Protoss Unit Roster: A Review (with suggestions)

Oh, I meant the added idea about the Haunt having an energy bar, which runs down - and when it hits zero the unit is gone.

I like BnechbReaker's idea that detector units could show up the Haunt as a blur. Then, opponents at least have a possibility as you say of finding and destroying the unit. But yeah, I'd like to see the Dark Templar - who have spent centuries operating in stealth - demonstrate that they are the sneakiest race.

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Oh yeah, and later today when I have time (woot - weekend here) I'm going to edit the first post... make it more in line with the feedback I've gotten... the "Osprey" for example, was obviously not well thought out. If Blizzard does take a look at this thread, I want them to see every good idea ppl can think of condensed as reasonably as possible.

 

I like the Phasing Idea, how about -as tradeoff- it is switchable but the DT gives up cloak as long as Phasing is active?

The haunt, even if balanced properly somehow would remove the recon/visibility (I don´t mean cloak) aspect. For the Observer I could imagine a mode where it becomes stationary and uncloaked but gains sight range, and maybe a presence notification (The red ring, just like the Radar).

Notifing it only as blur will only hurt players eyes trying to find them. There should be 3 "stages" Not knowing it´s there, noticing the blur and knowing it is there. I wonder if AoE attackers will get Target Ground, that would devalue Cloaking quite a lot...

 

just to clear up, what i was suggesting is any aoe spell or damage would kill the haunt, even things like d-matrix, emp or ensnare. an explanation could be that the influx of energy created by these spells affected the void and neutralized the haunt.

if that's still too much, we can always reduce the haunt's line of sight to be small, we can also increase it's build time and cost, there are many ways to balance this OP mechanic with less than impressive numbers.

 

I don't know Remy, this DT "phasing" ability seems a little bit too much like the idea talked about a long time ago about the DT having an increased speed and being invulnerable for a short period of time.

While I do think it would be cool to be able to move THROUGH a line of units to hit more valuable ones, its more "strategic" to foresee the problem and place your DTs accordingly.

I still think the Haunt may borrow a little too much from the Terran mechanic. But if they DO want to include this, it needs to be more similar to Remy's suggestion where the Observer sacrifices its cloak for an extended range. That sounds fine to me. But I still think the Observer needs a change.. this one or something else.

I don't know what to do with the Carrier, but as of now, it is going to be COMPLETELY overlapped by the Mothership. Something's gotta give .

Scatter is great. No qualms with that whatsoever. But is it a good replacement for the Black Hole ability?

I think maybe they should remove the cloaking and give it the scatter. Then give it Black Hole as well. Then your mothership can either suck units in or push them out. Great mechanic. owerup:

 

@ Unentschieden: Making DT phasing into a mode-switching mechanic with the trade off of decloaking would go against one of the very reasons that I thought such an ability would be useful/necessary in the first place.

You're playing on a map with many tight paths where you can easily block off with just a few untis. Enemy player sees your DT's blur and blocks off the path leading to his base. It doesn't hurt you directly, but it buys him time, and I think that's very cheesy. A DT that you can't even retaliate against when he swing his sword in your fact, should not be a unit where players can intentionally block off, it makes no sense and is a cheesy mechanic. And in that situation or under similar scenarios, I don't see why the DT should have to decloak and take hits just to get going.

Conversely under most other scenarios where the DT is already under detection, unit collision should still apply to the DT most of the time. The DT could of course use the phasing ability at an attempt at gaining a tactical advantage, but it shouldn't be something that happens many times in a fight where the DT just phases in and out all over the place. This is why I think it should be an active ability that can only be used sparingly.

For people who would like it to be something that you can use back to back on occasion, you could just go with the energy cast system. Energy cost of 100 out of a max of 200 would work I think, even if you don't have the full 200 as long as you're close, you can still bust a second phase pretty quickly after your first one. The thing is that whether you think the DT should eat feedbacks or not. EMP is less of a factor as the SciVes/nomad(eww) would already reveal the DT anyway. If you think the DT should not suffer from spells like feedback and EMP, then you can just go with the free activation with cooldown mechanic. I said the cooldown should be long, but I didn't mean something like a 30 minute CD. I think maybe a CD of around 1 minute(?) might be sufficient to keep its a highly strategic ability.

 

I was thinking about it as a anti surround ability. It reminded me of a WC3 Maps custom ability called "Sprint", the hero would shortly gain speed and loose collision. Taking hits while running past the enemys was the tradeoff.

Blocking Ramps is not "cheese" the bit of time is bought with a unit after all. My aproach would make DTs more usefull when detected though and that may not be so good. I like the idea but I have simply different ideas about use and dangers of this ability.

 

Blocking the ramp of your starting main is not cheese. Blocking a narrow path half way across the map just because you can see the blur IMHO is cheesy.

In addition, DT tech is now in a separate building from HT tech, as in, it's now a branching tech option from Hi-Temps. I feel that is adequate to let the DT have just a tad more flavor. But just overall, I think the phasing ability would be useful, strategic, and fit the DT nicely, all without it being OP so long as it can't be spammed.

 

First of all I completely agree with the poster Remy. Couldn't have said better myself. Randomly shooting AOE is not way a strategy. Most likely you will never notice or know where this Haunt is so you can't randomly shoot of your AOE. As to your comparison between this and the burrowing, it is not equivalent. Here's why. Recalling this correctly, burrowing is an ability that requires a Hive and research. This is the highest tech in the branch which is a significant drawback. Second there is a reason why burrowing is never use. The simple fact that by the time burrowing is available to you, detectors are readily available for all races pretty much nullifies this ability makes it impractical to use. The idea of the Haunt basically having no drawbacks and is undetectable even with detectors is in no way comparable to this.

Also I'm in in favor of having the MS or star relic as another detector. The observer is in everyway superior to these two units as detector. Why scrap something that is way better for the Protoss and put in one of these unit as detector, certainly not the MS. The observer was probably the best detector for a couple of reason one of which was that it why by far one of the cheapest protoss unit. All those you mentioned have one of the following flaws to make it not a good detector 1)too costly 2)too high up the tech tree (even if the observer is tier 2) 3)is way too expensive. These are just a few reasons why the observer was so good.

As to the Drift Void. I guess I don't mind eating away energy point which is essentially a very weak EMP. The problem also is that caster are usually behind the line of battle. So are you having this thing affect the whole screen? That's too much. The second is the ramming ability. An no ramming is an ultralish attack. DT and zealots have slashing type attacks but that's semantics. But in order to ram something you must be able to be fast enough to catch the target. Since it is a flyer, I suppose that it can only ram air target otherwise it will be ramming itself into the ground. Most target will not be standing still for you to ram them plus the fact that this type of mechanic is simply not a starcraft type of mechanic. Just like the Osprey idea, this type of attack requires your opponent to do zero micro which does not happen in a real game.

@remy
About the carrier. While I agree that it could be made more accessible, having it anti ground only would make it un-carrier-like. The carrier has always been an overall effective unit. While I'm not oppose to your idea per se, most people would not warm to this idea of ground only. I myslef prefer that they can attack both but get a little bonus in terms of shield and attack against ground if need be. It can be balance by less life/shield etc. I have no problem against that.

With regard to the MS, I truly believe that if the carrier turns back to a more Tempest state, then Blizzard would definitely leave the MS the way it is because the MS would serve as the new capital ship. I think that if we want the one unit back with all the powerful abilities then the carrier has to be the original type carrier that serves as a general capital ship because the warp ray will not cut it.

 

just a correction: burrow is a first tier tech (i.e. only require hatchery) not 3rd tier requiring hive.

 

Are you sure...last time I played I could have sworn that burrowing requires a Hive. But this was a few years ago so I could be mistaken but it does not defeat the fact that burrowing as not a useful ability

 

It doesn't require a hive.

 

Yes, it's first tier.

And that's exactly my point, it's not that useful of an ability. Well, let me rephrase that, it's not a game-changing ability. Different players would argue about it's usefulness. But, if we only heard about that mechanic - we'd prolly start imagining all kinds of worst-case scenarios.

But really, having a spotter that can't be seen? I think the unfamiliar idea is just making ppl a lil too nervous. Zerg already get a spotter for free. In fact, they start every game with a free detector. Is that unbalanced? While everyone else is hurrying to mine, the Zerg get to start exploring. However, to me, the idea that Terrans can hide just as good as Dark Templar... I don't like it. (And I know, I know, Protoss don't have a timer, Terrans do.... but given the length, it's not like the timer actually hinders the use of the cloaking.)

Maybe, here's another idea. In line with that exact thing, the Protoss have a slight advantage in their cloaking... so maybe the Dark Templar should only have a slight advantage over Light Protoss. Perhaps instead of impossible to detect, it should be, can only be detected if it falls in the range of two DIFFERENT detector units. ie: Nomad AND Sensor Tower.

At least in the first StarCraft, every race had two detectors, a mobile and a stationary... I think that trend would continue. So then the unit wouldn't be without counters... but it'd still represent improved Protoss ability to stealth.

On that same note, you ask why have multiple detection units? Well, every race has two detectors - one that's stationary, and one that's mobile. Well, with this setup, the Protoss would have three detectors... 1 that's mobile, and two cheaper, kinda sorta stationary ones. Don't forget that Phase Cannons can move around now too...

Nah, not the whole screen of course. A good sized area of effect though, not a speedy drain either, just a slow yet noticeable effect.

The point was... DT's and Zealots use warp blades. So would this ship. And yes, it would be a reasonably fast vessel which when moving in a straight line would accelerate to be a fast vessel. And yes, it would be anti-air only. If the Mothership was left with anti-ground attacks, then the two capital ships would complement each other.

And just like real life ocean-going ships, the target doesn't have to be standing still to get rammed. In fact, the target is usually frantically doing everything it can do to avoid getting rammed... and yet for a good part of history, ramming was the primary method for ships to do battle. It can work.

 

Burrow is tier 1 tech.

@ hominiddd, While you described the carrier as "an overall effective unit," I would actually lean more the overall ineffective unit. Carriers were too easy to take down. But consider this, does anyone actually get carriers for AA? Not really. Anyone even half-way decent who gets carriers would have other support units capable of AA. So AA isn't something you get carriers for, and it's not absolutely necessary. If carriers faced a dedicated AA air fleet, their AA wouldn't be what can save them anyway.

So my point is then, why have something that you can do without hinder you from being able to get more carriers faster? Protoss players are probably the ones who will oppose this idea, I already knew. But in fact, this idea is actually for the Protoss players. If Toss can tech carriers at an earlier timing in the game, they probably would be more useful and see more usage in general. How they are now, coming out that late in the game, everyone is more than prepared to spank the carrier for a gay old time.

@ NateSMZ, Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but I have to disagree with you yet again, on quite a few points too, sorry. The overlord is not the huge advantage that you make it seem to be. Sure it is nice to start out with one, and sure it has its benefits, but it certainly has enough drawbacks to justify them. The starting ovie is so damn slow that you can't really use it to scout out beyond maybe 2 starting locations. And very soon after, it become a liability and a weakness that your opponent can use against you. Smart players who obtain AA early(Terran for example), will remember your nice little visit early on and then seek it out to kill it off by deducing its possible location. No other race is vulnerable to supply rushes, only the Zerg, that is a huge weakness.

The burrow is also not anything like the Haunt, not even remotely. Have you actually seen the sight range of a burrowed zergling? You can have a big army go past it without ever knowing about it. Sure, you may suggest using it at enemy chokes or possible expo spots, but that's not something you can't accomplish with workers anyway. If you're actually scouting like you're supposed to in a game, you shouldn't be missing anything coming out of your opponent's base anyway, you should cover most expo sites anyway as well. The gas cost itself that early ensures that it won't be like Zerg scout out the land while people get busy harvesting as you say, which is exactly why most people just scout with lings and drones without the research in early-game. The 100 gas really isn't worth the minor bonus in convenience, when it means you taking it out from the lair fund.

I think the double detection to reveal cloak idea, you meant as a mechanic for the DT and not the Haunt, but in any case it still sounds like one of those technical weaknesses just to have for the record that requires the alignment of the planets. Since Zerg has very little option in terms of erecting buildings away from bases, basically it means the DT is nigh invincible in battles that takes place away from Zerg's home base. It is also the ultimate ground based defense against Zerg assaults. But even for P and T, it still sounds too strong.

I don't mean to sound like I have the definitive say on what balance is, but here's what I think. Balance is not a definitive thing, it is a relative thing. When a strategy in a game has a relatively high rate of success, yet it takes much less effort to execute than what is necessary counter it, it is imbalanced. The very word "balance" suggests equal on both sides. So just because some kind of weakness exist, doesn't mean it's balanced, because weakness is not a definitive thing that you check off on a list. If a strat is a lot more trouble for the folks on the receiving end to counter than for you to carry out, it's imba.

I apologize if my tone sounded like I was preaching or if I made you think that I just hate your ideas and have decided to pick on you, none of those were my intentions. I just gotta say what I think, I have to speak my mind, that's the way I am. Even despite the fact that I have disagreed with you a lot in this thread, you have still continued to put up good posts. Good posts aren't good posts because it only contains ideas that I can agree with, so good job, kudos.

 

The burrow is also not anything like the Haunt, not even remotely.

Wasn't trying to compare the two, was just saying abilities can sound better than they are.

I think the double detection to reveal cloak idea, you meant as a mechanic for the DT and not the Haunt

Nope, still harping away about my Haunt idea, lol - I think it's one of my favorites

I apologize if my tone sounded like I was preaching or if I made you think that I just hate your ideas and have decided to pick on you, none of those were my intentions. I just gotta say what I think, I have to speak my mind, that's the way I am.

No offense taken here, ha. You're far from being abrasive.

 

Believe it or not if you read my other posts, I am actually pro Tempest instead of Carriers because like you I would love to get to use the Carrier earlier than before. But my point is sure Carrier might not be good AA. Of course I'm going to have backup to my Carriers that is not the issue. But consider what you said. If the enemy has a fleet to try to take out my air and I might have Warp rays and Phoenixes of course having a Carrier with AA is still a BIG bonus. Even if it sucks it will help the fleet instead of just sitting there as a target. Can you imagine the original Carrier not being able to target air? Protoss will not have any sort of air tactics. Also I can't imagine a carrier type vessel that carries flying type well...flyers attacker not being able to attack air..seem way illogical even if this is a fantasy game. As the Tempest goes it was able to attack air but still have a ground harden shield so yeah I want both. The only thing was that the shield/life will be lowered which is logical since it will be a lower tech unit.

 

The whole idea is for your anti-ground only carriers to never meet a large dedicated AA air fleet. The kind of carrier that I'm suggesting is basically for Protoss to have air-to-ground siege capabilities at perhaps even earlier than guardian timing. But not only is it good vs ground, you can actually duke it out with ground AA without even utilizing any kind of attack range advantage. If you fully understand the impact this would have for the Protoss game, I don't see why you wouldn't want it.

What I'm saying is that the most crucial factor in this case, is improved accessibility and earlier availability. If you can scrap the AA that you really can do without just to get the carriers out a tad faster, then it's worth it. You might think having a bit of AA to help against air is good as every small bit adds up, so even if carrier tech is just a tad slower because of it, it would still be better overall in the long run. I don't think that's the case. While every little bit earlier for the anti-ground would be immensely more potent and valuable. Every bit later with the AA would only further diminish the value of it, as dedicate air would take it down anyway.

Overall, carrier is just not useful. Its AA is even worse, as it is neither need it nor does it make a real difference. I believe that it's in the best interest of Protoss players to make every tradeoff to get it out earlier. I fail to see why things would change this time around and the carrier would magically be useful all of a sudden at the top of the Protoss tech tree. And I personally don't really care too much about made up fantasy lore making sense. You can easily say that the interceptors are bombers or have special armament equipped specifically to take out ground targets. You can make up anything you need to justify better game design, everything else is made up anyway.

 

uhh...I don't think you read my post ..... I did say that I was pro tempest right? right! Tempest means....uh..yeah....more accessible .. check...because it is earlier in the tech tree due to lower shield and life. My only point was that yes it can have strong against ground but still retain some anti-air because the Tempest did have the harden shield. Now if you have said that it would be like an air tank for the Protoss then I would mind either, but personally I prefer the opposite of a goliath, strong against ground but still have some air abilities

And yes I do like my fantasy to at least make some sense.... I and some others do not have some of your "sense"

 

I will say this right now.

THE PROTOSS NEED THE PHEONIX!!!!

Our beloved Motherships were practically striped down rebuilt and taken parts away to make more of them and thats stupid so now we have ABSOLUTLY no AA attack 4 the MS the black hole and AA attacks are gone.

The Carriers are versatile but they are not very good at AA so that is their weakness (I think a very simply way to counter that would be to increase armour by 220 and sheild 150) and it can be manipulated easily also I think they should still have the tempest as well I think the only ship other than MS designed to have AG specifics.

The Warp Ray is very good for the protoss and I beleive in that strongly I think (if I remember correctly) that 2 can destroy a terran barracks in exactly 13 seconds, but they are not good against the littler guys that aren't as big as the Battleship.

The Pheonix is fine just they way it is and I think very protossy like. It is slick, smooth, shiny, and gets the job done and plus the PILOTS of the Pheonix's made the overload thing I meen what other race can figure out how to overload their massivly complicated warp feilds through their ion cannons. Yea like the Terrans got enough brains or know how to do such a thing its beyond their comprehension. plus the overload ability is with 2 cannons while it would take many many cannon and thus a very slow unit to pull off a feat like this.

The Pheonix is good at AA leave it at that, we need it.

 

edited the original post quite a bit... added Remy's 'Phase Ability' for Dark Templars suggestion, altered the Haunt concept some, destroyed the Osprey suggestion and made a small suggested alteration to the Phoenix, also added more info on the Mothership, with more to come

 

these numbers are similar to what i had in mind when i suggested that dark templar should get to use the phase ability more often. from reading your post, in which you said:

i got the impression the the cool down would be 5-10 minutes! i'm glad you've cleared that up :good: