New Thor Thread

I brought them up because saying that Anti-Light and Anti-Armoured units overlap is just about as logical as saying that Anti-Air and Anti-Ground units overlap. In neither case do they overlap because they're all specialised for different tasks. Anti-Light units do not overlap with Anti-Armoured units, just as Anti-Air units do not overlap with Anti-Ground units.

You can go on and on about the differences between the Viking and Reaper because they're different units. I know that and I've said that. However, that does not stop their roles overlapping. I could go on about the differences between the Thor and the Siege Tank, and there would be a fair few because they're obviously different units, but that did not stop Blizzard changing the Thor because it overlapped with the Siege Tank. They were both different units but they still overlapped. The same is happening for the Reaper at the moment.

The Thor was changed because it overlapped with the Siege Tank, or at least most notably with the Siege Tank, as they said they would in Q&A Batch 17;

Reaper Firebats would not fill the role of the Marauder. First off, it wouldn't halt the enemy, it would just make them attack a certain part of your army before the next part. This did not happen with the Marauder as it physically slowed down enemy units, and didn't just divert their fire. Not to mention that Marauders could also fire out of Bunkers to help hold your base's front line of defence, which Reapers wouldn't be able to do.

What is it that you wish to achieve by giving Reapers a bonus against Light units? I'm not asking because I think it's absolutely outrageous and illogical that giving them a bonus would solve anything, I'm just asking to clarify what your intentions are with the unit.

 

The Marauder is less desirable than other solutions to the Terran infantry, because it encourages having Medivac Dropships, which, make Reapers obsolete. The reason is because Terran infantry can't have both the Marauder and the Medic, as it would be OP, especially if the slowing was AoE. After all of Protoss and Zerg's early infantry gets close enough after being slowed, eating a lot more free damage, it would then still be a nightmare trying to kill anything with Medics around healing anything you try to hunt down while being slowed.

Medivac Dropships make the Reapers obsolete because it would make very little sense for Terran players to go out of their way and invest into Reaper tech and Reapers themselves, when you can get better results all around with Marines, since using Medivac Dropships to heal Reapers on raids would mean you can just drop Marines instead due to Medivac Dropships being, well, Dropships. It makes much better sense to just use the generally better Marines while advancing overall tech rather than branching off to the side and invest in some one trick pony that carry little incentive.

Just because the Marauder seem like a good unit when you look at it on its own, doesn't necessarily make it a good unit for the Terran as a whole, on the big picture. The inherent problem with Reapers introduced with the inclusion of Medivac Dropships isn't the only concern. With the unit that's to heal the Terran infantry made available at tier 3, one must question if that really brings anything to the Terran's table that's actually meaningful in any way. The Terran infantry would need to be sufficient without healing to compete with the early infantry of other races, so with the Marauder setup, healing would need to be unneeded early on. However, then at tier 3, what's to make that a necessity? Around that time, you would be faced with Colossi, Siege Tanks, etc. all of which is designed to overpower and counter early infantry anyway. To me, that's a whole bunch of pieces that look OK on paper but doesn't come together well for actual in-game applications.

Hex, you keep arguing that replacing the Marauder with anything else wouldn't work because it would not allow you to slow the enemy. You are missing the point entirely. That line of argument is only relevant under the premises that slowing is needed in the first place or the only way to have a functional Terran infantry is to have slowing. Which is incorrect, since Terran has never had slowing and has done fine for 10 years while practically being the most fragile race. No one here is trying to argue that Flamethrowing Reapers or Medics will slow the enemy better than Marauders, I'm saying take out the early-game slowing entirely. If the whole Terran picture is looking messy with Marauders in it, it's not really an absurd notion to suggest a picture with out them.

I also don't understand Hex or anyone else's infatuation with units that can do just one thing well. Naturally units will be more suited for certain things than others, but to purposely limit a unit to a single role and have that hardwired into the unit's design is not beneficial in any way. It limits strategic freedom and range of actual functionality, nothing else. We don't need every unit to be the SC1 Hydralisk, but to limit a unit's functionality in every other way just so it can be forced to one job is rather ridiculous.

The Flamethrower Reaper to me, looks better than the Marauder or the current Reaper in every way, especially for the Terran as a whole. Since Hex seems to have understanding why the Flamethrower Reapers are beneficial despite all I've said, let me just list it out.

--- It allows the inclusion of the Medic. Terran gets to keep the Heal mechanic which was unique to Terran, and have it around at an in-game timing that is actually meaningful. It would also fix the problem with Reapers being obsolete as the Marine Drop would not overlap with Reaper+Medivac combo.

--- It improves the Reaper's specific functionality as it do its job of raiding mineral lines by dealing quick direct splash damage. So even when there is a small amount of resistance around, the player can still make the call and go for workers.

--- It improves the Reaper's general functionality by allowing it to supplement the Terran infantry in open combat. With meaningful damage output, Reapers can help deal with enemy melee units that are bound to close in on Terran's infantry(Zerglings are too numerous and Zealots with Charge are too fast and too resilient), you get something from having Marines+Reapers+Heal. Current Reaper design is rather useless, with or without Heal around, as you are better off for getting more Marines instead.

--- It gives Terran a form of melee splash, which deals damage to enemy units under Dark Swarm. Disregarding special abilities, Terran currently has no way of dealing damage to a single unit under Dark Swarm. Tank splash doesn't deal damage VS a single unit, Flamethrower does. And with the fact that Zerg Filers being tier 2 now, it would only help that the Terran has one more source of damage VS Zerg Dark Swarm.

--- If in fact the current Reaper has bonus damage VS Light units, Flamethrower attack only helps to further distinguish the Reaper GtG from the Viking, short ranged melee splash VS long ranged single target.

--- According to the tech tree that we know to be current as of 03-11, the Viking is tier 3. Just because the Viking ground attack has damage VS Light, doesn't mean it's the Terran anti-infantry solution. It comes too late, and is single target. The Viking's anti-Light focus on the ground has very little meaning for Terran early-game. People are looking at Viking's bonus damage VS Light on paper and immediately checking off the anti-infantry check box on Terran's list, this is rather silly. For early game, and more importantly, against timing rushes, Terran is still without a clear solution. Of course, Flamethrower Reapers would help with that as well.

Now, that's the benefits of Flamethrower Reapers. I'm curious as to why they're NOT a good idea. Other than the arbitrary "they're only supposed to do this."

 

nah i rather have the marauder than the reaper.

im sure the marauder have some similarities with the enemy meech in the recent iron man movie. but the marauderr would still look better but less of human like movements. with that, lorewise, i prefer the terran to get something like that instead.

i just dont like dual pistols for the reapers.

this is not warhammer were humans are enhance and fantasy sci fi badass to carry pistols or jengo fet with his dual laser pistols.

duals pistols is dumb in the first place. dual pistols for the reapers is not badass its mediocre. its good for warhammer not starcraft.

give the reaper an electric reaping kind of attack... or flamethrowers. but not just an ordinary kind of flamthrower.

the marauder and reaper should stay in the game. no need to cut one of them.

@remy

if you want to cut the marauder just because you want the slow ability for the thor, i dont think thats a good reason at all. many fans would disagree if the thor will just become a tanker support unit. the thor should be an attack assault unit as well as a tanker. and losing a cool unit like the marauder just because its ability does not fit is wrong.

 

You totally missed his point. That saddens me, the flamethrower Reapers makes a lot of sense, its similar to my 'shotgun' idea and makes a unit which benifits the Terran in the areas they are imbalanced in, that being fighting Zealots, Zerglings, Roaches etc.
Of course if the flamethrower Reaper was to be brought in the Jackal would have to go and I'd be happy with that.

Zeratul, what makes the Marauder so cool, you seem to look at things on a visual level before gameplay and balance.

Basically the Marauder has only one use and that use can be very easily countered for example, you have some Marauders and Marines, the same amount as you'd have MM in sc1, then a bunch of Zerglings come at you from all directions. In no way can the slowing ability help as if you try to dance your Marines they'd end up being weaker due to no Medic healing them and they'd run into more Zerglings anyway. Its pretty obvious I just don't know how no one sees it.

 

Thoughts on Marauder

I think that if you allow zerglings to attack you from all directions that you let the zerg out maneveur you and deserve to lose the fight. I think that there will be many interesting strategies for the marauder. For example, if you are defending a choke point and you use the marauders to slow units as they try getting up the choke it would be devestating to the enemies attack. None of the units would be able to reach the marines before they die.

I think that if you do have selection of multiple buildings that the addition of units that encourage micro such as the marauder would be a welcome addition.

 

Where else would the Marines and Marauders go when out numbered by enough Zerglings to surround them?
They'd have to stim pack to get away but then they have less hitpoints meaning easier targets, and the absence of early Medics emphasizes their vulnrability.

Where will you find choke points mid-game when your army is in the middle of the map?

What use will a Marauder be when Stalkers are blinking everywhere and you have a Colossus or two ripping up your Marines while some Immortals eat up your tanks...

 

It has been said that the Marauder can't stim btw.

 

Oh rofl, that makes the unit even worse. I'd go for Jackals over Marauders anyday, atleast that way I can deal lethal damage while forcing the player to break formation meaning a better advantage for me either way as if the player doesn't the units will get caught up in the splash.
That is called passive slowing down (inadvertivly(sp?) slowing the movement of the incoming force), the Marauder simply dumbs down the slowing concept.

 

the marauder is anti heavy armor as well.

i say give the marauder two weapons, both fires simultaneously depending on the type enemies. the grenade is for tanks, ultra, etc. the shotgun is use for the swarm enemie units.

 

It only has a +4 vs armored so that equals to 10 damage for armored, it wouldn't be wise to pit Marauders against tanks since tanks have like twice the range and a much stronger attack.

 

Thats the Reapers


last time i heard anyway, may of changed

 

What I was saying in my post before is try to get in a position where the zerglings can not flank you (one example was defending a ramp). It does not matter if they have 100 zerglings, if they can not get up the ramp before they die, they are not going to surround you. Lets say that it takes .25 second for a zergling to get up the ramp, but with the marauder firing at it the zerglings takes .5 second to get up the ramp. You effectively have twice the time to fire on the enemy before they make it up the ramp.

I was not saying the marauder appears to be a great meet an army face on unit, but that it will have some great uses. Another I can think of is using them to slow banelings so they can be killed before they explode. I am excited to see how they play in the release.

 

Marauder might help in holding a ramp, but Terran had always been able to do that just as well by slapping down some Supply Depots, Bunker(s), and lift-able buildings. It isn't something new to the Terran's table that the Marauder brought. You must not even assume that even hits par, as it may not.

In the scenario given, the Zerg player could just rally large numbers of Zerglings outside of the Terran player's ramp. Save for the worst players, Zerg would not throw wave after wave of Zerglings at a ramp that they just could not touch, let alone punch through. That only happens in the Terran's dream scenario, endlessly killing for free. However, in reality, the Zerg doesn't even need to confront your ramp to gain an advantage. The Zerg player can just sit back and camp outside your ramp, effectively containing the Terran player and gaining map control, which, in most cases where skill is equal, means a high probability of winning.

In days past, the Terran player could try to push out with the help of Medics and Firebats, what do you have now? Can you really say that Marauders will definitely save you from the Zerglings ready to swarm up on you? Even if you do try to go head on with Zerg, the Zerg player can just keep withdrawing to waste your Marines' HP everytime you Stim. Marauder might be a sweet deal when looked at on its own, but it sure makes an ugly Terran picture..

I'm banking on the possibility that these "many fans" you talked about, would ultimately be much happier that it has actual in-game functionality, and a unique one that benefits Terran like nobody's business at that. Blue beam red beam isn't functionality, isn't a role, is hardly even lore, it's merely graphical detail.

And no, I do not want to cut the Marauder just to give Thor slow. My personal desire for the Marauder to be cut came long before that, or I would've made such suggestions in the first post of this thread. Wanting to cut the Marauder came from me taking a look at Terran after some time away from these forums, and decided that what I saw of Terran as a whole was a crappy mess, even if individual pieces worked on a conceptual level.

 

Sorry about the delay. When I was originally replying I stumbled across the information on Infestation and Broodlings so got sidetracked and then fell out of the loop for a bit. Anyway, back on track.

Marauders and Medics would only be overpowered if the Marauder slowed all enemies down to an exceptionally slow speed and the Medic healed exceptionally fast. They've just got to find a balance. If the slowing effect is nerfed, then the healing can be increased, and if the healing is nerfed, then the slowing effect can be increased. In my opinion, it should be the healing that's nerfed. If healing is nerfed, the Terran would still be able to get back to full strength between battles, and the shield upgrade that gives Marines an additional fifteen health would mean that Medics don't have to physically heal as fast, as the Marines can last longer on their own, allowing more time for healing. Meanwhile the Marauder's slowing effect could be as potent as possible, which would give the Marines as long as possible before they get into melee combat, giving the Medic even more time to heal them, unless the attack force purely consists of melee units which it most likely wouldn't. If it was the other way around and the Medics had great healing while the Marauders didn't slow down to enemy too much, yes the Marauders wouldn't need to be as slowing as the Medics could heal faster, but they'd hardly be needed. Medics would still be useful between battles and would also have their other abilities, while the Marauder would only be effective during battles, and wouldn't be as effective during them anyway.

About Medivac Dropships making Reapers obsolete, I have to disagree. Reapers would still be needed for their D8 Charges as Marines would take a lot longer to take down buildings, etc. They could still both be used for raids, Marines would be more sustained, while Reapers would have much greater burst damage. When ranting about the Medivac to my brother, he actually came up with a pretty good idea. We all remember that Medics could heal units from inside Bunkers, right? What if Medics could heal from inside Dropships? It would allow them to keep up with Reaper and heal them from the skies on raids, and would also allow them to be used as normal Medics are, as a Tier 1 healer. It would solve both the early healing problem and the healing Reapers problem.

About me saying that replacing Marauders with anything wouldn't work, etc, the same applies to every line of argument. Any suggestion or current method will be obsolete if that problem doesn't exist in the first place. If there isn't a need to slow, then there's no need for Marauders. If there isn't a need for Reapers to have flamethrowers, then there's no need to change them. It can be applied to anything and completely defeats the purpose of almost any current method or suggestion.

About your points on how flamethrowers would improve the Reapers, I'll go through it roughly point by point.

As I suggested earlier this post, there may be a way to fix the healing problems without having to resort to Medivac Dropships. Flamethrowers are not needed to bring back the Medic. If it can be changed slightly to be used in ways in which it couldn't before, then there's no need for it to be axed or for the Medivac to be introduced.

Flamethrowers don't necessarily improve the Reaper's specific functionality as non-flamethrower Reapers would still be able to choose to go for the workers or not. Flamethrower Reapers wouldn't be able to continue onto the workers in all situations, just like the regular Reaper so giving them flamethrowers won't just magically allow them to make the call to go for the workers, as that all depends on their stats like health, damage, etc, that can be changed regardless of whether they are given an area of effect attack or not.

Not all units are needed to supplement their army's force in open combat, especially with Terran. They have more special ops units, like the Ghost and Reaper, who are more designed for specific situations other than open warfare. Reapers are still able to throw their D8 Charges into the midst of the enemy's force and escape relatively quickly which would either break up their army, divert their fire and focus to microing, or blast a fairly large hole in their ranks. Either way, having a flamethrower Reaper doesn't really add anything to the Terran arsenal as far as open combat goes as the Marauder would be removed as well.

In order to solve the Dark Swarm problem, Terran don't need to have a Tier 1 unit that deals melee area of effect damage as the Infester doesn't come until later. In my opinion, in order to solve it the Banshee should be given its area of effect attack back. Marauders and Siege Tanks would deal damage to units surrounding their target, meaning that they're still capable of dealing damage to units within the Dark Swarm, but Banshee would be able to do exactly what you're intending for the flamethrower Reapers to do. Besides, doesn't the Jackal deal melee area of effect damage anyway?

The area of effect damage would differentiate the Reaper and the Viking, but there's not need to if they don't overlap too much in the first place. If the Reaper is not given a bonus against Light units in the first place, but instead is given a bonus against worker units, then it would be different enough, depending on how much base and bonus they'd have.

The Viking doesn't come too late to be an Anti-Infantry fighter, as all units are going to be needed throughout the entire game. Besides, not all high tier units are Armoured units, so there would still be enough for the Viking to focus on.

Let me know what you all think of the healing from Dropships idea. In my opinion it seems fairly solid but then again I may have overlooked some major aspect.

 

i like the idea of a medic healing from a dropship makes alot of sense to me, that way you can have a medic anywhere you need one

you can either have that or you can merge a medic into a dropship to make a medivac dropship, you know at extra cost (but that doesnt sound all that right to me)



yeh your idea is better




But anyway has anyone heard anything new about the Thor, you know since it is a thor topic i think we have gotten a little off track, seriously heard anything???

 

Flamethrowing Reapers has nothing to do with the Medivacs, thats a whole 'nother discussion, its to bring more dynamics and usefulness by filling in a weakened spot in the infantry line. And its related to the Marauder pretty much being a poor unit.

The point isn't to limit them only going for workers, the fact that the main outlook on the Reaper seems pretty linear the flamethrower allows it to fill another gap being melee and balance Dark swarm. We don't want the Reaper to be only useful vs workers as that is not dynamic and starcraft is all about dynamics.
You know how Firebats worked well in quite a few situations and how they could be used in conjunction with Medics, and with added skill could be used in very smart ways, like blocking the enemies path so they cannot reach them yet at the same time they're getting healed and can fire at the enemy force.

The Marauder has only one role, to slow down enemies, we have pointed out why the Marauder just wouldn't cut it, they flame throwing Reaper could do a similar job as the Marauder except it does it passivly due to the attributes of it's attack instead of it blindly stated, 'this unit is only good to slow down Zealots even though they will still charge and decimate your army'.
The Reaper on the other hand has that availability to fill that role since its agile and doesn't require stims to micro effectivly meaning Medics are not a nessesity which equals up to more freedom finalizing in dyanmics.

If the Banshee had AoE they units underneath still wouldn't recieve 100% damage as the AoE is reduced from the normal attack, and again that limits the Terran from relying on one unit to be only used in that situation which is a chess board, he dark swarms, I used banshees, he uses hydralisks, I attack with marines, he attacks with zerglings, I bring the marauder to slow them, that fails and gg.
Also the fire for the Jackal was just a placeholder, their real attack is a projectile so that rules out the melee, plus its range is too long for it to be classed as melee anyway.

I could have sworn you was saying how the Reaper and Viking overlap, I was gonna say this stops any overlap. And what is the point of limiting them to attacking only workers; the fact they deal light bonus only highlights the need for dynamics as workers are light armored.

as for the Medic healing in the Dropship, I think thats a pretty cool idea as Terran are about adapting to situations and I can see many uses for this. The good thing is we get to keep the original Medics and they are further improved with the availabilty to be anywhere which is something the Medics lacked in Sc1, and this being Sc2 it had to be improved and I think this is the way.
As it balances its self out since you'd need one Dropship for every Medic you wan't airborn so it isn't majorly overpowered or imbalanced since its all equaled out in cost and time.
I am for that idea.

 

Letting Medics heal from inside Dropships is not a bad idea, however, it doesn't really change anything. The problem with Medivac Dropships is because of the very fact that you would require Dropships in the first place in order to heal the Reapers. Where you have Dropships, you can just go full Marine drop, hence, the Reapers are obsolete. In any other case, you wouldn't really need to have Medics heal from Dropships, as Medics can serve as mini meatshields drawing fire away from Marines or be used as blockades.

I really disagree that D8 would completely overturn that whole problem either. If I'm not mistaken, D8 is basically 60 damage per mine to buildings. That's only 10 shots from a Marine, and with StimPack, that's not a very long time. However, the difference is, D8 is just that one shot and you're done, as you'd have to deal with D8 cooldown. With Marines, you can quickly mop up workers, damage buildings, and also deal with any light resistance from the enemy if present. With D8, even if you deal damage to enemy buildings, if you don't take any of them down you might not do any harm to the enemy. They throw down some static D, and that might be the last of your Reaper activity. Marines taking down workers and then dealing some additional damage to buildings would yield a much better result in hurting the enemy's econ.

Also, there is no need to make workers a specific armor type. You are asking for a mechanic that does not exist in the game just to justify the existence of one unit, at the same time you are introducing over-specialization. Currently, any unit that has bonus VS Light can be used to harass workers, it allows more strategic freedom and variability, bonus VS workers is not a good idea.

Flamethrowers add functionality beyond just the scope of econ raids. It certainly improves on that aspect as you would be able to get quick results by killing workers quickly, so even if there is some resistance from the enemy, you can still get good results while taking some hits on your Reapers. But the important thing is, Flamethrowers make Reapers generally more useful, moving away from over-specialization and allowing more strategic freedom and possibilities. It also naturally make the Reapers become fully functional units without the need to have Heal present on raids.

You said that Vikings are not too late in dealing with enemy infantry, but that's incorrect. Against timing rushes, Vikings would not help at all, as Vikings attack VS single targets. Don't think a "bonus damage to Light" tag on paper automatically makes something a solution in-game, it doesn't work that way. The Jackal would work, but I believe the Jackal is one of the worst design decisions, and I've explained it all in the Jackal thread so I won't do it here. With Flamethrowers, you would be packing that into an existing(and quite lacking) unit and making it generally more useful. Making AoE melee available to Terran at lower tech would also help, since DarkSwarm is tier 2 now. Against a Zerg player who speed techs to DarkSwarm, the Jackal might be a little late as well. If the Zerg player spaces out units as such that the distance is just beyond that of a Siege Tank's splash radius then Terran has no way of dealing damage to the DarkSwarmed units beyond spells, since Siege Tanks can not damage single units under DarkSwarm.

I just don't understand what's the point in bending Terran all out of shape just to give the Marauder a justified existence, especially when slapping Flamethrowers on existing Reapers make things work better all around. I also don't really see Medics and Marauders coexisting, I just really can't see Blizzard going through with it. To make it work and both Medic and Marauder functional, it is too easy to be OP. On the other hand, the closer you get to "balance" with both Medic's Heal and Marauder's Slow, the closer you get to not even needing the Marauder at all. And at the end of the day, you're still left with an obsolete Reaper. All in all, the Marauder is looking pretty thin as far as I can see.

 

Agreed with everything especially the Marauder statement. From the beginning I knew it wouldn't cut it.

 

i agree with remy on the Marauder, its role is yes a very cool role but it only works so a sertant point. I dont see how this unit can live out in an all shooting army with no forms of healing but a freaking DROP SHIP..... the murauder's slow effect can stop sertant units but it having its role as a slow-me-down attacker is to narrow minded and might even be used incorrectly be the average player. I can see the marauder being spammed and easly tanken down once some one get larget units.

However i wont agree with you on the jackal, being that this units is a pritty big unit when it comes to splash i will be spamming this until i can reach BCs with plasma torpedos for dark swarm

Now back to the reaper, i do this this unit staying over the marauder. Throwing its D8 chages during a fight is going to force an enemy to
1. push forward out of the way
2. back up out of the way.
this is a unit forcing a person to act and i like this even if its 30 dmg to light armored or 60 to heavy. even if they do move, moving means your not attacking and not attacking means your just running in fear. I guess marauders only are good vs melee or slowing down incoming attacks that want your tanks gone but even then its not going to work. I would rather have mines thrown everywhere then slowing some one down. Now if you do some sick combonation of slowing, minethrowing and stims this would be hell on earth for the enemy. theres nothing they could do to stop an all out terran assult if this is the case. i see it this way your potions would be vary limited.

if you try to run the marauder will slow you down, and the mines thrown by the reaper might blow up in that time and get you anyways + mirines will be shooting the hole time.

if you send melee in it wont reach MM&R in time before taking to much dmg

if your going range vs range and its mostly early game units i'll go with the terran assult force. cause if you have more stims then anything else and he wants to stand still and fight you, give him an early chistmas gift. (a nicly packed d8 charge)

the only flaw i see in the MM&R combo is a LONG range bombardment such as tanks, guardians, carriers, ect. or GOD like micro and nice clicking when your fighting range vs MM&R. You'll need to target and kill the D* chargers before you lose your men and even then trying to stop and focus on that small D8 charge (might) take away focus that needs to be else where.

I like the current set up but just the fact that you need such a late tier unit to heal is annoying. if thats the case why not keep medics in but have them require something realy late in the game?

 

I also think Reapers can fulfill that role of the Marauder; throwing mines in the correct location will slow down and break up formations and the good thing about it, the more effort you put into it the greater result.
The Marauder only offers one thing no matter how hard you try.