Phoenix: Ground attack?

Much more effective? You've not even used it yet.

 

Very true you have not used the Phoenix yet. I think however that the Phoenix would be much more effective as a unit overall by being able to attack ground units. I think they should also bring back the over-load ability it had many a moon ago.

 

There is no reason to give the Phoenix an Anti-Ground attack, and doing so would reduce unit diversity. Overall, there's absolutely no need for it. Just look at the Corsair, Valkyrie and Devourer, and Scourge, of StarCraft1. Do any of those need or have any other reason to be given an Anti-Ground attack? The Phoenix is in the same boat, along with Corrupters and Vikings in StarCraft2. Although each has the means to attack a Ground target, the units themselves are Air-to-Air fighters. They have no need for an Anti-Ground attack, especially when there are Mutalisks, Brood Lords, Banshees, Battlecruisers, Warp Rays, Carriers and Motherships to do that anyway.

 

As you see here Itza we are talking about Protoss not the other races at the moment. And I agree it does not need a huge anti ground attack but I think it would be realistic if it could somehow defend itself from marines other than lifting a small group of them into the air and shooting them there with the anti-gravity (which I don't think it even has anymore, I don't remember). Yes we have Carriers, Motherships, and Warp Rays however Carriers are tier 2.5 if I remember correctly and Motherships and Warp Rays are tier 3.0 so that means besides the phoenix you won't have any other ships for a while that have attacking capabilities. And the only ship through tier 1.5 to 2.5 with attacking capabilities is the phoenix and does not have a ground attack is incredibly vulnerable to ground attacks without support.

 

If it does not need a huge Anti-Ground attack, then it will simply end up like the Wraiths and Scouts of StarCraft1, with such a pitifully weak attack that it becomes more of a pain to use. It still does manage to reduce unit diversity though, as if you mass enough you're still able to take care of most Ground threats, albeit expensively.

Apart from that, the Void Ray is at the exact same tier as the Phoenix, as it only requires a Star Gate to be produced.

 

Well that is good that we get the Warp Ray at the same time as the Phoenix but that still does not answer our need to take care of infantry.

 

As a sort of aside, Darth_Bane the Warp Ray is now known as the Void Ray; ItzaHexGor is correct. I also don't really perceive the Protoss as having a need to counter infantry. They have plenty of ways to kill them!

 

Colossus should be fine in terms of pseudo-AtG, but I just want to see that anti-gravity gone. Units should have abilities that make sense gameplay wise AND lore wise. Anti-gravity may work for gameplay on the Phoenix, but it absolutely fails lore wise. I wouldn't mind seeing anti-gravity on the Void Ray, and maybe even with the ability to lift massive units re-enabled. If it shares the same tier as the Phoenix but is a bit more expensive, it should work perfectly that way.

 

What's so wrong with anti-gravity lore-wise on the Phoenix that being on the Void Ray would fix? I don't see anything wrong with the Phoenix having anti-gravity.

 

Please do not quote more than you type in a post. Second infraction. More will result in deducted minerals.

In starcraft, the protoss already had a nice, light air unit that had AtG. it was the Scout. Terrans had Wraith. Zerg still has Corruptor (replacement for Devourer i think), and the Mutalisks. Carriers and motherships r expensive and slow.

 

The Scout cost about as much as a Nexus and dealt less damage than a Ghost. Just to get some perspective here, a lone Carrier costs twenty five minerals and gas more than a Scout, the only crux being the Interceptors. That said, two Interceptors deal more damage against Ground targets than a Scout does. It takes six shots to take down a Probe or Drone, and eight to take down an SCV.

The Wraith was mildly better than the Scout, but they have the vastly improved Banshee now, so it's not really an issue.

As for Zerg, neither the Corrupter or Devourer has an Anti-Ground attack. And yes, they still have the Mutalisk.

As for Motherships and Carriers being expensive and slow, you just reminded me that on top of a Scout costing about as much as a Carrier, it starts off being pretty much just as slow as well. So, summing up, if you're counting a unit who's cost is surmountable to investing in the construction of a new base and attack damage is only slightly less feeble than throwing pieces of butter bread with your off hand, then yes, the Scout is an excellent example of an agile, superior Air-to-Ground fighter.

 

well scout also was pretty good vs. capital ships. It also had a pretty high HP (150 + 100). even if it did have a weak ground attack, at least it could fend itself! throwing in a new base requires additional minerals and gas to support and defend as well as time to manage it. Phoeniz -> only good vs. light air units. it cant even fend itself, cept antigravity but it cant even atk during that time. cant it just have sumthing like 5 or 6 x2 ground attack?!?! Btw, zerg can spam mutalisks

 

So what if the Scout was good against Capital ships? The Void Ray's already there to take care of that.

As for the Ground-to-Air, the Scout may have been capable of attacking Ground targets, but they should not be considered as a viable Air-to-Ground fighter, at all, ever. So, overall, the Protoss have never had any sort of unit that could possibly be classified as an agile superior Air-to-Ground flyer, because they don't need one.

And yes, Zerg can spam Mutalisks. You can also spam Archons.

Spammed Mutalisks + Spammed Archons = Spammed Archons.

If you catch my drift.

 

"As for the Ground-to-Air, the Scout may have been capable of attacking Ground targets, but they should not be considered as a viable Air-to-Ground fighter, at all, ever."

Why?

Oh never mind. I'll just say the current void ray isn't good at worker raiding, and neither is the phoenix! (The graviton beam mechanic isn't efficient enough for that.)

While, given the void ray's role and flavor, we shouldn't expect the void ray to be good at killing workers, but I don't see why the phoenix needs to suck so much at that.

Both the protoss and the terrans have cliff climbers which are good at killing workers, but the terrans still have another option (bansehees), which is great because the enemy has to protect against air attackers (banshees) and ground attackers (reapers).

Against protoss, you really only need anti-air defenses (hydralisks, missile turrets, vikings, etc, which can shoot the colossus, as well as warp prisms).

 

Instead of a ground attack, what about a shield ability for the phoenix? One that greatly reduces damage taken, but disables it's own weapon whilst the shield is active. And the weapon doesn't come back online straight away, it has a bootup time of maybe 10 seconds after the shield deactivates. So while a phoenix can escape, it leaves the air theatre open for the taking.

And think of all the micro -- shielding your phoenixes at the latest possible moment. And attackers having to consider changing focus as one becomes shielded.

 

@ Kimera. That's because neither of them are designed for worker raiding. By that same argument, Scourges should have been given an Anti-Ground attack, because they're not good at worker raiding. So in answer to your concern about why the Phoenix sucks so much at raiding workers, it's for the very same reasons that Zerglings suck at taking down Banshees.

As for defending against Air and Ground in regards to raids, you're forgetting about the existence of Stalkers.

 

All it would do would make the unit overpowered its already insanely fast and really good the way it is as a harrasser/quick anti air defense and the cost makes it worth building.

Besides the protoss already have a ton of units that cover any kind of ground attack.

 

I did notice the mutalisk. THe zerg did (and do) still have a worker raider in the form of that unit.

I didn't include all counters, I just listed three. Also, stalkers aren't that great vs reapers, but they don't really suck vs them either.

 

Did I just miss out on a couple of pages of discussion all of a sudden? Where's the Mutalisk and Reaper come into this? I mean, yes, you're right. The Zerg does have the Mutalisk. But what's that got to do with the Phoenix and Void Ray's lack of ability to raid the opponent's economy? And yes, you're probably right again in that the Stalker wouldn't be particularly effective against Reapers, but how is that relevant to the Stalker's ability to raid workers?

 

I just finished reading this and I've got to say after 10+ years there are still people in favour of clear-cut unit equivalence among the races, completely failing to understand that the whole point of Starcraft is to create three races that at first glance are so different that one might be compelled to say it's impossible to balance the game or find clear counters for particular units. This is what SC2 aims for, too, so I suggest to all the WCII 1:1 fans to stop reading up on SC2, as it's probably y a waste of time for them.

As for the thread, I veto the ground attack on grounds of racial asymmetry, and the very apt term of 'pseudo-air-unit' for the colossus, courtesy of Itza. As has been drafted previously,

• Zerg: mutalisk weak against air and ground

• Terran: banshee good against ground

• Protoss: phoenix good against air

And this, I think, is what is written up on one of Blizzard's planning boards from a few years earlier.

What the phoenix needs is the ability to counter masses of light air units, as that is not addressed currently by the Protoss arsenal. I like the overload ability because it resembled a phoenix bird vaguely - the current anti-gravity ability was simply shuffled around after being deemed too powerful for the nullifier and not psychic enough for the HT (imo), but was too "awesome" to cut from the game. I'm hoping Blizzard will come to their senses and reimplement overload, even if it means losing anti-gravity completely from the game, but this is for another thread.

I shall cast my vote now and see the standings.