Reason why zerg is UP.

Eh, yea, I am a total troll actually :laugh:

None of you obviously have looked at Starcraft 2 forum, where there is a 35 page thread about this... It's ridiculous! I thought most of you must have seen it... but no.

The thread itself is only about "replacement workers" but I added some morphed units here just so maybe people could see how ridiculous how bad this logic is :wacko:.

This forum seems to be a lot more intelligent though.


Zerg is UP though. But it has to do with the amount of choice they have and slightly with not as good units.

 

Well, it's been fun seeing you then. I am delighted to have experienced the feeling known as nerd rage.

It seems the forums are offline, so I can't look for myself.

 

I'm willing to bet minerals that this is the case.

On a more serious note, I actually sniffed around the official forums and found the aforementioned thread. I read about ten posts before getting a massive headache. Why people consider the replacement Drone to A) be mandatory or B) part of the cost of the Hatchery, I have no damned clue.

 

okay, that thread makes my brain want to strangle me more than usual.

 

Yes that's the thread! But even more surprisingly it's not the only one.... There is one that says crawler costs 175 minerals too :wacko:, When I saw that thread, I couldn't believe it. But then someone linked me to 35 pages of the same (or 36 now), and I went like"DAMN". So I made account here and tried if anyone falls for this. Should have copied the original though and maybe someone would have. It's really too obvious with the zergling -> baneling....

 

Lol in the end it's 50 minerals, a extra zergling isn't likely to change the side of battle so yano

 

Bottom line is blizz is unlikely to change anything you want changed.

So play protoss!!

 

I don't see how to OPs math is off:

Unless you built a hatchery at the original 6 supply laugh Then you:

Make a drone (50 mins)
Make the hatchery (300 mins)
and it IS necessary to make that replacment drone, because if you don't, your economy will lack. Although theoretically you do not factor this into the cost, realistically you have to. Without that one drone, you're essentially losing minerals/gas. Albeit not a whole lot in this one instance, but a drone is a drone and it does need to be replaced. If a zerg player isn't pumping a drone out to replace the ones that become structures, you're gonna run dry pretty quickly.

 

The OP is double-counting the drone. To make a hatchery, you either:
a) Make a drone for the express purpose of building a hatchery (50 for the drone + 300 for the hatchery = 350), in which case the drone does not need to be replaced because it was never gathering resources in the first place, or, more likely,
b) Pull a drone off your line to build a hatchery (300 for the hatchery + 50 to replace the drone) - the 50 that you spend to build the drone in the first place doesn't count towards the hatchery, because that 50 was spent on collecting resources, not on building a hatch

 

It's sort of like a loophole as to what you want to categorize the first drone as, so no one will really ever be right. Technically you spent 50 to make a drone at some point, built the hatchery for 300, and then spent another 50 to replace that drone, so it equals out to 400 in theory. But then if you'd like to say that that one drone was one of the original 6 you didn't pay for, then in that case it equals to 350, and there are a lot of ways to look at it.

This isn't really a big issue though, I'm more concerned with chrono boost and mules compared to the spawn larvae ability (all of them macro abilities). I mean, protoss can chrono boost out as many probes as they want (especially if they slip and let some energy store up) and use one worker to do all the building, and then head back to the mineral line if they'd like. Since the Nexus is dedicated to producing probes, this doesn't interfere with them at all as long as they keep up with their supply.

With zerg however, the queen can spawn larvae only on 1 hatch at a time, so at the beginning of the game you can only spawn a max of 7 drones at at time. If you need an OL or something else, that cuts down the amount you can make as well. If you forget to spawn larvae, it is no where near as forgiving as forgetting to chrono because you can't stack spawn larvae and your queen ends up sitting there (unless you spam creep tumors). So to solve this, you'd need an expo and another queen, and also units to protect that expo. Since zerg can't attack air early (yes the queen, but unless you have 2+ you aren't going to totally defend against early air, and against a full air attack queens just aren't going to do it) you'll need hydras, which are mineral and gas heavy in the early game. This means you need to use most of your larvae to make drones (then use those drones to make extractors and any defenses you may need). All this while a Toss player is still chrono boosting their econ and units, and probably has warp gates that can get units faster than you can spawn them.

This isn't a rant it's just something I've observed, I'd like to hear what you guys think about this as well.

 

No - it is fundamentally incorrect to call a hatchery 400 minerals, leaving aside the question of the original 6.

If I spend 0 minerals, I have:
0 drones
0 hatcheries

If I spend 50 minerals, I have:
1 drone
0 hatcheries

If I spend 350 minerals, I have:
0 drones
1 hatchery

If I spend 400 minerals, I have:
1 drone
1 hatchery

400 minerals gets you a hatchery and a drone, not a hatchery.

 

This is exactly why I said it is technically 350 minerals, but realistically it is 400 because you aren't going to not replace that drone, so it basically forces you to spend 400 minerals even though technically the hatch only burns 350.

Put it this way: You need more gathers, and you also need an expo. You pump out 1 drone that becomes the expo, but now you don't have one that you can gather with, so you spawn another, costing another 50 minerals. So in the end, you're spending the same or more money than the other two races, while pulling drones off the mineral line.

 

My last post on the subject... you're not "forced" to spend 400 minerals. You can spend 400 minerals if you want both a hatchery and 1 more drone than you originally had. You either spend money to build a drone to build a hatchery, or you spend money to build a hatchery and replace the drone you used. You don't spend money to build a drone to build a hatchery and then replace it - this leaves you with 1 more drone than you started out with. If everytime a zerg player built a building he spend 100 more than the building's cost, the number of drones he had would continue to grow.

If at any point I have
x drones
y hatcheries

It costs me 350 to get to
x drones
y+1 hatcheries

If I spend 400, I end up with
x+1 drones
y+1 hatcheries

 

I can't believe you people are really still discussing this shi*. It's so obvious... :laugh:

 

damn, people, go back to school and finish your grade 1 math.

"so, timmy, i have a box of oranges. they cost 25 cents each. how much do you pay to buy 2 oranges?"

"ONE DOLLAR, because it costs 50 cents to buy 2 oranges and another 50 cents to buy 2 more to put back in the box."

 

Youre completely missing the point, because obviously this doesn't apply to anything outside the realm of SC2 Zerg.

 

i'm not missing the point, you're just missing the math.

 

it is 350 for a hatchery. while you spent 400 to ended with one hatchery and one drone, other people would have to spend 50 to have that SCV so you are only 350 out.

this is simple math. you double dipping the drone.

however I felt frastrated everytime when I need to build a gas extraction or any defensive unit like the spine crawler, because I lose a drone whenever I do that. I can calculate every Zerg unit to be +50 on cost because of the drone lost, yet the time you lost for lossing a drone is also quite important.

zerg's units are more expensive because of it. I think that will have to be justified by zergs' production dynamics. zerg can produce 14 drones in one production life cycle after a good spray on two hatcheries, but terrans can produce how many? 2.

 

So... much... fail... logic... *head explodes*

 

Lol. Is it so hard to understand? A terran will want to buy his rax, but oh, he should boost his economy. So his rax forces him to build an scv. Got it? So, a barracks costs 200 mins, not 150. Got it? Wasn't so hard was it.