealot rushes will be particularly effective in StarCraft2 because each team has a way to counter it. The only way to pull it off would be to get the Zealots before they've got any decent defences which is hard to do considering the Zealot's cost and build time.

 

In Sc1 I can make a Zealot by 1:30 - 2:00 minutes. I could make it earlier but I wouldn't have enough minerals to keep constant waves of them pumping out.
Sc2, you start with 6 workers meaning the time will be much shorter, and we all know a Zealot in your base can do much more then one Marine or Zergling.

 

yes, but your opponent starts with six workers too They will not have one Zergling (what?) or one Marine they will have several Zerglings, or maybe a Queen, and they will have multiple Marines and/or have a Bunker coming up. Don't expect early-game to be any easier for a race than it was in the previous game, it'll just be different.

 

Neon I think if we keep the games as it is right now, protoss will be able ro rush much more effective, because Zerg needs an expo, and a 9 expo wouldnt work, so 12 is still the best choice, and I dont think the Pool will come much faster. The other possibility is that the Zerg MUST go Pool, and doesnt that just remove strategy? 4 workers is the best number IMO, because it adds a lot more choices of build-orders (imo)!

 

Agreed. It should stay at 4 workers.

 

I'd also prefer players to start with four worker units. It seems like a reasonable number and six is getting a bit too crowded. To speed up early game, would just giving players more minerals help? It would open up more rush possibilities, especially for Zerg, however this isn't necessarily a good thing, also Protoss and Terran players will still be slow because of their production queue, but if players start with about two hundred minerals or something, enough for a worker and a Barracks/Gateway/Spawning Pool with a few minerals left over, then production could start a lot earlier which would speed up the start of the game.
Anyway, just an idea. Not sure if it made too much sense, it's late. I'm off to bed.

 

I dont understand what you guys are saying , why would starting with 6 workers do any different then starting with 4. Everyone will have the same numbers of workes and minerals. Everyone is starting by building 6-7 workers anyway.

I don't know if you guys saw some SC games but everyone starts building workers when a game starts, and they usualy build more than 1, at least 2, before starting to build and scout. (OMG he has 6 workerz nowz Hackz!)

Blizzard did a really good job in reducing the game starting time. The ONLY difference there is with 6 workes instead of 4, is that the Overlord will have less time to scout for the ennemy base before they get marines to shoot it down. Thing is that players tends to use drones to scout anyway it's fasta

 

IMO 200 minerals is way to much. I love when I get 5 pooled and I have to use the layout of my base to defeat constant waves of them while they go for my workers and Zealots, the fact you have to use workers defensivly simply shows the dynamics.

I created a topic dicussing the workers: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4523

No more discussion of which number of workers would be better in here, thank you.

 

To get back on topic...

Who do you think will be most vulnrable to an early Zealot rush; I've ionly seen that vs Zerg but not Terran in any recent player matches.
Since the Medic is now a Medivac Dropship that means you won't get the medic til a later tech. Does this mean Terran has to rely on Marauders and Bunkers to hold off those deadly Zealot rushes?

 

zealots charing will be able to desync hammers.

 

I think that zerg and protoss are going to be the only ones that can be rushed. Terran can turtle themselves in too easily and quickly to be rushed by anything other than cliff bypassers, and by then its not really a rush.

 

agreed. I dont think zerg have much to worrie about. every one thinks the new game build is too fast for the other races but the zerg will be left behind dure to the fact they have to wait on larva, i think the'll be ok aslong as they just get a queen. Getting a rush while you correctly use a queen shouldnt hert so bad.

 

To address the concerns raised in the opening post, especially in regards to "early Protoss rushes," I have some input. Basically, Charge will have no impact. The earliest(or at least early enough to be considered "early") Zealot rush is just plain Zealots, leg-upped Lots are tier 2. From the tech trees we've seen so far, Lots are still at the exact same spot on the Toss tech tree as they were before in SC1, so the timing of early Lot rushes should be the same as before in relation to everything else.

Protoss vs another Protoss, both going ONLY Zealot rush. One goes straight early Lots while the other chooses BO specifically for leg-upped Lots, plain Lots will win out timing wise. By going for leg-up, you are already giving up on an possible rush timing that existed earlier in the game, knowingly. You are choosing a specific tech over timing. If you are talking about "gradually" transitioning into leg-upped Lots, then you must also account for your opponents "gradually" transitioning into Lurkers, Mutas, Tanks, etc. Either way, earliest rush-able timing is not the issue. That's not unlike saying just because Zerg could 4 pool, they always win due to timing. Or hell, SCV rush beats all because of timing.

Legs upgrade is to improve the Zealot's in-combat performance, much more so than it is to just improve generally movement, the same is true for Charge. The faster a melee unit can close in on a ranged attacker, the more advantage the unit strips away from its target. Charge improves on that respect, greatly increasing the Zealot's usefulness in actual combat. Charge also is a great improvement in positioning, improving the efficiency and rate at which individual enemy units are taken off the field. Actually, based on all the crazy stories I heard from Jon, it sounded like Charge almost would boarder OP.

Even if there was a minor trade off in general movement speed, I would say the benefits of Charge more than make up for it. But I kinda do remember reading that Charge came with the Leg Enhancement upgrade, but not 100% on that. But in any case, early Protoss rush timing is unaffected. However, Zealot's overall usefulness and effectiveness is, in a good way.

Someone else said SC1 Protoss tier 2 is Citadel of Adun, and that Cybernetics is tier 1.5, that is incorrect. Protoss tier 2 is at Cybernetics. People confuse tier divisions of Protoss and Terran because they compare it to Zerg's tech tree based on timing. Just because you can tech up to something quickly doesn't make it a lower tier. The whole reason why the term "tier" is used in the first place is because it is based on tier structure, not timing.

Also, the use of the term "tier" would sorta make the reference to half-tiers, the 1.5s and 2.5s, technically incorrect. It's like saying "get on the 3.5th stair on a stairway", you would be floating in air half a stair height above the 3rd stair. If tier 1.5 was really an actual tier, then it would be tier 2. It is the whole reason why people use the term "tier" in gaming in the first place.

 

remember savior's zerg game on the demo playing against the protoss?? it looked like zealots got tougher able to outpower those zerglings,, maybe thats just because there were no support like sunken colonies or something.. uhmm can any1 confirm if its just the queen able to deploy those defensive structures or will the drone be also able to mutate into some of those, coz it looks like zealot rush would be a possible threat for a zerg player..

 

only the Queen can build defense structures, the queen died in the matches is because the zerg player, savior, didnt build any defense structures at all.

@ Remy yes the Leg Enhancement is included in the research of Charge. i asked Jon that in one of his threads, i cant remember the name of it at the moment.

FOUND IT ITS SOMEWHERE IN HERE:http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4004

 

im a bit confused coz sum threads say that they recently brought back sunken colonies, that true? if so then now zerg can at least has some tough defense against those zealots...

 

lol thets good idea but think how mutch it will be cost to u one protos can kill 3 or 2 litle zergs

 

Yes Sunkuns are back so the Zerg have a chance on those earlier rushes, although the Sunkuns have to be cheaper considering you gotta make a Queen and Evolution Den Spawning Poll to get a Queen.

 

Spawning Pool, not Evolution Den. And I agree, Sunkens should be around 75 mins max, which is still cheaper than SC1 since there's no Creep Colony involved.

 

after sseeing the new tech tree, i'm concerned alot with the zerg and where they stand on there defence issue. Zerglings just dont seem to cut it agenst Zealot (i mean they never really have that early), but is it just me or dose it seem to be even worse now in sc2?? Am i going mad or are the protoss zealots seeming Way stronger then zerg early game units. After watching the game replays even tho there old it just puts me in pure amazement how badly a zerg player got domonated in 2 matches... Zealot 2 Immortals and then Zealot to colossus while the zerg player didnt make it to the roach. Maybe he just didnt know (i'm going with this scenario or the scenario where he dose know the units but he cant reach them...). I have high hopes that at WWI zerg would of made a major turn around and will be very stable agenst the other races....

What do you guys think?