Protoss balance problem?

Yeah they could return, but well, it would be a step back, deffinitely. And they'd have to modify the mothership to not overlap with them, and in combination with warpgates and warpprisms sending troops all over the map, having recall on a basic unit would seem a little too imba, now I think of it.
I don't believe they will bring them back for those 2 reasons: They won't fill a niche in the protoss arsenal. But oh well, they were my favourite unit back in SC:BW(I can say I'm really proud of my recall-drops! I'd load a few shuttles with units(reavers,DTs,zealots) and move in a corsair/arbiter squadron in the enemy base, disrupt the ground defenses with corsairs, recall, stasis on incoming armies, wipe out all workers/command centers and whatever else I'd manage to, and then had an observer to recall them back to safety.
I'm no longer that fast having become quite rusty in such kinds of games(I had more than 230 average apm back in broodwar and now I'm sitting at ~60-70) but doing tricky stuff like that did feel good, lol

 

I think a lot of Protoss players have difficulties with Early game, but then Protoss in most cases can have the economic adv very quickly.

 

lol. I typed a reply disagreeing with protoss getting a better econ, then changed my mind while thinking and retyped a reply supporting why chronoboost is better than mule in the late game, but then I forgot a factor and changed my mind again. I'll make a comparison and maybe draw a conclusion in the end as it's getting annoying typing and deleting lol

Chronoboost: If kept on the nexus you gain 1 free worker every ~3 full casts. At the cost of 50 extra minerals. The worker counts towards saturation, meaning that if you are saturated then there's no gain. It can be used on other buildings but this is talking econ advantage not tech or army advantage, so not relevant.

Mule: Free 6 workers with good uptime that cost no minerals but they don't count towards saturation(meaning they still increase your income by ~180 per minute even when fully saturated). With an x% uptime if used on cooldown you effectively have x%*6 free workers constantly up disregarding saturation.

Inject Larvae+Larvae: Debatable: Has the highest potential for worker count and zerg is an expo-heavy race, but it's the one most heavily affected by enemy players. If the enemy is aggressive you spend that larvae on fighting units and not workers. They still cost minerals as normal and count towards saturation(just to mention in comparison to the others)

So, to sum up:

In general protoss has the most reliable worker increasing trick. It speeds up worker production at first and can be used to acquire other stuff faster. Terran have the only one that does not count against saturation which is effectively always a fast 270 mineral boost per cast(or ~380 if cast on gold) without costing either minerals or supply. Zerg if left unthreatened can have the faster macro of all, but if heavily threatened it's completely reversed.

Dunno, can't really make a verdict. I like all 3 different mechanics but can't pick a favourite... Maybe the mule is the coolest emergency funds call, but others are also nice...

Oh well

 

Make HT's faster and have slightly more total HP.
Maybe 90 total HP and 10% faster move speed.

I would also Like I a fraking god darned range upgrade for the imortals. +1 for 150/150 would nice. Hell I would take it for 200/200.

 

i agree with that!!!!

 

Seriously stop whining, Protoss race is balanced PvsZ...Zerg is the ultimate hardest race to play as you need to micro/macro more and yet you complain about protoss race when you need to throw larva every 40 second, 1 sec to late can be the end for you it is REALLY important and spreading creep every 30 seconds REALLY REALLY important and you need to make units at same time as making larva and YET you complain about protoss race...Colussus are powerful to hydras, lings and roaches thats the most common and best units zerg got so stop complaining about protoss is unbalanced when 1 colussus can 1 hit a hydra if the colussus got 3-0 that is overpower if anything + the splash...And the game isn´t about damage, the game is about STRATEGI, KNOWLEDGE, Unitcontrol, Mapcontrol, Scouting...Its a mind game so stop talking about damn damage which DOESN´T MATTER if you dont know how to play the game in a professional level.

 

buff the nerfs on QQing?

perhaps...

 

As of right now the Protoss win perchentage is in the 40s, zerg is in the 50s and Terran in the 70s.
I think this is mostly because all the patches have been nerfing down protoss so your right statistically protoss is the weakest race

 

No, it's not like that... Currently protoss has the highest win percentage of other races, in mid levels, iirc, around 57%. No race is at 40 or 70%(this would be sign for ridiculus imbalance issues).

 

Protoss units are great...
20 stalkers and 4 colossus would smash 15 marauder, 10 marine, and 6 medivac + stim. And if you're dying to lots of roaches then you're either just macroing poorly or you're pushing out too fast. If you push out against a Zerg with a couple colossus then you're probably going to get smashed. If you wait to get like 4 or 5 colossus and lots of supporting units then it's going to be far more effective.

 

In my last game against a zerg, well appart from 2 ladder games where I happened against 1basing zergs who failed miserably, I was playing against Kuvasz and at some point pushed out with a very small force, like 5zealots 5 sentries or something. I had a very good idea of his army-around 2times my army size in roaches- and still for some reason decided to attack... Obviously lost triumphantly, and later when I was watching the replay I paused and /facepalmed irl realising that I had just won a medal for one of the most retarded attacks known to man....

That was some good point you made there, lol, so I had to add this

 

Thats ridiculous.
20 (125,50) = 2500, 1000
+ 4(300,200) = +1200, 800
= 3700,800 =~4500

15 (100, 25) = 1500, 375
+ 10 (50,0) = 500, 0
+ 100, 100 = 100, 100
+ 6(100, 100) = 600, 600
= 2700, 1075 = ~3775

Gratz.

Since you didnt add colo range, colo has 6 range.

M$M stim and snipe colossi.
15(20) = 350. 1 colossi dead per burst, marine death is almost negligible.
When colossi are gone, the MMM will tear up the stalkers.

Note that protoss cost > terran.


Obviously, micro is taken into account, but you see, the terran has no "must take out" units. the medivac are somewhat immediate, but saying that you kill 1 medivac per burst of stalkers, itlll take longer to kill them (relative to death of colossi).

 

The void ray will be even worse now without the speed upgrade.

 

Yeah, agree with Insanity... 20stalker/4colo is a bad comparison against 15rauder 10rine 6 medvac and not only because of mineral/gas cost but also because of build times, unit composition and replenishment.

First off against a stalker/colo army both marines and medvacs are poor choices. Medvacs are awsome to replenish your troops outside of combat and to keep small platoons alive, but on larger scales they're not as good because they don't get tosave too many units due to the amount of fire going on on both sides. A marine attacked by 4 stalkers will die in 2 volleys despite having a medvac to heal him or not. A marine attacked by 1 stalker will prolly even manage to kill the stalker if he has medvac support(not at all sure and I cannot test such silly stuff right now due to lack of sc on this pc).

If you replaced the unit composition on the terran army with marauder/viking only and matched the stalker/colossi costs, you'd have something like this:

20stalker/4 colossi+lance for a total of 3900 minerals, 900 gas 64 supply
To make these out of a 3gate/robo build you need 1000 minerals/300 gas
totalling ~4900 minerals 1200gas


Since terran have mules we can be a little more lenient on minerals for terran: Since it's ~90 supply army we're talking about 4 mules would be a good number to assume, so if you subtract the extra probes off them that should mean an extra 500-ish minerals for the terran.

A 3rax/stargate will take 950 minerals 325 gas if you add 3 techlabs 1 reactor.

24 marauders(2400,600), 6 vikings(900,450) and the rest of the minerals in marines(20!) would be more like the equal of the protoss army... Or just get the whole army in marauders(like 40 of them since you don't waste time+money teching to starport) and have them stim and obliterate the stalker/colossus army....


This was a little bit too analytical, and does take army compositions into account by blindly building armies for both sides and not take responses into consideration...


A colossus/zealot army will obliterate any ground army terran can throw at protoss especially if supported by a few sentries for FFs/GS. Or colossus/immortal/zealot if they get a little too many tanks... Thing is that colossi do incredible amounts of damage and they are the main part of this army composition, and it's very easy for the terran to attach 2 starports to reactors and very quickly pump out vikings. You don't need stalkers in your deathball till the terran gets vikings out anyway, since they do less dmg than zealots, tank less damage than zealots due to marauders/tanks doing extra damage to them, and don't block bio from getting close to colossi for a snipe.

When vikings come into play then it's a matter of time till the colossi get sniped so you will need to transition to templar tech OR phoenix tech and hunt vikings down. Getting air-superiority through phoenixes is the path I personally prefer after going colossus tech, since templar fill in the same role as colossi and drain gas extremely fast. Getting air control through phoenixes will force the T to make marines, which colossi can melt like butter anyway. Tanks which outrange colossi can also get beamed up out of the way...

Generally marines/medvacs are a poor choice when dealing with colossi, and stalkers are a poor choice when dealing with non-viking terran army, so imo the example wasn't a really good one...

oh well, I think I kinda wrote too much about this anyway, plus such comparisons tend to oversimplify the game settings it's dynamics asside, so there's no much worth in this... Since I typed all this though I might as well post it, lol

 

Oh jeez my apologies. I was referring to something the original poster said. I should have used the quotation marks or mentioned who I was replying to. X_X

I agree with everything you said Stirlitz. I'm also pretty interested in the colos/zeal/phoenix army base. It's very efficient. If Terran doesn't get vikings then the graviton beams are a big issue. Imagine going into every battle with 10 or 12 marauders missing or something.

I once saw a player with a zeal/colos/phoenix army lose to dual starport dual reactor viking pump. The T got too many vikings for his phoenixes, so he lost all his colos. That's one thing to be weary of. Also I sometimes wonder if some kind of thor or tank composition army might be difficult to deal with. Immortals tend to help there though.

 

Add in void rays. Void rays + phoenix > vikings i tihnk
add in stalkers and focus fire them

 

Wait up, Zerg's win percentage is in the 50s? Seriously? Wow, that's quite impressive I thought it would be the lowest in comparison as knowing when you can squeeze out more drones and when you can't can be quite tricky to grasp.

 

Aye, Galaxy, that's what I'm also thinking... That colossus/zealot/phoenix combo seems quite potent, but yeah, terran can make such tech switches easily, by swapping addons, but phoenixes remain cost-efficient against vikings, so if you manage to set up a similar amount of stargates and keep similar production on air then your ground army will be larger than his, given similar economy for both players... Or at least, that's how I think about it in my head, I've only tried this combo once or twice in the past, and iirc it worked out quite well, but lack of time doesn't allow me to test it more...

I also wonder a lot about mech play in TvP as it interrests me a lot... Thors for example would be a great unit against this phoenix/colossus/zealot comp, since they're immune to beam, tear phoenixes appart, and are quite effective against both zealots and colossi... And since tanks outrange colossi pushing against a thor/tank force would seem quite suicidal to me...

I also did not reply to your post straight but the part Insanity quoted like 2 posts above mine

As for VRs, while vikings beat them up badly due to both range and speed, if they come in behind the phoenixes then it's a whole different story: VRs will obliterate vikings if they get in range, but if the T player tries to retreat his vikings and only attack phoenixes, he'll lose shots to micro and be as vulnerable against phoenix fire since they attack while moving... Or so it seems to me, unless the T player's go quite korean micro and manages to keep away from the VRs while still not losing shots against phoenixes...

Dunno, some good ideas around here, deffinitely

 

I am really getting tired of all the stupid nonsence about race balance problems......ALL races are able to defeat ANY race...So stop with your stupid nonsence whining on your race, learn to play the game before saying anything...Obviously you "can" play the game but i am talking about on a proffesional level, then you would have noticed that every race beats every race...The key is to scout, if you dont scout = less % to win the game so learn the basics of the game before you trashtalk the races.

 

I absolutely agree with Robin.
Ban him again please

jkjk. Robin, while I agree with u, it doesn't mean that there aren't balance problems both sides to this argument are too exagerrated, we gotta make some seriously small changes and see how they go. *cough* i mean blizzard...