New Thor Thread

Or we can do what i suggested a while ago when i joined

Combine the Reaper and Marauder together to make a single unit that can raid the enemy base by throwing mines into workers and at building, as well as fire slowing greandes that allow it to be used alongside frontline combat units such as marines in a supporting role. Plus a slowing attack seems better suited to the Reaper, slowing down the enemies workers so that they can be picked off as well slowing enemy units that have been sent to kick them out of their base, giving them time to escape.

but ofcourse the attack may have to be changed to a anti light bonus instead of anti armour due to the mine doin a anti armour attack

 

they should give D8 charges if they explode on you an AOE slow effect and remove the marauder. then this gives space fore the medic to return.

and blind_outlaw that wouldn't be a change for the reaper he is already doing extra dmg to light armored units. the marauder on the other hand is doing extra dmg to heavy armored

 

@ Psionicz. If having Medics heal from inside Dropships can sort out the Terran infantry problem, then there wouldn't be a need to change up the Terran units as it wouldn't really achieve anything seeing as the problem would already be fixed.

Giving the Reapers a bonus against workers does not limit them to doing so any more than giving Vikings a bonus against Light units limits them. They'd still be able to fight as normal as I've never said they'd deal one base damage and a bonus ten against workers, or anything, as that would obviously make them useless in open combat. Instead, however, they could deal ten damage plus a bonus of about five to workers, still allowing them to fight as normal but making them stronger against workers so that even if they do meet a little resistance, they don't need to fight their way through it because they'll be able to take the workers out faster than they otherwise would, and disappear faster as a result.

The Marauder only has the one role of slowing down enemies if Blizzard designs it purely for that role which they obviously wouldn't. It can still be a decent attacker as having a slowing effect doesn't instantly mean it can't deal much damage. It deals area of effect damage just as like your Reaper would, so it would still be viable damage-wise for large battles. I'm aware that the Marauder wouldn't deal melee splash and would just deal regular splash, but it's not really that much of an issue that early on. The Terran will still have something that will be able to attack units who are protected by Dark Swarms if the player has been unable to reach Jackals, etc, by then. Basically, the Marauder doesn't have to have next to no damage. You're just assuming that it will end up like that for some reason.

The Banshee would deal 100% damage to the units in its radius as it deals damage in the same way as flamethrowers, being a whole area at once, and not like Siege Tank or Marauders, that deal damage to a single point and it dissipates outwards. You're saying that the Banshee wouldn't work because it just means that the Terran would rely on it to much as a counter, but the same applies to the Reaper. I'm basically just giving that attack to a different unit. Regardless of the Jackal's attack projectile, the unit is designed to deal melee damage. It's attack is just like the Lurker's.

@ Remy. You're right about still relying on Dropships to heal Reapers, but could making Reapers, being current Reapers and not flamethrower/Marauder replacing Reapers, a later tier? The Terran would still have the Marauder for splash and kiting, the Marine for damage and the Medic for healing, so do you suppose it would be possible to save the Reaper until later? Terran haven't had late-game infantry so far, but it does make sense. Reapers are the worst of criminals so are likely to only be used in more desperate situations, i.e. are only available later in the game. That way their attack could also be increased to blend in with the increasing firepower of later tier units, making them more viable in combat, and the same goes for health, which would mean that they'd be more durable and damaging so would be able to survive minor resistances when raiding another base.

Having Medics healing from Dropships would still be useful, especially when considering some new abilities, notably the Snipe and Detect Caster of the Ghost. A Dropship would stop your Medics being detected and getting sniped. I'm not sure about Nullifiers and Anti-Gravity, but regular Medics probably wouldn't be able to heal when under the effects of Anti-Gravity, so seeing as they'd be in Air unit anyway, it wouldn't effect them. Not to mention that they'd last longer as they couldn't be picked off so your Marines, etc, would be being healed for longer. The one thing you'd have to watch for is if your Dropship is getting too close to death, in which case you can unload them all basically supplying your Marine with however many Medics, still complete with full health. However it wouldn't be too overpowered as there would be ways of instantly taking out or trapping the Dropships. A sudden focus of fire or use of abilities like Yamato Cannon would take out the Dropships super quick, along with all the Medics, and destroying Dropships while they're passing over impassable terrain would also prohibit the Dropship from unloading, however that's nothing unique to StarCraft2 apart from the Medic's new function within the Dropship.

I never said that D8 Charges would make Reapers 100% the best choice for raiding, but it definitely does help differentiate them from Marine raids. Reapers would be able to lay their Charges, dealing sixty damage each, and keep attacking the workers, buildings and any light resistance, while Marines would only be attacking the workers, buildings and resistance. If Reapers deployed their charges and attacked for ten seconds, they'd probably deal a lot more than Marines who just attacked for ten seconds, even if they use Stim Packs. However, as the raid wears on, the Marines would be dealing more damage as the Reapers do not have constant access to their Charges and would suffer during their downtime. That's my take on it anyway, as the real outcome would depend on the exact stats of each unit.

Vikings are not too late to deal with infantry as infantry still exist in late game. It doesn't mean that Vikings will only be able to counter infantry as they have a strong attack regardless. With a bit of splash damage and inadvertent crossfire coming from surrounding units, which tends to happen most of the time, Vikings would be able to take out most infantry in a single shot. Against larger infantry or other Light units that have larger health reserves, they'd only need two, and they don't fire particularly slowly. They'd still be useful against almost all Ground targets, but they'd be exceptional against Light Ground targets.

Again, about Dark Swarm, the Marauder's area of effect attack would still allow Terran to attack units within it, provided that they haven't acquired Jackals, Siege Tanks and Banshees yet. Giving such an early unit the ability to practically counter Dark Swarm isn't necessarily a good thing either as it means that the Zerg get next to no reward for rushing Dark Swarm and it also takes the pressure off the Terran player's need to tech as even if they are Dark Swarm rushed, which is Terran's Achilles heel seeing as they're all ranged, as they'd already have a unit to counter it. Rushing is all about getting a particular tech or unit before your opponent has the chance to counter it. Zergling rushes reach the enemy before they've established their defence, Dark Templar rushes reach the enemy before they've acquired Detectors, so if there's the possibility of a Dark Swarm rush, which would reach the enemy before they have area of effect damage, then it should be able to be used to Zerg's advantage. Terran would still be able to retaliate with area of effect Marauders, so it wouldn't be game over, but they wouldn't be as effective as if they'd teched to Jackals, etc.

It may seem to you as though I'm blending Terran all out of shape just to accommodate the Marauder, but to me, you're twisting the Terran all out of shape just to accommodate the Medic, when there are other ways in which it can be done.

Medics and Marauders can coexist, as long as together they aren't overpowered. This would be done as I explained earlier by either increasing the Medics healing and decreasing the Marauder's slowing, or decreasing the Medic's healing and increasing the Marauders slowing. In my opinion it would be better to decrease the Medic's healing and increase the Marauder's slowing. Both would still do their job, but Medics have their other abilities, would have longer to heal Marines after the shield upgrade, would also be useful after battles to get everything back to full health and are also able to last longer when healing from inside Bunkers and Dropships, while Marauders would only be there for their damage and slowing effect which are both only useful in combat.

 

I can't be botherd to debate this right now but, throw whole slowing mechanism just doesn't do it.
And Itza, they already have a bonus vs workers so...
The flamethrowers means they are not dependant on any healing, ever done a firebat rush?

 

If you can't be bothered to debate it right now, why bother posting at all? Just wait until you have the time or effort to respond to the whole thing.

Saying 'the whole slowing mechanic just doesn't work' is a pretty rash and inane statement and could be said about anything. I could say the whole healing mechanic just doesn't work, but does that make it true? Of course it doesn't. Medics were a wonderful addition to BroodWar and suited perfectly. At the moment there's nothing that shows that slowing won't be in the same boat. It's just another way to keep Terran's fragile and long ranged army out of melee combat. It will work if it is implemented correctly, just like how healing worked as it was implemented correctly. If they end up removing it, then it obviously wasn't working, but as of now, there's nothing to prove that's the case.

Reapers apparently already have a bonus against Light units but that doesn't mean that it can't be replaced with a bonus against workers. Saying that there's no reason for the Reapers to have a bonus against workers, as they could just as easily have a bonus against all Light units, that would include workers, is like saying that Vikings, which have a bonus against Light units should just be given that damage against all units, as that would include Light units. Units have these bonuses for a reason, so no, the Reapers having a bonus against workers is not be the same as them having a bonus against all Light units.

Flamethrowers do not mean that that unit is not dependent on healing. Firebat rushes were effective because the Firebats dealt the most damage against Small units, which consisted of all the units that your opponent was likely to have at that stage. It was also at a stage in the game where healers were not needed as much anyway, just like almost any rush. The idea of rushes are to catch the enemy before they have a proper chance at defending themselves, so if your opponent is not properly able to defend themselves, then why would you need to heal your Firebats?

 

Lol sorry I was tired, and just kinda got out of bed.

That makes them even less useful against any other unit, as their full 6 damage would only be dealt to workers and it would be like 2-4 on other units.
Increasing their base attack would make them better than Marines.

Sorry but this is a very confusing portion of your reply...
You pretty much answered it your self, having the Light bonus makes them effective against workers anyway, so no matter what they're effective. Your suggestion simple limits them to being useful mainly against little workers, which puts them in a catagory of the Marauder where its only useful at a certain time vs a few units which even being slowed others can still eat the Marauders.
How could it not be the same having a bonus vs all light and workers, bonus vs light lets them ve useful in more than one way, bonus vs workers limits them to mainly being used to raid econmy and how easy is that to stop; just throw some static defense and a tank or something and Reapers would have to try even harder, then by that time Reapers become useful due to their weakened attack since they only work well vs workers.

And because they built faster than Marines and had that little bit more HP (not 100% sure on the HP) and because they dealt splash so they could move around very quickly and deal damage to like everything with correct micro.

Firebat rush was not that fast as opposed to a Marine, Zealot or Zergling rush, by the time you had enough Firebats they'd have enough to defendm but the fact Firebats were so fast build you could continuously replenish fallen Firebats and attack in several places as once which broke up your opponents forces, forcing him to spread out as if he clustered he gets splashed, if he splits, he gets outnumbered.
The reason Medics were needed a lot is because the Firebat rush would never be successful without stim packs, as they were just to slow for an effective raid.
The Reapers solve this problem as they are fast and have a secondary attack which aids them in fleeing or offense meaning they have the possibilty to survive on their own without the Medics since they are more microable and have the same effect as Firebat rushing did, if they had the flame throwers.
If they didn't as you saw in the video they wouldn't do much except shoot a few workers and throw a few mines at a building them retreat, which is extremly linear as I can't imagine another scenario where they'd be really useful in their current state when you could just have Vikings instead.

 

That was what I was saying. If you don't have the time to do so or something, it's usually better to just wait until you do so you can reply to the whole thing.

Their base damage could still be six, or whatever it is now, and they wouldn't be better than Marines as Marines have longer range, Stim Packs and can attack Air targets. The Reaper would be just as it is now, only it would have an added bonus against workers. They'd still be just as just a powerful against pretty much everything as they are now, and could even be made more powerful if their damage is obsolete as of now, but when they're attacking workers, they're able to take them out much quicker. Marines would be better overall, Reapers would still deal a decent amount of damage, but have an added bonus against workers.

There are Light and Armoured units, which are the two subsets of all units, and there are workers and non-workers, which are the two subsets of Light units. You're saying that there's no point in giving something a bonus against worker units, as giving them that same bonus against Light units would make them effective against both workers and non-workers. However, that is like saying that there's no point in giving something a bonus against Light units, as giving them that same bonus against all units would make them effective against both Light and Armoured units. It's the same thing. Instead of having a bonus against one subset, you'd have a bonus against both subsets. That is what I am getting at as giving them a bonus against Light units is not the same as giving them a bonus against workers, as it's like giving a unit with a bonus against Light units, a bonus against Armoured units.

My suggestion doesn't limit Reapers to being useful against workers, just as the Viking's bonus does not limit the Viking to being useful against Light units and the Siege Tank's bonus does not limit the Siege Tank to being useful against Armoured units. It's all the same. Just because they have a bonus, it doesn't mean that they're only useful against that type, it just means that they're even more effective against that type.

As one example, Ultralisks do bonus damage against Buildings, but not against all Armoured targets. Does this make them useless against everything except buildings? No, as their base damage is the most major component of its attack, the bonus just gives it a bit more strength when attacking Buildings. Does it mean that it should be given a bonus against all Armoured units? No, as that would offset the balance. As another example, the Baneling has a massive bonus against Buildings, but not against Armorued units. Does this mean that it's only effective against buildings? No, as they do not need to deal so much damage against units. Does it mean that it should be given a bonus against all Armoured units? No, as though would be highly unbalanced. In both examples, they are both capable of taking on things other than Buildings, as their base damage is strong enough to deal with them, but the bonus just gives them an added, well, bonus, so it doesn't just limit them to being useful against Buildings.

Why do you speak of bonus damage as being a limitation? It's a bonus. An added bonus. Their base damage does not change as a result of them getting a bonus so they'd still deal a decent, respectable and balanced amount of damage against all units, but would be even more effective when attacking workers, allowing them to take them out quicker, allowing them to be in and out quicker, giving your opponent less time to react.

So what? They were still in there before there was enough defences to counter it. That's the idea of a rush. To catch your enemy before they've had a proper chance to defend themselves. Talking about how effective Firebat rushes were gives little support to giving Reaper's flamethrowers. Yes, they had more health, dealt ranged splash damage and were fast, but Zerglings were the renowned rushers, who had very little health and dealt melee damage to a single target. Apart from raiding being different to rushing, you don't need splash damage for either.

The idea of a rush is to get to them before they can properly defend. If they have enough to defend, it's just a normal attack. I don't know where you're getting the fact that Firebats had such a short build time from, it's the same as the Marine. I also don't get how you're saying that if your opponent micro's their units to spread them out, they'll be outnumbered. You'll still have the same number of Firebats and they'll still have the same number of troops, only spread out and attacking from all sides, so not only have the numbers not changed, but your Firebats' splash is near useless and they're having to run around to each unit.

You've lost me here. Apart from the rest of your Firebat rush argument not making sense, like them having such a short build time and outnumbering your opponent in they micro properly, this really doesn't help. Medics have a longer build time than them, so not only would that be disrupting your constant supply on Firebats, which supposedly have a short enough build time to replenish fallen Firebats, but you'd also have to research Stim Packs from the Academy so by this stage you're spending way too much gas in order to produce a constant supply of Stim Packed Firebats and Medics. I may have misinterpretted what you've been saying though, so feel free to have another crack at it.

I assume you mean the D8 Charges when you're referring to their secondary attack, but that has to be researched, so won't help out with rushes too much. Again, there's no reason why flamethrowers are essential for this plan. There are tonnes of other raiders and rushers who did not have area of effect attacks, and they were usually the most renowned ones, like Zerglings and Zealots.

They would only be limited to that if their base damage was limited to that, which it wouldn't be, otherwise it would be too limited. That may sound circular, but it's quite simple. They would only be limited to taking out workers and throwing D8 Charges if their base damage is so low that they're limited to only attacking workers and deploying D8 Charges. Obviously Blizzard wouldn't give them such low base damage that they're useless against everything else, because that would be too limiting, so logically they wouldn't do it meaning that the Reapers would be viable for more than just attacking workers and throwing D8 Charges.

 

Bonus damage only to workers does in fact limit a unit's functionality. Bonus VS Light as opposed to bonus VS workers apply the bonus damage to more units. The difference between the case compared to bonus to Light VS Siege is that, workers are generally not combat units, so you are setting a hard limit on how generally useful a unit can be. No matter how you look at it, bonus VS Light achieves everything bonus VS worker does, except it's generally more useful since it also applies to some combat units. If one is generally more useful, it's because the other is somewhat limiting.

I do not think making Reapers a late-game unit is a good idea at all. Generally, high mobility hit-and-run harassment units are only useful in base raiding at mid-game. Later on there is generally more static D and combat units around to limit successful hit-and-run attempts. So making Reapers even later tech would only worsen the problem. I think ideally, the Reaper would need to be made a useful unit at its proper tech tier, then have D8s add to Reaper's in-game functionality a bit later on, the same way Marine Shield, Zealot Charge, or Zergling "Crack" extend the usefulness of basic units.

Regarding the idea of Medic healing from inside Dropships, I just want to clarify that I absolutely believe that it is a good idea, I was just saying that it doesn't help with the Reaper situation. I would love to see it included in the game regardless of what ends up being done with the Reaper or Marauder.

@ i2new@aol.com, About the Jackal, and why I believe it's a bad idea, is basically the same deal as the Marauder. When looking at just the unit itself, its basic design, mechanics, and functionality, it is a good unit. The unit itself is useful, and is something Terran have a need for(which I still believe about the Marauder and its slowing mechanic). However, when you take a look at the whole game in a wider perspective, it's not really a good idea.

In the case of the Jackal, it has to do with Zerg, specifically the Lurker. The Lurker was one of the few units that I personally believed to be damn close to be perfectly balanced, and that could be carried over unchanged. I believed that improving it could make it too good, and needed to retain its functionality so it shouldn't be nerfed. However, the Lurker(as well as much of the rest of Zerg) has been nerfed to hell. Yet, the Terran was given the Jackal. It is basically everything the Lurker is, but better, but even without any of its drawbacks or balancing factors. The Jackal is currently a bad idea, as the Lurker has been moved to tier 3 without any changes(even if they aren't all pure improvements). Creatively, the Jackal sucks, no matter how useful it may be to the Terran.

 

@Remy. thats ok if your feel the unit sucks but the terrans besides this unit, the tank, a BC upgraded with (PT), and mines is the only form of splash that the terrans have. Most of the other terran units relay on tactics imo and i see the jackal in the same way. This unit has been in the line up for some time and its not as good as a lurker at the coast of its cheap coast. It is a visable unit, its dmg is low and we dont even know how fast it moves. Its very possible this unit could be balanced and still have a spot altho you would think of the spot as an odd spot filled i would like to see this unit stay. It might have low dmg and it might be the only good to rid your self of lower tier units at the spot that it stands in the terran tier this might swing the balance in your favor if you need to get rid of tons of little units. I wanna see this unit stay.

 

@Remy. I know this doesn't justify the fact that the Lurker currently is tier 3 but I believe I should mention it.
According to http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Lurker , the sc2 Lurker costs 25 minerals and 75 gas (sc1 Lurker was at 50/100).

It definitely needs to be moved down a tier or be greatly improved somehow, because currently it doesn't look like a tier 3 unit at all.


I agree about the Jackal. It's simply a Lurker that doesn't need to burrow.

 

^ i agree. thats why im suggesting that the lurker should get a new buffier look. and if it really look different then just change the name we have too many returning zerg core units after all.

 

Zeratul, I didn't mean literally, as in design-wise. I meant stat-wise. But yeah, I am with ya. The SC2 Lurker is a lot smaller than the SC1 Lurker. But we have yet to see the new Lurker though. It might be bigger.

 

Again, it is not a limitation. I don't know how you can think of a bonus as a limitation. It's like thinking of a dog as a cat. A bonus does not mean that the unit's base attack is useless or anything, it just means that it will get a bonus against certain unit types. For example, take a Marine. Normal unit, no bonuses, good damage output. Now, let's say it has a bonus against Light units. Does this limit the Marine's functionality? No, as it still deals its base damage, which was decent before and is therefore still decent, against all units, only it has a bonus against Light units. You may say that that's only the case because there are a lot of Light units, so let's make it more specific. Let's say the Marine is only given a bonus against workers. Does this limit the Marine's functionality? Again, it does not. It still deals its decent base damage to all units, only it has a bonus against workers. The same goes for the Reaper. It will not limit its functionality, so it will still be able to be given a decent base damage, which it will deal to all units, only it will have a bonus against workers.

As I said earlier, pre-existing units have bonuses of all shapes and sizes. Some have more huge bonuses, while others have almost insignificant bonuses. None of these bonuses, regardless of how big or small they are, limit that unit in any way. Ultralisks deal great base damage and have a tiny bonus against buildings, but that does not limit them to buildings. Banelings have a massive bonus against buildings, and deal relatively pathetic, though still decent, base damage, and still does not limit them to buildings. Bonuses are not limitations. If the Reaper gets a bonus against workers, then it makes it more effective against workers. It does not make them useless against non-workers.

A bonus versus Light units may not actually achieve everything that a bonus versus workers would. If that bonus is applies to almost half the Reaper's attackable units, then its base damage may have to be reduced, meaning it might end up weaker against the other half. If it keeps its normal base damage and has a bonus against a more specific unit type, being the workers, then it will always have a decent attack against all unit types, plus its bonus on economy raids.

You're probably right on this one, it was only a suggestion, but this convention seems to be being broken in StarCraft2. There are a lot more higher tier raiding units than there were in StarCraft1. There're the Vikings, the Colossi, the Nydus Wyrm, Warp In, the Mothership's Recall, Infesters' moving while Burrowed and, arguably, the Swarm Guardians' Broodlings. Either way, the current Reaper is not going to be useless at later tiers, so if the Reaper was, in fact, moved to a later tier, then it would obviously be given the necessary improvements to survive in those conditions, making it even more effective than the Reaper was later in the game. However, if moving Reaper's to a later tier doesn't work, what about moving the Dropship to an earlier tier? Terran are all about mobility anyway so it would make sense for them to need such a unit earlier in the game. Obviously it isn't going to be Tier 1, and presumably the Reaper is not going to require the aid of Medics that early in the game, so if the Dropship is moved to Tier 2 or so, then it will be available for when the enemy has more resistance to base raids, etc.

 

From what I can glean about this disscussion without re-reading its about the Reaper. First oss my opinion on what should be done with the reaper is simple; give it the Marauder's attack so it can either directly support Marines or go on raids with its D-8 charges and call it a day. This gives the Reaper a support role that will be useful throughout most of the game while still maintaining its base raider role without making it overpowered, also by doing this the Marauder is gone, the medic could potentialy come back and were gold or you could add something new, doesn't matter to much to me.

As far as the bonus vs. limit disscussion is concerned, attack bonuses are limits. This is true for a couple of reasons one of the most obvious being since everything has to be balanced in Sc2 if you give something a bonus somewhere there has to be a proportional penalty somewhere. However the bigger problem in this particular case is the mentality of the bonus. When an average person sees that a unit has a bonus against a specific unit they think that the unit (with the bonus) is primarily a counter for the other and not in fact a good general unit that just happens to better against unit. Another way to look at it is in opporunity costs, assuming all armor is equal a unit without any bonus has an almost negligable opportunity cost because it simple is by attacking one unit you can't attack a different one which makes perfect sense. However the opportunity cost for a unit with a bonus is more scewed because if it atacks something it doesn't have a bonus against the opportunity cost is attacking X unit with Y more efficiency which makes players want to attack Y more often and because of the lesser given up opportunity cost by attacking X a player isn't as likely to change targets mid fight. And if we compare the unit with a bonus to a unit without that are perfectly balanced with each other the one with the bonus is only going to be better against the things it has a bonus against and weaker than unit (without a bonus) against everything. Which means the unit with the bonus is more limited than a unit without.

 

@ Gasmask, Thanks, I didn't know that. But yeah, it doesn't really change my opinion on the Lurker or the Jackal.

@ Hex, You are focusing on the word "bonus" a bit too much, it is irrelevant, it is just a word. In truth, it isn't all that different than the SC1 damage type system, it just means that a unit will deal reduced damage to everything it doesn't have a bonus against. The difference is only a minor technicality, flat value VS percentage based value. So when you suggest giving bonus VS workers, you are really saying let's make the Reaper deal reduced damage VS everything else(which happen to include all the combat units in the game).

I don't know why you insist on believing that the word "limit" automatically mean "useless," but it does not, nor has anyone suggested as such. The SC1 Hydralisk happens to be perhaps the most "all purpose" unit despite having damage penalties VS medium and small units, or, highest bonus only VS large units, depending on how you look at it. The SC1 Marine by comparison, was not as all around useful despite dealing full damage VS everything. But you can clearly see how the Firebat was an overspecialized unit that ran out of usefulness very quickly due to it having a specifically designated scope of functionality.

Will the Reaper be completely useless VS all non-worker units if it had bonus VS only workers? Not necessarily. But will the Reaper have reduced effectiveness in all other combat situations because of it? Quite definitely. And you must face it, we're talking about the Reaper, not the Siege Tank. So an argument on how it can still have good base damage for fighting all other units in the game despite having bonus damage VS only workers will only get you so far. The SC1 Siege Tank was a meaningful drop option(even unsieged) despite having damage penalties VS small and medium units and greatly reduced damage while in Tank mode, but you can't possibly expect the same thing from the Reaper.

Based on what we've had in SC1, and what's been seen so far in SC2, there is little reason or incentive why a unit should not have its bonus VS workers applied to all Light units. Bonus VS Light as opposed to only workers provide inherent breadth of strategic freedom and possible functionalities. It is the lack there of in the case of bonus VS only workers that makes it a more limiting option. The Reaper will have two-tiered functionality, situations where it will deal reduced damage(no bonus) and situations where it will deal full damage(bonus). You are suggesting that the Reaper's full damage scenario be limited to ONLY apply to workers, I don't understand how you can see that as not a limitation. It is quite a significant one.

 

@ LordKerwyn. I don't agree with combining the Marauder's attack with the Reaper. Both the Reaper and Marauder are designed to have very specialised roles, one as a raider and the other as a support unit. Neither are limited to that role, but they're both specialised for it. Merging them would be plausible, but it would combine way to many of the Terran's new mechanics into a single unit, which could get messy very quickly. Having a slowing, cliff-jumping amalgam of raider and support unit would go strongly against the Terran's usual choice of having more powerful but more specialised units.

About the mentality of the bonus, I'm sure that the average person won't be so obsessed with getting the absolute most out of their Reapers that they'll only use them to counter what they've got their bonus against. Not only does it apply to all units with a bonus, and not only would Reapers not be high on the average persons' micro list, but workers aren't even in most open battles, so there wouldn't be anything for the player to foolishly focus his or her firepower on. When on raids, the average player would still be able to make the call of whether to continue or abort the attack, so a bonus against workers is not a hindrance there. In other words, a player would not foolishly sacrifice his or her Reapers just so that they can make use of their bonus. About the balancing, they've done it with all the other units that have a bonus, so there's no reason why they can't do it with the Reaper, especially seeing as the bonus is only against one particular unit type in a fairly specific scenario.

@ Remy. I only emphasised the bonus in that last post to reinforce that a bonus is not a limitation. It may be in the case of units like the Viking and Siege Tank, which deal double damage against Light and Armoured units, respectively, but the Reaper only deals about five damage to begin with, at the moment, and aren't likely to have a 100% bonus against workers, so in its case, it is a bonus because hardly any compensation is required so its base damage will remain relatively untouched and any impact that it may have on it would probably be more or less insignificant and the Reaper would just have its refined base damage rounded back to its original base damage. A 100% damage bonus against half the units in the game for an already powerful attack may have an impact on a units base damage, but a ~20-30% damage bonus against a single unit type in the game for a relatively weak attack wouldn't. It would be able to retain its normal base damage making it just as effective against both Light and Armoured units, while being an even more effective raider.

I never said that the word 'limit' meant 'useless' any more than you did. I've said that it's not as though such a bonus would make them useless, because it wouldn't. It wouldn't even necessarily make them less useful, as their base damage would not be hindered as much as if they had a bonus against all Light units, so would still be viable against both Light and Armoured units, and even more effective at raiding.

You're assuming that the penalty due to the Reaper's bonus against workers will equal the penalty due to their bonus against all Light units, which is not the case. If it has a bonus against all Light units the penalty to its base damage would be greater, making it less useful against Armoured units and buildings, than if it has a bonus against workers, making it just as effective against Light units as it is against Armoured units and buildings and vice versa.

 

And why can't this small amount of bonus damage be applied against all Light units? What is it about giving a small damage bonus VS workers only that makes the Reaper "just as effective against Light units as it is against Armored units," yet it can't be applied to Light units as well?

In the Reaper's case, since it has crappy base damage, "just as effective" really just means not very effective all around. Even with a small damage bonus, when applied to all Light units, you are at least bringing something to the table when Light units are in question. It is everything you are suggesting, with the whole "just as effective" thing, yet, with the added small damage bonus to Light units. You fail to make a convincing point as to why the damage bonus should be restricted to workers only, especially if it's such a small bonus.

Your last paragraph also contradicts your own point of how "bonus" can not be "limiting." If all we're doing is just adding bonuses, how can the Reaper be less useful against Armored units and buildings? It will be just as useful as it always has been, except that it will be even more useful against all Light units. After all, bonuses can not be limitations right?

I also do not assume that the penalty/bonus on workers will equal to that of the penalty/bonus VS Light units, it is the mechanic that is in question, not the value. In fact, it seems to be you who assumes the opposite by saying "A 100% damage bonus against half the units in the game for an already powerful attack may have an impact on a units base damage, but a ~20-30% damage bonus against a single unit type in the game for a relatively weak attack wouldn't." Who's to say you can't have the Reaper deal 20~30% bonus VS all Light units?

If you do wish to see the Reaper useful outside of raiding, as you're "just as effective" comments seemingly indicate, there is absolutely no reason why the Reaper's bonus damage can not be applied to units other than workers. What do you accomplish by doing so? The answer can range from "basically nothing" to "over-specializing a unit to render it useless elsewhere" depending on exactly what you do with it, but quite simply, I just can see no good coming from it.

If you must feed some kind of obsession where you must have workers as separate unit types, then it would at least be better to make Reapers deal bonus damage vs Light except workers. That way you can at least raise the Reaper's base damage to deal with workers, keep the bonus to apply only to combat units, and trade for some functionality by specialization(ineffective VS Armored).

 

The reason that I feel the damage bonus shouldn't be applied to all Light units is because the Terran have enough for that already. Just as Banelings are given a bonus against buildings, Siege Tanks are given a bonus against Armoured units, etc, the Reaper should be given a bonus to workers. Why? It suits their roles. All of their roles. The Baneling is Anti-Building, the Siege Tank is Anti-Armoured and the Reaper is basically Anti-Worker. However these bonuses do not limit any of the unit's capabilities. The Baneling is still useful against units, the Siege Tank is still effective against Light units and the Reaper would still be suited to open combat.

The Reaper's damage isn't actually that crappy. It may not deal much per attack, but they attack very quickly, so 'just as effective' does not actually mean 'not very effective all around'. It would only be like that if Blizzard chose for its attack to be like that, which they won't as they don't design units with the intention of them being near useless.

My last paragraph, although it says that base damage may have to suffer, does not actually contradict my point about bonuses not being limiting. I said that it would be less useful against Armoured units if it had a bonus against Light units, but I never said that they'd be limited to attacking Light units. Being less useful does not mean it's limited to attacking the other unit type. Siege Tanks are less useful against Light units than they are against Armoured unit, but does that mean they're limited to attacking Armoured units? Of course not. The same thing goes for the Reaper if it had/has a bonus against Light units. Its attack would be less useful against Armoured units than they are against Light units, but does that mean they'd be limited to attacking Light units? Of course not.

In your original post, you did assume that the base damages would be the same, or at the very least, you implied it, either intentionally or unintentionally. Read over it again and you'll hopefully see what I mean.

You only talk about a bonus or no bonus. There's no factoring in of the impact that removing the bonus to Light units would have on the Reaper's base damage. If its bonus is being removed from half the unit types (Light) in the game that it had previously, and added to a single unit type (workers), then its base damage would obviously be scaled up, and with its fast attack, a minor increase, which is all it would get, can add up to a fairly significant 'bonus' (not literally a physical bonus but a bonus to its base attack) especially when attacking targets with large pools of health, like buildings, etc, which are usually Armoured units anyway. Basically, removing the Light bonus and adding a worker bonus would raise the Reaper's base damage, making it less effective against Light units, but still a viable option, but more effective against Armoured units, especially considering that such a small bonus to base damage would add up to a significant amount of extra damage. The Reaper's attack would not be useless against Light units and it would not be an Armoured unit/building demolisher, but it would be fairly well rounded for open combat and effective for raiding.

Basically, the Reaper would have a decent normal attack, similar to Marines, which have a decent attack and attack speed, Zerglings, which have a small attack but fast attack speed, and Zealots, which have a large attack, but slower attack speed. Neither Marines, Zerglings or Zealots have any bonuses, yet they are still very effective and damaging units, despite all having different attack speeds. The same would go for the Reaper. It wouldn't have any bonuses to Light or Armoured units, but would deal decent damage per second, regardless of attack speed. It would then be given a slight bonus against workers. Being such a specific unit type and also being a relatively small bonus, this shouldn't have too much of an impact on their base damage, unlike a bonus against Light units would have as it would be that same bonus but against about half the Ground units in the game. So basically, there you have it. Decent damage against both Light and Armoured units, with a bonus against workers to make its raids quicker.

The reason it would need this bonus would be, as I just said, to make raids as quick as possible. You may argue that the bonus against Light units would make raids just as quick, but this is not necessarily the case. The reason for this is that the workers aren't the Reaper's only targets when on such raids. They are also after key structures. They have D8 Charges to deal most of the damage, but that will not always be enough. If they cripple a building but do not destroy it, not having their base damage hindered by a bonus against Light units could prove a valuable asset. If any SCV's start trying to repair it, they can still be taken down just as quickly, what with the bonus to workers, and can then resume quickly finishing off the building, what with the improved base damage. They'd still be a viable unit for open combat, but would excel further when raiding.

Having a bonus against workers isn't actually all that strange or abstract. It's not like having a bonus against Nullifiers or Lurker Eggs. Workers are pretty common units. Wherever there's a base, there're workers. It's just like having a bonus against buildings, which is only really usable in similar situations, only you're focusing on a different part of the base. Buildings are a subset of Armoured just as workers are a subset of Light. It may be easier for most units to get top and attack buildings, but that's why the Reapers have their jetpacks. Workers are practically everywhere buildings are, so a bonus to workers isn't actually some abstract or bizarre type of bonus. It's logical and suits the Reaper.

Having workers as a separate unit type is not only very easily doable, but has practically already been done. There are already tonnes of unit classifications so it's not as though it's hard to program nor is it as though Blizzard is hesitant on using them. Not only are there Light and Armoured units, which cover everything in the game, but there are also Fleshy, Biological, Mechanical, Hover, Robotic, Vehicle, Energy, Building and Small, Medium and Large, as well as Ground and Air. Obviously not all of these are created for the sake of having attack bonuses, but they're modifiers none the less. They're all for different purposes, Ground and Air for targeting, Light, Armoured, Building and Biological for damage bonuses, Biological and Mechanical for restrictions on abilities, etc. It wouldn't be hard to make another classification, it's definitely not as though they'd need to give tonnes of units this classification, and it's not even as though it's for a ridiculous reason, as damage bonuses already exist. Secondly, Workers, or at least Drones, practically already have their own classification, as Drones are rallied differently to all other Zerg units.

Summing up, Reapers would still be viable for open combat. Their base damage would be increased as a result of them no longer having a bonus against all Light units. This increase could prove vital for finishing off buildings that have been crippled by D8 Charges. Having a bonus against workers would not be a bizarre bonus as they're just a subset of Light just as buildings are a subset of Armoured. Workers are also numerous and found in roughly all the same places as buildings. Blizzard is obviously not shy of modifiers, and implementing one for workers would not be too difficult. There are already examples of workers being treated differently, like the Drone rallying separately to all other Zerg units.

 

Last time i check this was a thor thread lol.. its amazing how a few arguments can lead to long discussion entirely debating about something else...

 

yeh i know, i hope a mod moves all these reaper and marauder discussions to there respective threads



Can we please talk Thor people