Protoss Shield Omnidiscussion.

Prodigal welcome to the forum its always good to see new faces. I would suggest your farmialize yourself with the forum rules found here: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=107.0
Considering you have already broke one (Look at rule #10). This isnt a scold or anything like that and the mods are generally pretty lenient on newer members but that lenience can die fast if some rules are broekn repeatedly.

 

That is completely uncalled for. It's insulting. If you find that you don't understand one of my posts then ask me to clarify it.
Now, back to the topic. You said that the Immortal should be able to shrug of any attack, no matter how powerful it is. Therefore the Immortal should also be able to survive one of those huge, planet-purging attacks from the Protoss, which would be just plain stupid. I am saying that there would be a point where the Hardened Shields would fail, meaning that the Immortal would be killed against attacks like this and the Nuke, etc.

Bringing up psionic attacks is pretty much pointless. I know that they are impossible and that we cannot apply physics to them, but that is because they have no link with the Terran. The only team that we can really relate physics to is Terran. The Terran use Nuclear Weapons, and when Nuclear Weapons are used, they sent out an EMP. We have already seen that EMP's render the Protoss shields useless, so therefore the Nuclear Missile should wipe out the Protoss Shields.

For one, I think that statement is wrong, because the Devourer, Corsair and Valkyrie were all introduced to counter all air units, Lurkers were introduced to counter swarms of units, etc. Secondly, every single unit in StarCraft2 is designed to counter other units and is designed to be countered by other units. Therefore, because Terran are out-teched by Protoss, the Nuke could be designed to exploit their weakness, their weakness being that EMP can instantly rid them of shields.

This isn't really a good example. If the guy with centuries old technology had a way of instantly removing the higher teched person's Kevlar vest, then he would use it whenever possible because they would make it much more evenly matched. Rephrasing this into the StarCraft universe, if Terran could instantly remove Protoss shields with EMP, then they would do so whenever possible because it would make the fight much more evenly balanced. The Terran do, and always will, have a chance against Protoss. All they do is need to exploit the Protoss' weaknesses.

Just because it isn't final it doesn't mean that it will be changed. There is a good chance that it will not be changed, and there isn't a need to change it.

The Nuke wouldn't be used as an EMP. The EMP would be a way to make the Nuke more effective. You're basically saying 'The Terran already have a unit that can deal damage, so why do they need another?' They need other units to make there force stronger, just like how adding an EMP to the Nuke would make it stronger.

It is near impossible to spam Nukes, because of the production time, the expense, and the difficulty to set up. It is far from being an insta-win attack. Once a Nuke is launched, it takes a while before it falls. In this time the opposing player can find and kill the Ghost, thus stopping the attack and wasting a lot of the attacker's time and minerals. The Nuke would cause Irradiate, except for the fact that all of the effected units are already dead!

 

I'm sorry if you felt it was an insult - I was just being honest, you know quite well that I compliment posts I think are well thought out because I've given you a couple power-ups recently....

ok, you don't think there's a difference between an exploding planet and a tactical nuke?

and we don't know that the natural electromagnetic pulse sent by a nuclear explosion is the same magnitude as the weapon which does specifically that... and I still haven't seen any proof that the Nuke negated normal shielding in the first game.... and the whole point of the psionics discussion was your repeated claims that it's impossible for the Protoss to design an unbreakable shield

So you think assault rifle vs. musket is an even match? Come on now, don't tell me you can't understand why I might think your posts in this topic are getting a little out there...

The nuke needs to be stronger? How do you come to that conclusion? It was the most damaging attack possible in the game - how could you possibly claim it needs to be more powerful? And since you're trying to be as realistic as possible, Irradiate-Nuke wouldn't only affect units - rather it would affect the very ground with fallout and any biological unit walking across that terrain would be affected with the Irradiate effect.

 

If the Hardened Shields is unbreakable, then it should be able to survive the huge Planet-purging attack, which would be really lame.
I said that if the Musketeer was able to remove the Rifleman's bulletproof vest, it would become more evenly matched. Obviously it wouldn't be perfectly even fight, but the Musketeer has a much greater chance. it would basically end up with whoever got the first hit, which would still be in the Rifleman's favor, but it doesn't mean that the Musketeer has no chance.
The Nuke would only be more effective against the Protoss. As you said, the Protoss easily out-tech the Terran, so it is logical that the Terran would adapt so that their Nukes are even more destructive against Protoss.

 

From straight out mechanics perspective the Immortal would indeed only take 10 Damage. But that would invalidate the nuke a bit. Nukes are probably the riskiest investment possible in SC, anything else is either a technology or a unit.
It has the workst Cost/Risk ratio wich justifies it´s damage potentional. Unless that ratio improves a lot (less cost, less "airtime"...) the nuke needs to be devastating to be viable at all. In SC it was hardly viable in a serious match.

 

Well, if the Protoss can design the planet-purge assault in the first place, I don't see why they couldn't design something to resist it too. I mean, every weapons tech we as humans come up with, we also come up with ways to neutralize it. Modern-day humans already have bunkers designed to survive nuclear attack... so there's no reason to act as if it's impossible to resist.

And come on Itza, don't be stubborn... do a wikipedia on assault rifles and muskets... a soldier from 500 years ago would not have a chance in Zerg of killing a modern soldier. I'll give you some links...

Arquebus Information - Notice how the arquebus is compared against ARCHERY, lol. And in some aspects, comes up wanting. Bows and arrows were legitimate alternative weapons to early muskets. Their effective range was around 50 yards, and they got between 2-3 shots per minute. Assault Rifle Information Compare this to an assault rifles effective range of 500 yards, and 700-750 rounds per minute...

It should be rather obvious who would get the first hit. It may be logical for the Terrans to begin using ERW's, but it would also be logical for the Protoss to address the single weakness in their defensive technology. They are after all beginning to admit the need to adapt. All that needs to be decided is what makes for the most entertaining game, and the explanation can come later... because really, ANYTHING can have a lore explanation created for it.

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@ Unentschieden - that's a good point, and part of why I support moving the Nuke to a sturdier unit.

Immortals not having heavy weaknesses is a good game-play dynamic. It makes balanced forces much more necessary. Which is a good thing - less likely to see armies of only "higher" tier units.

 

I'm not saying that the Musketeer and the Rifleman would be evenly matched, but they would be much more evenly matched than if the Rifleman had a Kevlar vest on, just like how Terran would be much more evenly matched against the Protoss if they were able to produce a more effective Nuke.

 

The nuke has been moved to a stronger unit - the new Ghost has more than double HP (45 -> 100) and impressive range (8upg -> 10). If that is enough is a beta question...

 

OK the plan was for me to give this to Jon to give to Blizzard. Lets not focus on just one aspect of shielding.

Next topic:

Should shields all have a base level of 0 or should some units have higher shield levels just like how some units have higher armor levels

 

I really don't care one way or the other. When it comes time to balance the game either they will make some units have higher level shields or they will make those units have more shield points. Having higher level shields would make the units better against weaker units but if the trade off is between more shields and higher level shields, going with the higher level over the increase in points will make the units more vulnerable to larger units as a smaller percentage of their damage is effected.

If you desire to have a certain unit be specialized against ligher units then giving it an increased level of shield would be one way to give them that advantage. Maybe you want to emphasize the collosus's advantage over small units so you give it an extra level of shielding. To keep it balanced the units final number of shield points will be adjusted accordingly.

Giving reasons trying to rationalize how shields work is truely pointless as this is only a game and is fantasy. Protoss shields can function however Blizzard wants them to function so I think the focus of our discussion should be on how the changes effect game play.

 

Yes we are talking gameplay here not real world physics.

 

I vote against that, I don´t want Shields to be the "other HP". I´d rather have the shield upgrade increase the nominal value of the shields - just to keep it unique.

 

Making shields the Protss HP would make it more uniqe. Aerg and Terran would have armor while Protoss get shields

 

I don't mind if they all had the same base level of 0, but I'd prefer it if all the Protoss' shields had the same base level. Whether it is 0 through to 10, I don't mind, as long as it's balanced, but I would prefer it if they were all the same. The only thing that should give a Protoss unit a 'stronger' shield should be the amount of shields points they have. For example, a Mothership would have more shield points than a Probe, but both the shields would have the same base level of defense.

 

I really don't see any downside to base and upgradeable armor for the Protoss shields. It will only emphasize the use of EMP by the Terran.

 

It doesn't matter what the base armor of Protoss shields are, but they should remain constant throughout all their units.

 

yeah i agree with Itza the shields should remain constant

 

Anyone have reasons?


My reasons for wanting it to be flexible is that it is a third or more of the unit health so there should be something to prevent excessive drain on it and it would add some uniqueness to Protoss if they reinforce their shields instead of armor and would also provide a greater point of vulnerability in the event of an EMP.


Just think about it if the Protoss use thicker armor on their capital ships would it not also make sense to use more resilient shields? Also the Carrier has more armor than the battlecruiser yet looks less bulky which is kind of funny.


I also want to add a rebuttal to the "just add more shields to make them stronger" Well theres the thing that is the equivalent of raising HP instead of adding more armor

 

I thought the shields in SC1 were fine. Can't we just leave well enough alone?

 

Well the whole poiint is for SC2 to be innovative and do things SC1 didn't do.