protoss anti air?

the phoenix was gonna be replavcement for scout as well as sair, so i still vote fer anti ground atk. the phoenix doing 12 dmg is just too....ugh....i hope the upgrade is 6x2 + 2x2 then lol

 

i don;t think that would be to bad but maybe they could increase the fire rate and make it so the unit you select is just helpless not lifted into the air.

it would work like lockdown and it would render the unit usless like it is now.
so instead of there being a few phenix and a ton of voids or other units you could make due with a ton of phenix because you could (if you had enought) render a bunch of powerful units helpless and fellow phenix take the units out.
I think thats how they're suppost to work now. or maybe you could just add the ground att and a att speed as upgrades. think about that. do a cheap upgrade (like cloak for the wraiths) and basicly it would make them better.

 

hmmm, i like gaurdian's idea. maybe 125 energy per use, stays as long as lockdown, and the phoenix is um.........rendered useless meanwhile.
i still stick to the overload ability tho

 

I agree Overload was awesome.... but they removed it, so I don"t think they r gonna put it back again, sadly

 

I also find the Phoenix useless, it is not expensive, but needs some time to build. Low damage and normal rate of fire, bonus vs Light - just a few air units in the game are Light. You cannot even counter Zerg Overlords in the early game, as was possible with Corsairs in SC1 because 4 Phoenixes need 54 hours to kill one. The gravitation beam is funny and useless. I think Phoenixes need more damage or at least two additional attacks with the same dmg ( 4 x 6 ). I was just going to start a thread about them, but luckily I found this one

 

---Mr. Scanspeak

The fact that an anti-air and anti ground-attack-only unit takes time to build is an aspect of the came called balance. The gravity beam of theirs is extremely effective against marauders, roaches, siege tanks, workers, zealots etc. They are a counter to many of the units that would otherwise require void rays to beat up on.

Also, I'm surprised you consider the Zerg overlord as something that needs to be countered, I wasn't aware of their potential for massive damage.

 

Yes, you`re right - for countering Tanks and Marauders it is a solution, I agree. For Roaches and other mass units - I do not think so. And what "balance" is - believe me I do know. Its interesting why your reply has so much sarcasm, possibly because you didn`t notice that without Overlords Zerg cannot develop and going for a few Corsairs in the early game of SC1 was a very common solution. And this makes the Overlord a key unit in players` anti-Zerg strategy. Unfortunately there are players that look only at the damage of units and do not think further...

 

I think doubling to damage is not the answer to the Pheonix. I didn't play a lot of Brood War but I can guess that the counter to Corsairs picking off Overlords was Hydralisks most likely. Here's the problem, hydras are now tier 2. If you double the damage Pheonix's do, it'll make them be able to destroy Overlords way too easily.

 

Yes, Hydralisks were counter, but now you can have them at the same time as Phoenixes - Protoss needs Gateway-->Cybernetics core-->Stargate, Zerg needs Spawning pool-->Lair Mutation-->Hydralisk den, so they`re equal But that`s the point - a Zerg will need at least a spore crawler and it is fine as the time needed by the pjoenix to kill a single Overlord is too long. I do not believe doubling the damage is a solution either, but If they give it 4 attacks each of damage 4, or keep them the same but with faster shooting speed, it should be fine as it has more hitpoints than the Terran Viking.

 

I just watched a couple videos on youtube. 20 Pheonix vs 20 vikings and 100 pheonix vs 100 mutas. The pheonix vs vikings was pretty close, but the pheonixs (sp?) won. The Pheonix vs Muta wasn't close at all.

These videos aren't great for testing balance, but they do show us something. I agree with the outcome of the Pheonix vs Muta. Mutas cost the same, but can attack ground and air, so the dedicated AA should win.

The pheonix vs viking fight also went the way I think it should've. Vikings cost a bit less and are anti-armored air, while the pheonix isn't but does have the grav beam.

So they seem to do well against air, especially because they can't be micro'd against, they fly faster than vikings and can shoot while moving.

I don't think they'd do terribly well in a straight on fight (although you can use them to eliminate important ground units, like tanks), but I feel they are really made to harass. Just move in, pick up a queen or some workers, kill it, then leave and let their shields recharge, as they recharge pretty fast in SCII, 40 sec to get to full. Even if they get turrets, it's possible to micro the pheonixs taking damage before they get shot, just let the shields recharge.

 

You have to split your air forces and pincer the phoenix. Even then it's still pretty hard to score hits.

Probably still best to use them against zerg as they can hunt ovies very well. They can lift and kill queens. You can use them agaisnt workers... just seems a bit impracticable to me.

 

So playing as Protoss, what should I build to counter mass BattleCruisers? Void Rays/Stalkers?

 

Battlecruisers are very hard to counter as protoss. Stalkers don't work very well, they just don't have the endurance and damage to compete with BCs. Phoenixes fail even more, only doing 4 damage an attack against the armored hulls of BCs. Void rays seem like the perfect counter, unfortunately the battle cruisers still win by one shotting the void rays with yamato cannon.

The best counter protoss have is void rays with either sentry or high templar support. Sentries can make void ray hallucinations to soak up some yamato shots, and can also guardian shield to reduce the BC's already weak air attack from 6 to 4, allowing the void rays to easily outlast them. High templar can feedback the BC's to prevent their yamato cannon, so you can crush them with a superior amount of void rays.

 

Great advice.I think the combination of units is the best answer for the heavy battlecruisers.