Protoss Strategy Discussion

im a level 30 bronze player and im a big noob andi dont know any of your weird sc2 language so plese tell me

 

I have a question I asked b4 about a dark temp build, but didnt get any good feed back. im not sure if going with dark temps, with some high temps, for storm, and a lot of arcons with some immortals backing them up is good? if so what "counter" would this b good agnst or would it just b a good army?

 

90% of the time DT rushing is very very bad, especially agasint terran. Alltho in bronze im sure it would work most of the time, any game i play these days noone that stupid to not get a cannon/overseer, and CC's are mandatory anyways. tbh 1 dt can beat a noob player, but if you do want to try DT rushing be smart about it, dont just go dts if you get scouted its game over, build some zeals/stalkers make the enemy think ure a noob, then rush his mineral line with dts and destroy his econemy.

 

DT rushing can work in one situation. You force the Command Center to lift of, rendering the Terran without a means to detect you.

Even then it is a risky strategy. Hit-or-miss (mostly miss)..

As far as the Terran base goes, your best way in will be Collossus. With range these are comparable to Siege Tanks, and with a few Immortals in your army you should be able to bring most Terran buildings down quick enough that they won't stand in your way.

Immortals are your best fight vs Siege Tanks but they also move so slow + low range...

As long as you keep the Terran from expanding you should still win the game right? Unless I misunderstood you, controlling the map is winning. Terran has to leave sometime.

Otherwise Carriers! Siege Tanks can't mess with Carriers, and Turrets aren't too much trouble either. If you could get three or four of these before he realizes he needs Vikings, you might be able to finish the job...

I'm just throwing ideas out there, I'm more of a Zerg player lately

 

Mass Hydras

Could someone help me understand why mass hydras is so uncannily effective against Protoss and the best way to counter it?

Before you say "oh that's easy, just get zealots, stalkers, sentrys, colusus, and templar!" I'd ask that you don't say anything at all ...

My problem is that the Zerg can make so many units, so fast, and tech switch on a dime.
I think it's so absurd that I have to make at least three different untis to deal with just one.

Colusus is the quick answer to the question, in that they do indeed counter hydras well because of how much damage they do to them, but you have to HAVE support for them. That support would usually include stalkers and sentrys, so again, you have to have at least three different units to deal with it.

It seems unfair that they can force you into having to tech all the way to colusus just to deal with what they can get relatively faster and cheaper.

I mean, hell, colusus isn't even an option if I dont get the range upgrade ...

I'm trying not to whine here, sorry if it sounds that way, I'd really just like some help with the situation and some guidance as to why countering mass hydras is made so difficult for protoss.

 

But with that combination you do counter him. Then you push onto his base and win. It's like saying that Zerg can get a ton of zerglings easily, but I have to make more than one unit to counter them. Doesn't matter - you can deal with hydras with only stalkers, it's just not the most efficient way.

Think of it in terms of resources spent instead of how many different units you need. For a similar amount of resources you would counter his hydras with stalkers and colossi. He can keep spamming those hydras but you have your counter to them. So he has to react to your counter, build some new units, branch out into something new. Personally I like using DTs, if he doesnt have any detection - they tear through hydras easily.

 

I understand your point, and it's part of my problem with the situation.

I mean, cmon, what one unit can I mass as a protoss player to force the zerg player into making three specific units to deal with my mass?

I can't think of one ...

The relative ease with which someone can mass hydras and be very effective vs what it takes for me as a protoss player to counter that easily achieved mass is an imbalance in my opinion.

 

You should always make gateway units as protoss, and it's really easy, you can even warp them in anywhere on the battlefield.

Then if you make robo build you can go for immortals against roaches and collosi against any zerg ground forces. If he goes air warp in some more stalkers, that's pretty easy too.

 

Yup, it's really easy to warp in stalkers when you only have 3-4 to begin with and he shows up with 9 mutas...

 

So where are your observers?

 

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?
Yea, I can get observers at some point, when I'm not too busy pumping gateway units.
Stalkers and sentries take a lot of gas.

I guess anyone could say "well if you scouted ..."
That's a cop out.
I can scout zerg all I want, but then what?
They can tech switch on a dime and each of their hatcheries can produce 7 units at once, and within seconds you can have 14 of a specific unit down your throat?

So okay, I see him make a spire, and I think, "well, I better get some stalkers, cause I cant afford to make 3 stargates to get out enough phoenixes to counter his mutas right now"

Then what?
I push back his mutas, and then before I know it I got 30 zerglings surrounding and demolishing my stalkers ...

My point to all of this is that Terran and Zerg alike both have the ability to force the protoss player into a corner. They can make units that I have to counter with a specific tech, which in most cases requires more than one unit, and in many cases one or two of those units require an expensive, slowly built upgrade to be considdered effective against whatever is coming at me.

Terran have the ghost. They come out of the box with emp, an AoE spell, clearly devastating to a protoss army. They dont even have to aim well, just point and click in an area. One might try to say, "well, get templars and feedback" HA, I have to click a specific unit in the midst of an army for that to work, all the while he just clicks an area. Psi storm? I gotta research that first and cant even cast it quickly unless i get ANOTHER upgrade ...

Hellions rip through any light unit and cost no gass...
Marines are easily upgraded with stim packs and can kite zealots all day long.
Hell, the official Brady games strat guide's first words of the zealot are "When upgraded with charge ..."


Ultimately I think it's a bit rediculous what protoss have to do to gain any sort of advantage...

 

i can not use it very well

what a pity! it is very useful, thanks a lot.

 

anyone have trouble with bioball? as a protoss ive only won against terrans by being sneaky(dt harasses or void rays) and/or seriously outplaying them. if theres any terran crushers who want to share their secret, please post.
My biggest problem is marauders. I also have some difficulty with marines, but theyre manageable.

 

Randizzle, phoenixs are your friend. Get them regardless of what the zerg is doing if you are toss. One starport pumping them continuously until you have 6 or so gives you something to deal with mutas if he sends them, and if you are good enough 6 phoenixs can take out 20 mutas.

The game is balanced but not fair, such is life. Protoss cant mass 1 unit and force the zerg to have a mix, they can however have a mix that will deal with anything the zerg can throw at them as long as the numbers are not utterly overwhelming. Thats the difference, theres no point in complaining that your race can't do what another race can, thats why there are different races.

As toss you will be hard pressed to find a zerg force that will take 3 collosi backed up by assorted support units, and rode herd on by a flight of phoenix a carrier or 2, and a mothership. Obviously thats incredibly difficult to get too, but so is 75 hydras..... And 75 hydras vs 5 templars = very very very very sad face zerg.

the argument of ghost vs templars been done before. Ghosts cost more, and cant merge into archons. Whether or not they are balanced against each other is irrelevant they are different units, and the ghosts once again cost more. Sure emp seriously sucks when you get hit by it, but storm sucks far worse.

Hellions rip through light units, but by the same token zealots with charge (just like marines need to research stim) catch, and kill hellions with no problems. Not to mention stalkers with blink are FAR more mobile then hellions, and can easily shield zealots. Last but not least yes, charge is a required upgrade for any number of zealots. JUST like stim is required for marines and marauders.

Kingmea, Chargelots destroy marauders cost for cost.

 

Reldric

I agree with you man. Phoenix in Starcraft 2 is the unit to go! You can really cripple the map control of the zerg player if you use it right. In addition, you can take out a lot of mutalisks with proper kiting. Make sure you scout him properly.

Also, one thing about hellions is that they are super squishy man. They die so freaken fast to anything like a zergling surround. They are not very cost effective for how much life they have. Marauders with stim =)=)

 

Just watch the Replay,

See what kind of B-O they use. A lot of the time, i only get out pumped with units if my opponent sacrifices his expo for an "all-in" stalker/Zealot light weight 5-9 gate way rush.

Even then, if i have a few Carriers/colloss up i pretty much eat his zealots like cheesies. Its a risky move but if i scout home boy's base and i see him putting together a mass of light units... i will try to tech up asap to counter. This only works if he's using the "all in'' game.. if he harasses your eco early then its not so effective to try and tech up.. you'd have to try and match his rate of production, and if you cant then - you lose.


TBH im not even a toss player. But i have won matches vs lots and lots of light units teching up and C-boosting the production of heavier counter units. this helps if you have the time to expo and use your second nexus to c-boost 2 or three produce at a time.. Ctrl-# -ing your Nexus's/Starports & Robo Fac helps with this. m-m-m-m-MICROOOOO MANAGEMENTTTT FTW

 

Mid to late game a protoss army combination of chargelots, blinksters, sentrys and high temps is extremely deadly.
Psi storm owns whhen used with this mix, especially IF you use force fields well.

Especially to zerg armies of mostly hydras.. And to MMM balls. Mix in the occasional imortal vs seige tanks or roaches.

 

I use that army composition, but mostly in 4v4, for both storm and feedback. In 1v1 temps are more useful against T imo, apart from storming his mmm you can feedback medivacs (one shot), thors, bc's, ravens (one shot), ghosts, even if he doesn't go pure mmm you will be fine.

Against zerg, i do almost exclusively collosi. I need robo for obs and immo (against early roaches) and it's easier to transition to collosi. Plus, they have splash designed for hydra lines.

Also, I need some opinions on this:

When prostoss and terran balls collide (pun not intended), protoss has temps, pros almost always use storm exclusively (unless enemy has ghosts). Wouldn't it be better though to sacrifice 2 or 3 temps to feedback medivacs first, and then turn them to archons, and then storm them? Now terrans use stimpack without hesitation, because in a moment his ball would be fully healed, and that alone swings the battle in their favour.

Also, does stimpack do 10 damage to marauders out of 125 health? Shouldn't it do sth. like 10% (or even 20%)?

 

Yeah I never really have a problem with i PvZ or PvP, I just 4 gate them and then transition into whatever counters the enemy. What's really difficult though is PvT. The Terrans can just sit there and build 3 barracks pumping marines and marauders while toss has to worry about enough immo's/colossi/gateway units. Then when they attack, terrans just stim up and attack-move, while we have to micro our entire army (forcefields, immo micro, colossi positioning). And chances are slim the protoss army won't get demolished.

I am going to sit in a corner and cry now

 

As P vs T if you can deflect the initial and common maruder rush, you have a VERY good chance of winning.

Especially once you get observers out.

Many times with observes you can catch the T army out of position by attacking while they move.