New Thor Thread

I did read your post Hex. But read over this last post of yours over again. Does the wording not sound confusing to you? I sure does to me. I thought I understood what you meant, but perhaps I still don't. The part where I clarified on unit vs unit of measurement/distance is to clarify on what I(me, Remy) said before, because I read over what I wrote myself, and that particular detail seemed like it could be confusing.

Seeing as to how most of my replies are all addressed to you(not just in this thread either, seems to be the case these days LOL), I think I would've need to have read your posts in order to do so. Not really a whole lot of people fully involved in discussions these days it seem. Well, anyway...

I just read over your three posts where you mentioned splash reduction once again, and it all still sounds like how I've orignially understood you Hex. I'm still not where I wasn't before. We're having some kind of miscommunication/misunderstanding. I'm gonna try go get on the same boat as you, but work with me. Like, give me examples with theortical numbers or something. Xs and Ys, especially as placeholder variables, aren't really doing it to make things any less confusing.

Let's try to clarify things some more, here I go. In SC, splash damage IS reduced full damage. No splash damage in SC other than spells and AoE melee deal equal damage to any unit as the main hit when it's any distance away from the center of the AoE. So even the units that are adjacent to the main target, will receive only about 50% of the main hit, it gets even weaker as it moves out farther. Thus, all true splash in SC IS reduced full damage. So you can't specify reduced splash damage VS reduced full damage(which I still find the wording to be extremely confusing), because one is based off of the other.

I think you are trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not so sure now, is to make the Thor receive less and less splash damage from your own Siege Tanks the farther away it is positioned from the Siege Tanks primary target(enemy). Please first clarify if or if not that is indeed what you were saying, and let's take it from there.

 

So would the whole splash be nullified or would it just not damage the Thor?
Because there could be benifits when using sieged tanks to shoot your own Thor. For example:
You're expensive Thor is getting raped by Dark Templars and you have no detection. Simple solution is to target your Thor as it can absorb that damage but the DTs will die. But if you're saying you want the splash damage to completly 'dissappear' then I am in no way for that idea. Although, thinking about it has put me on the train of thought to accept the anti-splash idea as it makes sense. The same way lowering your depots makes sense.
Plus can see where you are coming from balance-wise. But if I decided to bring up the fact the Thor is a unit and buildings can still get splashed I could come up with an argument saying it doesn't make sense physics-wise. But then you could fix that problem and say the Thor is fitted with some kinda anti-splash armor.

 

Remy the Thor isn't supposed to be invincible. It SHOULD be killed if you try to rush a line of 8 tanks. That's when you bring in Banshees or do a drop. The Thor moves so slow that it would be dead against siege tanks before it got close even if it had 75% damage resistance.

Besides the idea is not to make it more resilient against enemy tanks; it is to make it survive the barrage of your own tanks

 

Ok, I'll reword and clarify my suggestion, and I guess it wouldn't have helped for me to have made a mistake in my original post.
Anyway, here it is. Say that there are three Armoured units (as in troops), Unit A, Unit B and Unit C standing in a line with a metre gap between each, like so:

[ A ] [ B ] [ C ]

Just for this example let's keep it simple and say that for every metre between the unit and the targeted location, the splash damage is reduced by 50. This means that because Unit A takes the full 100 damage (100 because it's an Armoured target) because it is 0 metres away from the targeted location, Unit B takes 50 damage because it's 1 metre away from the targeted location and Unit C takes 0 damage because it's 2 metres away from the targeted location.
That's for normal splash damage. The splashed damage is a reduced amount of the normal damage. For the Thor, it would take a reduced amount of the splash damage, so if it was in Unit B's position, like so:

[ A ] [ THOR ] [ C ]

Unit A takes 100 damage again, but instead of the Thor taking the usual 50 damage that Unit B would have taken, the splash damage for the Thor is reduced by a further 25 per metre, so it would only take 25 damage. Unit C still takes no damage.
If the Thor was in Unit A's position, like so:

[ THOR ] [ B ] [ C ]

The Thor still takes 100 damage. It is 0 metres away from the targeted location meaning that the damage is neither reduced by the normal splash reduction nor the Thor's own splash reduction. Unit B takes 50 damage and Unit C is against unharmed.

Using this method, unless players are stupid enough to directly target their own Thors, they will take less damage from your own Siege Tanks without nullifying enemy Siege Tanks, as they will still deal full damage. Lastly, one thing I excluded from this example is the size of each unit. In reality, if the Thor was targeted, surrounding units would probably be outside of the splash radius and unharmed. I did this to try and keep the example as simple as possible. Also, these numbers are are all completely made up, apart from the Siege Tank's damage, and were again given to just simplify the example.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Hex. I think I understand now, I hope LOL. So you're saying give the Thor a specific mechanic in which indirect splash damage is reduce further after the initial splash damage reduction from the main attack. I'm fairly certain that's what you're trying to say. If so, yes, that would effectively solve the Tank fire splash damage problem, since you are directly offering a fix amount of damage reduction equal to(more or less) how much you would get from percentage based damage mitigation.

However, that isn't the end of the Thor's problem with damage mitigation. How would the Thor be against high damage attacks? BoP, I'm not trying to make the Thor invincible in anyway. But if it's to act and function as the Terran frontline meat shield(which Terran never had, and never have had to worry about), it will still need to survive long enough to function. This is the Thor, it's extremely high tech, and very expensive. You will probably only have a couple around. This isn't like Zerg where you can charge the frontlines with waves and waves of units, or like Zealots that have Charge and a relatively high resilience. Zerg at least will have DS to keep things manageable, your 2 or 3 Thors on the other hand, will be eating raw damage from everything.

Even with a 20% damage reduction, a Thor would still be eating a whopping 80 damage on every hit from enemy Tanks. To get that kind of damage reduction with regular armor, which still leaves a fat amount for the Thor to eat, it would need to have 20, twice the amount on a Zerg egg/larva. Let me tell you how many units would deal ZERO damage vs Thor in that situation based on SC1 stats: Zergling, Hydralisk, Lurker, Mutalisk, Guardian, Ultralisk, Broodling, Marine, Firebat, Vulture, Goliath, Wraith, Ghost, Zealot, Dragoon, Scout, Carrier, Arbiter, and of course, all workers. Even with some damage reduction you still risk near-instantly losing your Thor to enemy Tanks and effectively flush your fat wad of resources down the toilet. There is not even the need to talk about anything like using abilities, loading units, or whatever else.

BoP, 8 Tanks for a Terran player isn't even a ridiculously high number. You are getting THORS after all, think about the situation where that would even be possible in the first place. You WILL face at least 8 Tanks if not more, it's just textbook, simple as that. If the Thor isn't to charge forward at the frontlines soaking up damage while dealing its own, then why would we even need it? That would really go against wanting the Thor to be a frontline unit for the Terran. It wouldn't even be able to maneuver away from abilities like Psionic Storm in the first place, then what good is that Thor?

 

Yeah, that's what I've been saying, or at least trying to say, haha. I don't think being that vulnerable to Siege Tanks is that much of an issue, and there are other ways around it, Bombardment could be one of them. If Bombardment is able to out-range Siege Tanks, then with a bit of effort they could be taken out before they're even a threat. Using Scanner Sweep and Bombardment, Cloaked Banshees (I guess there is some benefit to its single target attack) possibly backed up by a Bombardment and Battlecruisers with Yamato Cannons would be able to take out many Siege Tanks before the battle starts. Also keep in mind that there won't be as many Siege Tanks in StarCraft2 as there were in StarCraft1because they've said that they will be more powerful, more durable and more expensive. There will still be a lot of them, but they will be easier to cull. But yeah, before each fight the attacking player would have to find where the Siege Tanks are located, and take them out as quickly as possible. As you've always said, "Reconnaissance, Analysis, Strategy, Tactics...... Victory."

Also, I don't think eight Siege Tank shots is that bad. That's eight hundred damage you've saved the rest of your army from taking. If you hadn't had that Thor, then it could have been four of your Siege Tanks that died instead of one Thor. Also, another tank, being the Ultralisk, would only be able to survive six Siege Tank shots, and they have even less ways to cope with it. They may be a swarming army, but Ultralisks are still expensive so it would still be a significant loss for them.

Lastly, I'm not sure if the Defensive Matrix ability works in the same way as it did in StarCraft1, but if it does it would be another great option to increase your Thor's survivability.

 

Is Defensive Matrix still in? Holy crap! Then everything's all good and rosy. BTW, just to point out to all you haters out there, the last I heard of Defensive Matrix(which was a long time ago), it is PERCENTAGE based damage reduction, 50%. Read it and weep, LOL. But anyway, now we can forget everything, the Thor will tank just fine, booyah!

A few things though Hex. I think anything having greater range than siege mode Tank range would be too much, and quite easily boarder OP. Siege mode range was already the longest in the game in SC1, nothing could even see as far. And last I heard, siege mode range is even longer now in SC2, so going beyond that IMO is going quite a bit overboard. Sieging tanks already make it hard enough for the enemy, I don't think our fat boy Thor bombarding people from unreachable distances would be very balanced. I could already think up a few scenarios where that would be abusable.

Another thing is, Ultras will not likely die to 6 hits of Tank fire. Other than in the hands of massers, Ultras will be charging under Dark Swarms. Meaning, most 100 damage shots won't even hit Ultras, it will probably be generally 50 or less. And if I'm not mistaken, we get Filers at tier 2 this time. Also, in SC1 1 Ultra = 2 Mutas in cost, 100%. But yea, that is still not chump change for us. My point is just that it's not fair or realistic to compare Ultras to Thors looking at just stats. But since you say Defensive Matrix is still in, that evens the playing field.

 

Haha, damn. I liked how it worked in StarCraft1, basically adding hundreds of health and where all attacking that were absorbed by the shield dealt one damage to the unit. Also, I just read that the Defensive Matrix covers an area now, not just a single unit. It reduces all damage dealt to that area by 50%, including enemies. That could pose a problem when trying to protect your Thor from melee units or units in melee range. Barrage should still have enough firepower to take them out, but if it doesn't get it or it's on its cooldown, then that could be a little problematic. Anyone know whether the Defensive Matrix still takes a set number of damage or is it on a timer now that it's an area of effect and percentage based ability.

Having a longer ranged Bombardment was just a thought, but even if it had the exact same range of a Siege Tank, it would be able to Bombard it without being hit due to its area of effect. It would just need to fire a bit in front of the Siege Tank and the splash would do the rest. Anyway, it would just a suggestion. Even without Bombardment they'd still be able to use Banshees, Battlecruisers or other units to do their dirty work and take out the Siege Tanks before starting the battle.

Forgot about Dark Swarm. Still works in the same way as the original I trust? Also they're from the Infestors now, Defilers are long gone. They'll be sorely missed... Especially their model.

 

I hope the model to further reduce splash is put in place, as it would hopefully reduce friendly fire deaths to the thor. Also i think that the bombardment ability should be short range but have a large blast effect, that could take out a whole swarm or group siege tanks; that is if the the thor can survive. That way the thor could deal with large groups of units, especially with defensive matrix used in conjunction.

 

uhmm i think the thors bombardment should rather be changed as an anti-air bombardment coz weve got enuff fire power downtown like crucio, plasma, banshee, nuke..... no more plz ^_^ seems kind of redundant to have another mobile bombardment unit

 

no the thor imo fits better if its an exclusive ground assault unit. about the redundancy, i say change the banshee's role.....or
s c r a p it.

 

Yea lets turn the Banshee into a super powered energy ship with plasma ray guns. It can shift into other units and take their traits.

 

no just change the role.... attack etc. the driller missiles...or cold missiles.. electric missile... emp shockwaves missiles. lol

 

well then you agree a bit about function redundancy ryt?? well i wouldnt want the banshee to be changed coz its mid tier unit suitable for raids and compared to the late bombardment of the thor you get the same function but with difficulty of deploying it....

 

The Siege Tank deals extremely concentrated damage in a very small area and are designed for taking out vehicles and buildings, so it doesn't really overlap with the others. Nuke requires to much setting up and cannot be used in the midst of a battle so it doesn't overlap. The Banshee, despite now not having an area of effect attack, was more adept at taking out infantry, so it doesn't overlap. If anything should go then it's the Battlecruiser's Plasma Torpedoes. Apart from being a Terran Psionic Storm an ability like that is much better suited to the Thor.

 

lolz marvel thor?? = god of thunder

since its the future maybe terrans ill be able to control weather storms... thats possible but perhaps the real problem is its name.... hmmmm

 

that sounds more like a protoss ability, the terran are more about big simple abilities, like yamato or bombard.

 

yup thats true.... its just that the thors bombardment skill is simply redundant for me

 

I had a little trouble understanding your idea for the bombardment attack, but what I think you are saying is that it should be like some kind of "shotgun cannon" where it shoots a bunch of explosives in a fan shaped line. If thats what you meant than I agree with you and think that would be a perfect ability for the thor.

 

Why can't you just fan out some Marines and Tanks?