Protoss Shield Omnidiscussion.

they have enough time in my mind

I could walk underneath a nuke unscathed

 

And I'll point out again that the Hardened Shield is supposed to be an improvement over normal shielding. Not just different, but better. What is the lore reason given for its development? They want to protect their Dragoons as best as possible, because for the time being, they can't make more. Therefore, it makes no sense to suggest that this enhanced protection the Protoss come up with has weaknesses other than what the Protoss specifically designed it with.

If you had a signed Babe Ruth rookie card, would you protect it with half a piece of plastic? Of course not - you'd protect it the absolutely best possible way you could. Not, hmm... I'll protect it from blunt trauma, but fire and/or theft? nah... I like life to be spicey, I won't bother guarding it from those problems.

Exactly! What I've been saying all along. If there's anything that can insta-kill an "Immortal" with direct damage, it needs a new name. It makes the Protoss look pathetic and foolish. "DUN DUN DUN, here is our IMMORTAL!!!!" [Terran shoots - Immortal melts] "uhhh.... well, there WAS our immortal... suppose we should build more of them next time, ehh?"

Heat must be transferred across intervening matter. If the shield can prevent all manner of energies and projectiles (for instance psionics AND bullets, etc) from getting to the Protoss's physical body... then it would prevent unwanted heat from reaching the Protoss as well. Reference space shuttles. Heat needs matter to be transferred, that's why astronauts don't insta-freeze in the absolute coldness of space. So no, unwanted heat, can be and is deflected by the Protoss shields - which is again why Firebats didn't bypass Protoss shields.

They aren't supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with the Protoss. Who cares what the pinnacle of Terran tech is? Individual Protoss lifespans are greater than 20 generations of humans. Protoss are demi-gods. The fact that Terrans can damage Protoss at all is amazing, and Terrans rely on a combination of dumb luck, individual pluck, and essentially animal cunning to accomplish it. There is no reason why the Terrans should be able to out-power the Protoss at anything, unless the Protoss have overlooked that possibility thru their own arrogance and pride.

The Terran basics for offense and defense should remain what they are now: adaptability (ie: Vikings, Reapers, Battlecruiser upgrades, lift-off, building add-on interchangeability, etc), more tactical options from more units (ie:Ghost, Medics, Nomads, Supply Depots, etc), and morals of convenience in the campaign (ie: Psi Emitters, shifting alliances, backstabbing, sacrificing own units to achieve objectives, etc). The Terrans may over-power the Zerg, but there is no reason for them to out-tech the Protoss... it goes against the basic differences between the factions at the core of the game.

It's unrealistic for super-advanced alien demi-gods, who live thousands of years each, can bend time, space and light with their minds, can merge multiple sentient beings into single entities, and were created under the assumption that they possessed a 'Purity of Form'... it's unrealistic to suppose that they can survive a thousand year old weapon from Terran history?

The unrealistic thing is that the thousand year old weapon can hurt them at all. The only reason it can, is because the game wouldn't be much fun if it was "realistic". It's science fiction - realism is important. But gameplay trumps realism every time. And from a gameplay standpoint, the Immortal should provide a new and interesting dynamic. Big things are wasted on it, little things are extra effective. It's a good idea, and it should be expressed fully.

If 15 Siege Tanks firing only do 150 damage to Immortals, then an Artillery Barrage shouldn't be an insta-kill. 15 Siege Tanks IS an Artillery Barrage, lol.

 

I don't see why you think that the Hardened Shields are the same piece of technology as the normal energy shields. Hardened shields reduce damage, energy shields absorb it. As far as I am concerned the Hardened Shield is a new piece of technology, because it functions in a completely different way to the normal shields. Whatever it is, it really doesn't decipher whether it will survive a Nuke or not.

It was designed to resist mid to large strength attacks, which is what it does. However there has to be a point where the shields will fail. It is impossible to create something that can resist an infinite amount of force. I am not saying that the Nuclear Strike has an infinite force, but I believe that the strength of its force would be enough to make the Hardened Shields fail. Not that it actually has to do so, because as Heavyarms2050 said, the EMP released by the Nuclear Strike would rid the Immortals of shields, so the Nuke would still do the full extent of its damage.

Well if the Protoss are trying to protect their Immortals against everything, like you would do with your Babe Ruth card (whoever he is, I've heard the name but have no clue of what he does), then why do they still take 10 from all attacks? Why aren't they able to block small attacks as well? Everyone keeps on saying that 'because they are called Immortals they should be able to survive a Nuke', but by that logic, they shouldn't be able to be damaged by anything. Immortal is just a name. It doesn't mean that it is immortal.

What about the huge weapon the Protoss have in the cinematics that LordKerwyn was talking about? If that destroyed a planet that had Immortals on them, there is no chance that they could survive. And look at it from the Terran's point of view. If they drop their absolutely perfected and unchallengeable weapon of war on a Protoss base and then an Immortal just strides casually through the aftermath, unscathed, who's going to look pathetic or foolish? The Terran have developed their Nuke to destroy anything and everything in the designated area. They have a way of destroying the Immortal with a Nuke, because of the EMP that is released.

I laughed at this! Heat doesn't always need matter to be transferred. Convention and conduction does, but radiation, which we all hopefully know is released in a Nuclear explosion, be transferred through a vacuum. Even if the Immortal's shields was able to stop all incoming matter, the radiation would still be able to get through. It was said that the Hardened Shields use surface tension to stop incoming attacks. This would have no effect on radiation. Radiation would go right through it.

That's all I need to hear. The Terran have adapted to be able to counter a previously impenetrable Hardened Shield.

Believe it or not, the Terran Nuclear Missile is not a thousand year old piece of weaponry. Just because the very first, original design for a Nuclear Missile was made 555 years before StarCraft2, it doesn't mean that they are using a 555 year old weapon. Guns were first made in the 1200's. That doesn't mean that the Marines are equipped with weapons that are 1,300 years old.

 

The protoss never had and probably never will understand nukes. Due to Xelnaga intervention they jumped from tribal to high culture and from carnivores (meat eaters) to photovores (light eaters). They basically jumped the era the Terrans are now in - conviniently creating a nice contrast for Race diversity.

Not only from game balance it is Terrans != Protoss rather than Terran < Protoss. Notice how Protoss seem to strugle to defend against EMP attacks - a relativly primitive idea. The Terrans reverse engeniered version (Defense Matrix) doesn´t suffer that problem.

The Protoss don´t really advance, all the "new" units are actually reactivated or modified existing units - expect the Colossus they all were civilian in nature at first. They got all their technology spoon feed by the Xel´naga, I´m not even shure they can recreate the Crystals that are the base for all their Technology.

For the Game is is considered that only tactical methods are used, no Strategical nukes, no Psi emmiters, no Planet Burning etc....
We got C&C for stuff like that...


Ultimately the nuke attacks on a way the Shield is fundamentaly weak against - hardening shouldn´t apply to it.

 

Wow. Unentschieden , you just produced a sort of Starcraft revelation from me owerup:.

The Terran are the only of the three race to evolve on their own to their current position. Or are they? Maybe the Terran have more of a role with the Xel'Naga than we think. It's entirely possible, although unlikely.

Who is to say that the Xel'Naga aren't in some way connected to the Terrans? But this is a discussion for Races and Stories .

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As for the Nuke vs. Immortal debate, to me it makes a lot of sense that the Immortal would survive the Nuke. It's specifically designed to resist these new hard-hitting weapons that have been experienced against the Terrans.

Seriously, what else would have prompted the development of the Immortal? Obviously it wasn't for use against fellow Protoss because they'd been battling for thousands of years without the improvement. And it certainly wasn't designed to fight the Zerg as most of their units deal smaller amounts of damage anyway. Not gonna help them there.

So it makes perfect sense that this unit is entirely impossible to kill with any higher-level unit and forces the enemy to reverse their path and go for the weakest, most useless units in the game. It's the perfect strategic weapon.

Of course, this ability has to be countered by abilities still, but that doesn't mean the thing shouldn't survive a Nuclear blast. I think it's perfectly fine for the Immortals to survive. I mean, buildings do! The difficulty lies in determining the balance between survivability and "immortality" and gameplay. You can't have an Immortal surviving repeated Nukes because its only doing 10 damage, but neither can you have it die in the first blast.

What I would suggest, seeing this discussion about the Nuke, is that after a certain amount of damage in a single attack, be it Yamato or Nuke, the shield would fail. Just fail. This would make both the Nuke and the Yamato worthwhile to use on an Immortal while preserving the Immortal's ability as well.

It would survive a nuke, and it would survive an Yamato blast, but after that any unit would be able to pick it apart with ease.

So, to explain that, I'll give an example.

Say an Immortal has full health and holds still for a Nuke. The Nuke would knock out the shield, no matter whether it was full health, etc. and would deal additional damage based on that. You would have to determine the limit, maybe 200 damage. It would reduce all attacks to 10, but anything over 200 would make the shield completely fail. From then on it would be exposed. So technically the Nuke did 10 damage, but it also killed the Immortal's shield.

From the point of that attack onward, there would be a long waiting period before the Immortal's shield started regenerating as the shield was effectively "broken." It would be sort of like the Phoenix's overload.

I believe I have rambled, but I hope the idea got out there.

 

Ok lets start off with what we know. We know the nuke didnt have an EMP effect in SC1 because it would be way to powerful against the Protoss and it would upset the balance. From that we can assume it wont have an EMP effect in SC2. You could write it off a nmber of lore ways I really dont care which one. My favorite would be the kind of pulse created by a nuke isnt to sufficient to effect the energy reserves of the advanced Protoss and Zerg and has been since focuesed more on its heat creating properties.

Right there is another made up lore reason which when combined with the fact that nukes dont have a sufficient EMP to affect Protoss shielding means the Immortal could protect itself from a nuke.

Also the Protoss incinerated multiple planets in a short time fram in SC1 so it obviously isnt a last resort weapon and can be used whenever called upon.

So is everyone ready yet to stop using lore to prove a point? Lore can be manipulated by anyone unless its official lore from blizzard.

My thinking is simple Immortals are suppose to be weak against the weakest units in the game and they are. They are also suppose to be strong against the strongest attacks in the game so why not make them immune to the strongest? (There really is no good reason besides balance and it wouldnt be that unbalanced. Nukes are more of an anti building or anti army weapon there would be little reason to try and use them against Immortals on their own anyways.)

 

erm, why would the protoss design a unit against the terrans, they suffered minimal losses from them

 

You know what would be cool, when the shield is being degraded by enemies attacks, little shard looking glass should starts breaking off. And when the shield is finally destroy, depending on what attack, the shield will collapse like how glass breaks. If it was destroy by an projectile, it would how a "blown away" animation. If it was melee attack, it'll just collapse to the ground

 

@ Itza - I haven't said the Hardened Shield is the same, I've said it's supposed to be better. You ask why then is it weak against small attacks - because that is in harmony with typical Protoss actions. They discount smaller concerns as being beneath their notice, until those concerns prove to be their downfall.

Secondly, stop talking about what it's "impossible" for super advanced aliens to do. If they can combine multiple entities into one person, use PSIONIC powers period, etc, etc, etc... then it's pointless to start claiming they can't accomplish something in a SCIENCE FICTION universe, just because modern day humans can't do whatever it is.

Thirdly, the Terrans can't adapt to something they haven't seen yet. The Hardened Shield is a new development.

And the nuclear missiles are obviously not centuries old - but the basic technology is.

@ Unentschieden - The Protoss very obviously can advance due to the new combined Dark+Light units, the Hardened Shield in fact, the new Phase Cannons, etc, etc, etc... they can come up with new technologies. Their struggle with relatively simple techs isn't due to a lack of understanding, it's due to their own arrogance and prideful nature. They're so certain that they are the ultimate species that they sometimes ignore reality until they're kicked off their planet or something.

 

All the really new stuff seemed to come from the merging of the 2 Protoss "races". The dark Templar are fundamently different from the light ones, provoking conflicts we already saw/have been hinted at in Broodwar.

The points you used are certainly right, but the Protoss were stagnating until all Zerg broke loose.

 

@ Nate. You didn't answer one of my questions. What would happen if that huge weapon the Protoss have in the cinematics that LordKerwyn was talking about destroyed a planet that had Immortals on them?

It is impossible to create something with an infinite amount of force or mass. No matter how advances the Protoss are, and will become, it is just plain ignorant to say that they can create an infinite or unlimited force or mass. The Protoss are able to do a heck of a lot of amazing things that the Terran can hardly comprehend, but the Protoss haven't done anything close to the same magnitude as making an infinite force or mass.

There has been a fair period of time between the end of BroodWar and the start of StarCraft2. I don't know where you get your facts from, who says that the Terran couldn't have seen an Immortal in this time? Besides, if they try to adapt to fighting against the Protoss more, then one logical thing to do would be to add a more powerful EMP to the Nuke, so that they can bring down Protoss buildings quicker. This would unintentionally make their Nukes able to destroy an Immortal in a single hit.

Same with the gun. What's your point?

This made me think that you guys don't really understand the concept of infinite. You can't have a "nearly infinite" amount of photons or energy or whatever. If you have a specified value, say 100, 000, then it is no closer to being infinite than a value of 1 is. A value is either finite, or infinite. There isn't such thing as nearly infinite.

 

I do understand what infinity is and I also know that photons have no mass thats why the only way you are going to build something with them is if you have a number of them approaching infinity. Also the Protoss can wield infinities because that us the only way you are going to directly be able to undertsand/use black holes as well as messing with time. So while the Protoss may not have things with infinte damge or shielding (yet because that really is what this debate is all about) they can mess with some things that do involve infities.

Also the SC2 will not have an EMP attached because it would become way to powerful against the Protoss. I know I said that in an earlier post.

 

Well StarCraft2 will not have Immortals survive Nuclear Strikes. It has already been shown in the video I posted.
If you are telling everyone to stop mentioning the Nuclear Missile's EMP because it won't be implemented into StarCraft2, then stop talking about the Hardened Shields surviving Nukes. Blizzard would have actually had to have intentionally programed the Immortal to die when struck by a Nuke, because otherwise the Hardened Shields would have been triggered, and the Immortals would have survived.

 

Besides the Hardened Shield reduces damages, it doesn't totally prevent the damage

 

@Pyrodaimon I am glad to hear your opinion but unless you are going to say something more than a 1 line post its best not to post anything unless that 1 line post is adding alot to the disscussion. And currently the hardened shield stops every point of damage from a units attack beyond 10. Its not reduced by a percentage.

@ItzaHexGor how the hell could you know that? That is one of the most preliminary videos for SC2 and alot has changed since. I atleast have a precendence on which to base my assumption that the nuke wont have an EMP effect, and that is the fact that it didnt have one in SC1. Also a nuke with an EMP would completely change the balance of the ability. Immortals having the ability to survive a nuke will not severely change the balance of the unit. For the reason that no one is going to drop a nuke just to kill Immortals if anything they would drop, drop pods.

The nuke most likely isnt going to change. Whether or not Immortals can withstand a nuke wont effect the balance very much (assuming Immortals are balanced as is), so really all this is coming down is personal preference. I think if a Immortal could withstand a nuke it would truly live up to its namesake and theme. And since it most likely wont have any effect on the balance of the Immortal or the nuke I cant see a good reason for Immortals not to be able to withstand a nuke. 

This is going to be my last post on this topic unless someone can give a good reason why an Immortal with the ability to survive a nuke would upset the balance of SC2.

 

The reason that the Nuke will not have an EMP is because it didn't have one in StarCraft1? Maybe the Protoss should have an Immortal, because they didn't have an Immortal in StarCraft1. This is how the Nuclear Strike worked in StarCraft1. It took off 66% of the effected unit/building's health, but did a minimum damage of 500. This mean that if it did have an EMP effect to bypass Protoss shields, then it would do the following:
Zealots, with 100 health and 60 shields, would be killed instantly, because they would take 500 damage to their 100 health. With the StarCraft1 Nuke, they would also be killed instantly because they would take 500 damage to 160 combined health/shields.
Immortal, with 240 health and 100 shields, would also be killed instantly, because it would take 500 damage to its 240 health. In StarCraft1, because the Nuke didn't have an EMP the Immortal would have only taken 10 damage.
The Nexus, with 750 health and 750 shields would still survive because it would take 500 damage (both the minimum and 66%) to its 750 health. In StarCraft1 it would have taken 1000 damage, because 66% of its combined health/shields is 1000. So in StarCraft2, it would take 250 more damage.
Pylons, with 300 health and 300 shields would be destroyed instantly, where in StarCraft1, it would have survived on 100 health. This isn't that much of a loss now that Protoss can use Phase Prisms to replace Pylons, and it wouldn't be much of a blow to the Protoss food supply, because Pylons are never clumped together, because they need to be spread to power the base.
With a bit of tweaking of the ratio of health to shields, it would be a cinch to balance the new Nuke with the EMP, and it gives a logical and legitimate reason why Immortals would not survive.

 

lol, I like that... "until all Zerg broke loose"

*starts using "Zerg" as favorite expletive* =P

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and Itza I don't know anymore, I almost think you're just trying to boost your post count.... you're not making much sense

yes, you're right - the Immortal shouldn't survive the collapse of the space-time continuum, etc, etc.... that really however has nothing to do with the point that if this unit is vulnerable to several heavy attacks usable in normal multiplayer games, then the entire point of the unit is lost. It doesn't matter what happened in the gameplay video - the game is constantly changing - Reavers were in some earlier artwork and/or videos - but they're not in the game - the only thing that matters for this discussion is the unit concept and balance

and I'm not sure how you're not getting the point that it's impossible to use psionics too. I mean, are you saying you believe in psionic powers? It doesn't matter what is impossible according to our understanding of physics. That's the whole point of science fiction.

And no, the factions cannot be exposed to new game units and/or tactics until the game is played. That's the point of having new units. If you can't understand why that is, just look at Brood War and be satisfied at least that it is so. New units were introduced in Brood War, those units were designed to shore up weaknesses that had been exposed, and capitalize on enemy weaknesses that had been noticed.... there were no new units designed to counter other new units

My point regarding the gun and the nuke is.... when the protoss can manipulate space, time, light and psionics... it is rather amazing that ppl throwing pieces of metal really fast can hurt them at all... lemme make it clear... you do admit that the Protoss are at a higher tech level than humanity yes? I hope so, that's one of the basic premises for the game... well, what would happen if you with an assault rifle and kevlar were attacked by someone using centuries old technology? (ie: a musket) Do you think the musket wielding man would have a single chance in Zerg of harming you with your assault rifle and kevlar? How about a big no. It's the same as Terrans with their guns and nukes trying to duke it out with Protoss psionics, crystal latices and warp gates.

As I said, the only reason Terrans can hurt Protoss at all is because the game wouldn't be fun otherwise... and this is explained lore-wise as mainly being due to the Protoss's arrogance and pride which causes them to refuse to change even when simple changes would completely remove problems.

The main point seems to be however that you don't really grasp the idea behind the gameplay videos. If you must, go ask Karune on the official boards and have him tell you that NOTHING IN THE GAME IS FINAL.

And what is the point behind adding an EMP effect to the nuke? The Terrans already have an EMP attack, why do they need another one? That would actually be redundant and unbalanced. If you want to take out Immortals with your nuke, just hit them with an EMP first. That requires timing and tactics. A one shot kill everything isn't useful in Starcraft. Starcraft is about using tactics and strategy... not just spamming the insta-win unit. According to that logic, nukes should have the Irradiate effect too. That way they can be gg against all three factions.

 

Well I don´t agree that Terrans can only compete with the Protoss for gameplay reasons, but ultimately that point is moot.

The main reason that Immortals should die from nukes is that they deserve to die if the Terran manages to drop a nuke on them. There was only one unit in SC that could survive a nuke hit - with 1 HP. Lore and balance aside, if a nuke was simply shrugged of I´d be very disappointed by it.

Immortals are used against big hitting units, mainly to weaken the ground supermacy of the Siege Tanks. Nuke doesn´t work like that at all. It is more of a "where is Ghosty" minigame that get´s more effective the more ground the victim controls.

 

What was the unit that could survive a direct hit? Battlecruiser?

Anyway, I don't see the purpose of adding the EMP quality to the nuke either. In fact, it makes it stupid. It would make all Protoss buildings especially vulnerable to the Nuke where the other races wouldn't be nearly as vulnerable. It should do standard damage across any race.

Also, I think it would be useful to allow the Immortal to survive the Nuke. Let's face it, the Immortal isn't all that useful. It's not the be-all-end-all of ground units, especially since it can't currently hit air units (that's never been definitively answered for me). So surviving a Nuke would actually give it some extra usefulness. You can send it in when a Nuke is about to be dropped and continue the attack even when your Terran opponent is dropping a Nuclear Weapon without any fear. Pretty amazing.

It just shows that the Protoss have further adapted to Terran technology.

Also, it fits with the abilities of the unit that it could survive, taking even the heaviest punch the Terran can throw at it and still surviving intact. I just think the shield should be unusable after such a big hit for a short period of time. It would then be exposed.

 

I think the shields should only take base damage, but it will be the full amount regardless of unit size (like SC original). Probably the shield batteries will be replaced by structures that can recharge shields...such as the pylons. Perhaps the ability to transfer building shields to units might be possible?


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