Resource gathering systems

okay, than every nexus has one of these buildings and if it gets destroyed probes couldnt use that one but could use others

 

@ forsaken. one reason I said it would take 50 60 minerals to harvest from each fields was to avoid the chp economy. If the economy is noo cheap we will have runaway economies and the skies will be ruled by carriers/motherships. Of course the mining thing can still be for an upgrade to pylons but it should still require some sort of mechanism on the minerals themselves that prevents the economy from being cheap.

 

to jamaylotts - dude what you wrote was exactly what i wanted to say - though my english sucks and i can't exprime myself verry well. They way you pinted the mineral gathering is exaclty how i imagined it when i made tjose drawings. Also i support the zerg extractor self extracting without drones, but via same connections as those crystalids. Also the assimilator ideea was missunderstod in a way - yes it is similar to the way undeads gathered gold in war3 because also undeads looked alot like the protoss in many ways. But the assimilator would be capable of holding 3-4 probes inside and those things appearing on the assimilator's sides appear only to show how many probes are inside - one for each probe - only design purpose. They don't show the probe itself while it's gathering. To balance - the assimilator is the only vespan gatherer that requires more micro - works only in psy field. I think the protoss psyfield should have a great improtance in just about everything - as a different ideea it should also be upgraded to repair/heal structures/units inside of it - as a late game upg - say only after fleet beacon or could have requirements for a new structure , an advanced one.

 

haha, right on nubis, im glad.

Okay well, FOR THE SAKE OF GOD, lol, i think this thread needs to be pushed onto the main page because, well, its pretty huge.

I mean lets look at what blizzard has given us thus far so that we can make some sort of concensus here.

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Blizzard has confirmed that:

a) There will be resources worth more per load, aka, the different coloured minerals and "red gas" located at hard to defend expansions on the map.

b) one the two main focuses for the devs form now until the title ships is keeping the races VERY UNIQUE and of course, BALANCED..... they are looking for a GBD btw if anyone wants a job.....

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okay and this thread has confirmed that:

a) We want more ways to gather

b) we want the RACES to gather resources DIFFERENT WAYS

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now for the abilities which have been discussed here... dont worry, this isn't just a repeat i hope....:

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ZERG
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A direct supply line from resources across the map from nearly any resource - I say nearly because that is the parameter which implies balance rather than just blatant ownage

)[]( so, how do we balance the ambilical cord? here goes

1) Make it hard to defend. if severed at any point, will instantly cut all supply, forcing the line to be rebuilt at a cost and time delay

2) code the class which deals with the cord (thats CSC 110 there) so that after a given distance on the map, the ambis join together into a larger cord, which has slightly higher defence than one small one, but when severed comepletely cuts off that supply line - this would mean that around a main, there would be SEVERAL tiny cords which would be painstating to sever one by one, but if it was a "pipe line" across a 1/3 of the map, it would be large and easily severed if un parolled. [hehe, whadaya know, patrolling all of a sudden has a PURPOSE NOW! haha]

3) DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT REVEAL ANY SHROUD except around the chrisalid egg - I mean, no black out, but make it appear as if it is a currently unmonitored space on the map which has been previously discovered. this would be AWESOME because you can see your cord on the map, but its shrouded, so an enemy can be like "oo whats this?" and follow it back to your main or the next closest hatchery.

wow okay now for the

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PROTOSS
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okay, so if they can warp in units, why not warp in resources right? lol.... I think its very easy to balance this with the phase prism requirement as well as the risk factor while gathering.... if you have 5 gatherers, who take 25 seconds to gather 75 minerals each and then simultaneously beam them back to the main, then you could loose that 425 minerals if they are destroyed before they warp them back..... this sounds punishment enough considering the unit is like 150 mineral 50 gas unit to produce and are weakly shielded. However, if defended with the right resources, could prove to be a VERY USEFUL LATE GAME tactic.... especially with the high cost of toss units..... factor in multiple team play and you got a whole crap load of econoplay going on there.


and lastly the

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TERRANS
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does anything REALLY need to be changed here? Perhaps a speed boost for scouting? I think the original mechanics are great... the ferry system is CLEARLY different from the groups new ideas, so why not just leave it at that?

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Perhaps if we factored in some abilities for the unique gathers, such as worker-to-worker delays (ensare casts that only affect workers) or some speed boosts for quick movement or get aways/micro ect. well, the resource-warp and the ambilical pipe line are abilities, arent they? haha

freakin love this thread, FREAKIN LOVE THIS FORUM, WOOT TO ADMIN!

post it!

jamay.

 

great post jamaylott owerup:

just a few additions on gas collection

the zerg extractor will extract gas on its own without needing workers
the terran gas collection stays the same
the protoss probes work inside the assimilator and because of superior technology, the get 3 gas per "trip" from depleted gaysers instead of 2.

 

what do you mean work inside the assim? this is what blizzard is doing right now? how does it work exactly? no ferry system?

 

they work like Anubis suggested in his first post, like wisps in gold mines in wc3

another idea is making the basic assimilator cost 25 minerals and only enough room to hold one probe. but you can upgrade the assimilator 3 times, for 25 minerals each and adding an extra capacity each time.

 

If you wanted to play up the differences between the races, it wouldn't really require all this effort.

To expand on your current idea but make it a bit more realistic, you could have three central ideas:

Zerg drones would be "sacrificed" one per patch and would remain there until killed. They woudl create an egg, and send a tendril almost instantly back to the hatchery. They would be slightly harder to kill in this form (maybe more like 100 hp) but could not be removed from those minerals until it had been used up completely. This would reinforce the "sacrificing" of the Drones for building purposes..... Also, the Zerg would then have the ability (with a time factor involved) to use distant minerals (just as you said) and would send a tendril back to base. It would be both cuttable and would allow for easy directional scouting.

The Protoss could focus more on their one unit for strength idea by having only one central Nexus. You could then develop "mini" nexuses, which build quicker and are cheaper, but require pylon power. The Protoss could also have the option of researching "super-probes" which take up supply, and act to simply increase the efficiency of probes. Think of faster probes who can carry slightly more minerals.

The Terran could use the Thor or another unit (such as the Dropship) to gather large amounts of minerals from remote locations without a Command Center. You could land the Thor/Dropship, etc. and then have a group of SCVs there to mine. They would then fill the Thor/Dropship to capacity. If it's the dropship, it would then fly back to base to deposit the minerals over a CC. The Thor would obviously have to just give the minerals to the player. Perhaps there would be a percentage reduction in the minerals during the transfer. (The Thor has a capacity for 600 minerals, incidentally the cost of itself, but it only sends back 500 minerals per that 600)

 

Remote mining has been used in other games and is not exactly new. This can create some problems when you want to balance out the Terrain.

Remote mining allows you to mine minerals from unfavourable areas. The problem with remote mining is that the AI is complex, favours the Terran when they get that tech if the area is too small or risky to build a base there.

First, why is the AI complex? When remote mining, you want the unit to give the minerals to a transporter to return via the shortest route to a CC instead of it itself going back. Obviously making that happen is hard.
Second, how are you going to design such that your SCVs don't run out of space to deposit minerals? Perhaps a flying loading bay would suffice, everything your transporter coming back to load from it the minerals to return home. Or simply spare transporters. And what happens when the loading bay is full/no more transporters left. Do the SCVs stop mining? Or do they start putting minerals on the group for enemy units to take?

Going to other races, will the protoss and zerg have similiar features? Or will there be some maps that favour Terran only? Will the Terran have access to extra minerals or will this special feature be not so useful to them that it balances out?

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Moving to Zerg. Would it take time to be sacrificed? Would this mean Zerg have delayed harvesting time? Would they be vulnerable to worker rush, since they cannot move? Would this be similar to remote mining(drones go to a mineral and then sit there, bring minerals back)? How easy is it to right click on the tendril to attack it. And what happens when a base is destroyed? Do the eggs become useless until a fresh drone is brought back? Can these eggs burrow? Should the drones be able to morph back to normal form to rebuild a base? Or is killing the hatcheries and larvae good enough to cripple the zerg?
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The ideas are good, but I want to raise some concerns, mainly about zerg. When the mechanics change they could easily become the weakest race at the start. Could somebody could answer my concerns?

 

As an answer to these concerns :
Protoss mchanics - as a mineral gatherer they have a bigger drone, i called it the worker - gathers minerals for a higher amount at a lower speed - requires a psy field to work but no nearby nexus. So basicly the strong part about them is that they warp in their resources but they can only do so if inside a psy field - take out the pylon and boom economy ; as vespan gathering they have a modified assimilator that can hold 3-4 probes inside and with each one generates vespan faster, but also requires a psy field. So basicly protoss gain more automation at the cost of psy dependancy.
Terran - they don't get any new mechanics since the way they gather is verry terran like.
Zerg - as minerals gatherer, the drone goes on a mineral depot and morphs into a crystalid - after morfing a connector is sent to the hatchery - if the connector is broken the drone no longer send minerals - advantages: the drone is protected by an enemy raid but the connector isn't. After destroyed the crystalid needs to grow back another connector. For more than 3 crystalids, the connectors unite into one large connector - gains more health/armor but is easyer to target. Disadvantage - there is still need for a hatchery ( a new primary building can also be created - lets say resource processing nodule - that is faster built and cheaper than a hatchery and can recive these connectors ), and once the connector is destroyed another one needs to grow back. As for vespan - the extractor self gathers vespan - at first at low rate but has an extra 2-3 upgrade slots - vespan pomps - that increase the gathering speed. Each pomp is like an addition to the extractor ( something like the nuclear reactor or tech lab for teran structures ) and can be destroyed, reduceing the gathering speed.
I hope this answers your concerns. Resource ammounts , gathering speeds and other parameters are subject to change for balancing issues.

 

You still didn't answer my worker rush question. How is the Zerg going to protect themselves from worker rushes? How are drones going to be useful when they cannot rebuild a base?

 

What base. In my second ideea i said that the zerg should have smaller resource gathering bulding than is easyer constructed, and requires luess resources (say about 150-200). They don't need to rebuild the crystalids. They remain on the minerals until destroyed and the drone inside killed. If the connector between the crystalid and the resource depot is destroyed a new one will be grown (say in about 40-50 sec). Imagine that in the time they build there supply depot and crystalids (drones don't need a hatchery/supp depot arround to morph into crystalids), the protoss need to build that large mineral gathering drone (that takes longer than a normal one), build a pylon, and also deploy the worker into psy field - wich for balancing issues can be a process that requires time (say the deploy animation would need 15-25 sec). While the terrans need to build the CC to recive minerals wich you know takes alot of time.

 

my major problem is: the protoss probe cant be used effectively as builder anymore

 

With my ideeas protoss have 2 basic units : the prob - builder and vespan gaheter and the worker (name subject to change) gathers only minerals - higher ammount, no need for nexus, requires pylon field.

 

yes, but with wath do they start?

 

Nonononono!!!!

When the drone morphs into crystalids they can't morph back. So when your base is destroyed you can't rebuild it back. unless you have redundant drones lying around!!!

And you still haven't answered my question of how to counter worker rushes. The zerg drones can't move!!! How do they defend their hatchery?

 

You would have the "option" of turning into a christalid. It wouldn't be required.

 

They said you can't do that....or the last time i saw that post

 

1 probe and 2 workers. In order for the worker to work, the nexus will have an abillity - as long as the worker is in the vecinity of the nexus it can be enpowerd by the nexus (sort of like how terran Mturrets gain detect ability while near a radar tower).

 

the crystalid acts like a bunker. once built holds the drone. if you want to can get it out of the crystalid and use it arround and the crystalid remains there but wont do shit without a drone inside.