New Thor Thread

well ive been told, lol

 

Yeah I do understand. Looking back over the stats I've reread that Siege Tanks deal about a hundred damage to Armoured targets. Whether playing against Terran or not, the player will have to limit, or have limited, the amount of Siege Tank fire that his or her Thor is taking. I don't imagine that the Thor will be as effective or used against Terran as it would against Zerg or Protoss because enemy Siege Tanks will be a huge problem and they don't really have as much need for a meat-shield against them anyway because neither team have any melee units, but that's not to say that meat-shields are useless against ranged attackers. Anyway, I was mainly just thinking out loud then and drifted off topic a bit. The point is, yes, it would still need a way to defend itself from friendly Siege Tank fire, but I don't think that taking a percentage of each attack is the way to do it. Perhaps it could take reduced splash damage, so it would take the full damage when targeted directly, but if it's the unit in front that are being targeted then it takes the x less than the full damage, with x increasing the further away the Thor is from the target. Anyway, just an idea.
By the way, how come some units that deal splash damage, like the Siege Tank, deal damage to friendly units but others, like the Baneling, don't? It seems like it would be a difficult thing to balance properly and there aren't apparent reasons for whether it injures friendly units or not.

 

That's exactly the reason why: balance. Causing all units to take splash damage, ally or not, is going to make some units (namely the baneling) useless, as their attacks would destroy their own units. On the other hand, taking away splash damage for allied units would cause some OP for obvious reasons.

 

That's actually how splash damage has always worked in StarCraft Hex. AFAIK, all splash damage is reduced as you move out from the initial blast radius. The exact amount of reduction is based on the main hit and how many pixels away from the center other targets are. This is true for all attacks that deal splash damage. There are things that people think are splash but are not, such as Lurkers for example. Lurkers are AoE melee, so the splash calc doesn't apply.

As you've mentioned, there are more than one type of splash. There is generally universal splash and allied splash. Universal splash damages everything, while allied splash do not damage your own units but damage your allies. Reavers for example, deal allied splash damage. Contrary to what you think, it isn't a random thing, and are for very apparent reasons, which is balance. Not only is it not a difficult thing to balance, the very reason such classifications exist is because of it.

If Lurkers and Banelings dealt universal damage, they would be completely useless units. It is the exact reason why Infest Terrans were crap in SC1, even if you manage to get them. Zerg's answer to anything ground is micro, micro of the proper mix of units. You swarm the enemy force in an coordinated effort. If Lurkers and Banelings started to damage your own Zerg units, there is very little left for the enemy to do, you'd be wiping yourself out.

Tanks are a different story. If you line up units approximately the size of Marines, the main target takes full damage, the second adjacent units takes about half of that, the third one down takes about half of the second, the fourth one takes no damage. However, that is just one tank. In real games, Siege Tank splash damage is so significant that, after the initial attack type vs unit size damage reduction, splash radius reduction, AND freaking Dark Swarm cutting out the initial hits altogether, Zerg still sometimes can not get anywhere against Terran on the ground without resorting to Ultras.

But another important thing to consider is that the Siege Tank is a TERRAN unit. It might have been different if it was a Zerg unit, but because it's the "Terran" Siege Tank, it has a minimum range(dead zone) and universal splash. Terran has ranged attacks up the yin yang, you never have to worry about your own melee units taking Tank fire damage, because you would never be sending any to the frontlines anyway. Also, without minimum range and universal splash, a Terran player could just scatter Siege Tanks all over the place on open ground, which would be pure hell for the opponent. With a dead zone and universal splash, Terran players at least have to put a little bit of thought into unit arrangement. Korean pro gamers still generally consider Terran to be the best race in SC1, imagine if Tanks didn't have such limitations.

It is with splash damage reduction considered that I have suggested percentage armor for the Thor. If we do some simple theoretical calc, the problem instantly becomes apparent. If SC2 reduces splash damage similarly to SC1, which I have no reason to believe why it would not at this point(other than distance being calculated based on pixels), then anytime a Siege Tank fires its 100 damage at any melee target attacking the Thor, the Thor would take about 50 damage. With every 4 Tanks that you have, that's 200 damage, but what Terran player only has 4 Tanks late-game? If you have 16 Siege Tanks, you could instantly take out a 800 HP Thor. Not to mention the battle doesn't end right there. That is an ass load of damage just from your OWN Siege Tanks.

The numbers I threw around are of course highly theoretical, and we'll surely see some changes and stat tweaks, but it's still not at all unreasonable for getting my point across. I know are other small detail I left out for simplicity's sake, such as base armor leaving Thor a tiny bit of HP even when hit by splash from 16 Tanks. But that's quite beside the point. I hope people start to see why I was very concern over this, because we only talked about damage from your own Siege Tanks. That's on top of whatever else the enemy throws at you.

Percentage armor ONLY for the Thor is the best thing I can think of for now. I understand why people do not like percentage armor, but I hope everyone who is eager for the Thor to regain its former glory and want it to become a functional Terran meat shield start to really understand the severity of the problem.

EDIT: Guess I took a little too long typing up my reply. Sorry, Wlck742, your post wasn't in when I started. Didn't mean to reiterate what you said.

 

Sorry, my bad. I meant the Thor could have a reduced splash damage, not reduced full damage. I know I said x less than the full damage, but that was a mistake. The reduced splash damage would be something like if a normal unit were to take z damage because it's standing y units (as in units of measurement, not units as in troops) away from the targeted location then the Thor would take z - x damage when standing y units away. Basically it takes less splash damage, meaning that it won't take as much damage from your own Siege Tanks, but takes full targeted damage, meaning that it will still take full damage from enemy Siege Tanks. Again, sorry about the confusion.
About the universal and allied splash, thanks for the explanation. Before I read that I didn't realise the full impact that universal or allied splash would have on the functionality of a unit. Before I felt it would be such a hard thing to balance properly and that there didn't seem to be any lore behind it or anything. I obviously didn't think it was just random, like flipping a coin for each unit that deal splash damage, but didn't understand why.

 

I think that ItzaHexGor's idea of reduced splash damage is a better way to go, than Remy's %armour value. Personally I dano't have too much of a problem with %armour, it's just that this would make the thor too good against powerful siege attacks, like the siege tanks. I don't think that should be the case, which is why I support ItzaHexGor's idea more. With your idea Hex, the thor probably won't be killed my its own tanks and, will be able to absorbed lots of damage from small arms fire and the like. I think this keeps the thor more in role with being a anti-zerg/protoss unit, rather than an all around super meat shield.

 

Ummm, are you folks just skipping over my posts and just acting like you read 'em? That is already how splash works in StarCraft, Hex and CF.

With the way splash damage has always worked, the Thor(or any other unit) will take full damage from the enemy(because it's the main target) and take reduced damage the further away it is from the primary target(enemy melee units attack your Thor for example). It is with such reduction in place, that damage from your own Tank fire is a problem.

The Thor will always take the highest amount of splash damage from your own Tanks when it comes from targeting enemy melee units that are attacking the Thor, because even with splash damage diminishing over distance, the Thor is the ADJACENT target to the main target. Just because the farthest part of Thor's fat body is a mile away does not matter, its close part(the part the enemy melee unit is clawing at) is ZERO distance away.

Also, another thing is, the distance of splash AoE can not be based on number units away. When I explained using "marine sized units" earlier, it was only so that people can easily understand the distance being referred to, because I have no way of measuring pixels. The reason why splash reduction can't be based on number of units away, is because not all units are the same size. Splash AoE on packed Zerglings will be puny while Splash AoE on Ultras or Thors will be too large. Which is why it has never worked that way, and IMO probably never will. Splash AoE, although invisible and never directly inidcated visually, has always remained constant.

So you see, the FIX suggested by Hex is not a solution, because it has already always been the case, whether people were aware of it or not. And it is after being fully aware of the existence of splash reduction over distance, that I propose the percent armor. While it's fair that people dislike percent calc in SC, however, things like percentage based misses(whiffed attack) when attacking units on high ground or percentage based evasion when standing under trees or bushes have already existed in SC. To dismiss a likely solution just because it involves the word "percentage" without providing an equally practical alternative is not entirely fair.

 

come remy, you know me well enough to know that I ALWAYS read the long post. Also my understanding of Hex's idea is that the thor would recieve less damage than normal, even when it is zero distance away from the blast. That may not have been your idea ItzaHexGor but IMO that would should be put in place for the thor only

 

The old Thor is simply one of those units you can march into the thick of battle or an enemies base. The Thor will always be valuable since it can absorb that deadly fire power and deliver that back.

Thor doesn't need no crazy armour abilities or super rockets. Keep it simple and original to the game.
No one has responded to my idea of letting you load a certain number of infantry inside the Thor and for balance reasons their abilities could not be used while inside the Thor cuz as Itza pointed out, nuke would be unstoppable.
I see this as the perfect way to make the Thor a correct unit.
Like I said before this lets you respond directly to situations with the choice of units giving us full control.

 

Ummm....I responed by saying that maybe the thor could carry up to ten units, which I now think should be reduced to six.
Also all this talk about armour and stuff is so the thor doesn't die too easily from you own fire.

 

So you guys are saying that basically you are fine with 8 of your own Siege Tanks killing your own Thor in about 2 rounds of fire? Or 16~17 Tanks one-shotting your Thor?

What good is it, dealing damage, soaking damage, carrying units, or whatever else, if having 16~17 Tanks around(which is nothing crazy) means you might one-shot your own Thor? All this after splash damage reduction.

 

But why does every situation have to have the Thor and Tanks. The only thing that would cause that kinda situation is Zealots and Zerglings. Very much doubt Ultralisks as they do better with groups. Also don't forget tanks have assult mode for a reason, and this is that reason.

 

The Thor should keep the back canons for its special attack. And it whould lift up and off too.

The fact that the Thor should take some units with him will unbalance the game. Plus if the units could use their special abilities inside a Thor is greatly unbalanced.

Can a Thor be locked by a Ghost ? It is a too heavy unit to be locked It's like a structure, and ghosts can't lock the structures down.

There are several abilities that some units can't use against the Thor because of its size. A Queen (as I know in SC, not the newest one) can't launch a melee against a Thor because of its size.

It is like using special abilities against structures. It is impossible ! So the devs must give the particularities of the Terran structures to the Thor. A Thor has the particularities of a structure, not a unit.

To balance that maybe a Thor should be just able to attack the enemy structues, not the units. Maybe it can attack the units just in using its special attack.

 

Just make the Thor immune to splash damage. Then your tanks won't hurt it but it can be destroyed by other units like direct hits by tanks or banelings hitting it

 

Looks like someone didn't read my post. I clearly said earlier do not let them use abilities.
A big no to the lift ability. Its a huge ground unit, need not say anymore...
The Thor does not need big special abilities...
And why would my idea imbalance the game, when you make a statement like that you're supposed to give reason.

@The Queen going against a Thor, thats just stupid. Why would you risk your Queen fighting a unit which it couldn't beat?

@Armour. I'm sure the Thor would have a big armour point anyway, look how big it would be, so I really doubt splash is that much of a worry, I know I'd rather target smaller grouped units with a splash attack instead of the big Thor.
And like I said, if you want to use tanks and a Thor simple put them in assult mode. But I see what you're saying with your tanks hitting it as the Thor would be up in the defense taking damage and you'd siege the tanks behind it.

 

If the Thor can load some units so why would we use the drop pod. or why would we use the dropship , they are useles so. I think it is too easy to load a Big unit with some units. they can be a sort of escort for the Thor. A thor, in "reality", can't attack alone, and must be protected by some units. An escort.

Indeed loading the Thor with an escort is a good idea, but the enemy will be crushed easily, and the game will be unbalnced. It will be worse if we can use the abilities os the loaded units inside a Thor against the enemy.

Why not a lift ability. It would be great. A Thor is a moving structure according to me, not a big moving unit And should keep the specifications of a Terran structure, not a unit one. So, normally, if a Thor is really "wounded", I mean in the red zone, it must lose its health points little by little, like a terran structure. So with this disadvantage we must add an advantage : the fact that the Thor can lift up and off like the Terran structures.

Added to all that the Thor, which is a structure not a unit, must not subish the special abilities (like lockdown, mental control, etc ...) from a unit.

About the big canons in its back ? Why should they be cut ? They are great ! They can devastate everything.

PS : if the corruptor can infest every terran structures to create infested marines according to my reasonment the Thor can be infested and create infested marines. Nooo of course. The devs must specify if yes or no some units and structures can be infested or not.

 

IMO the Thor doesn't need splash damage reduction any more than marines do. It's the player's job to make sure your units aren't caught in the splash. If it even takes reduced splash damage it still takes away from the skill you need as a player to manage tanks effectively. While the Thor is a much stronger and more expensive unit than the marine, the same principles apply. You have take care with positioning and focus fire of the units, which can take considerable micro.

And as for transport, they could always make it loadable into a dropship. It'll look silly and unrealistic, but it's possibly the only solution. Two tanks side by side are about equal in width, so it could just be one Thor per dropship.

 

Drop pods and Drop ships are to reinforce your troops or do raids. Units in the Thor would serve a new function being whatever you can think up.

I'd rather the Thor not be loadable if its in the big version again. Just make it salvagable if you find it a must to transport quickly.

 

Suggesting that you don't have to always account for Tanks as a Terran when you have Thor is neither realistic nor practical. Terran WILL have Siege Tanks, and LOTS of them.

Unsieging your Tanks is not an answer, because it would not work, and it breaks the Siege Tank. Are you gonna unsiege your Tanks when Zerg oppents send over their huge swarms of Ultra+Ling+Banelings all under Dark Swarm? You will die, I gurantee you. And Zerg is guranteed to have all of that by the time you get Thors. Even against Protoss, it would mean just by having Thors around, you effective neuter your own Siege Tanks and take away the very reason why you even have Tanks in the first place. VS Protoss, Terran doesn't have a the kind of leisure where you can just drop you firepower significantly and still stand the same chance. I don't know why people think there is some way to just leave Siege Tank splash out of the picture.

Having complete immunity to all splash damage would be an answer to Tank fire splash coming from you own Tanks. However, that would also be an exception to the rule just like percentage armor. But if you're gonna give Thor a mechanic that is an exception only for the Thor, percentage armor is still better when considering overall functionality if the Thor is to play the role of damage soaker. Even with splash immunity a 800 HP Thor would be one-shotted by 8~9 enemy Siege Tanks, one shot. The same kind of deal from anything else that deals high single hit damage. But if you were to raise its base armor(flat numeric) to where it even stands a chance at being functional for a few seconds, it would make the Thor completely OP to most other units.

Percentage armor is still the simplest way to go about it as far as I can see. A flat percentage damage mitigation, you take much less from big hits and big splashes, yet you only drop damage from other units by a smaller amount.

Lift-off or an equally effective alternative is a must if the Thor is to be SCV-built, it is as simple as that. Some people have suggested salvage as an alternative, ever since lift-off was brought up way back. I've never liked salvage to begin with, but talking to Jon, he told me salvage was completely useless atm, and based on his explanation I would agree. If huge ass Terran buildings can lif-off, fly around, and land else where, with amazing speed I might add, it is nothing strange that the Thor could have boosters and such. This is Thor we're talking about, the epitome of Terran technology. It's silly to want to build and unbuild Thors every couple minutes like it was a picknick basket.

@ Samir, AFAIK, there is no Lockdown in SC2.

 

I find it extremely hypocritical that you're saying that when you obviously haven't read mine.
You responded by saying:

When I'd said:

Splash damage is reduced full damage, reduced splash damage is reduced splash damage. Splash damage doesn't work as reduced splash damage, it works as reduced full damage.
You also then went on about being a certain number of 'units' away:

When I'd clearly said this, as well as further explaining the reduced splash damage:

Unit of measurement, not units as in troops. I can hardly even begin to explain how basic that is. Metres, centimetres, inches, pixels, yards, kilometres, miles, furlongs, etc, are all units of measurement.
I further explained how the reduced splash damage would work. If an ordinary units takes z damage because it's y metres, centimetres, inches, pixels, yards, kilometres, miles or furlongs (i.e. units of measurement) away from the targeted location, then the Thor would take z - x damage. It takes reduced splash damage. If the rate of reduction when calculating splash damage is y=2/x then it's y=1/x for the Thor. If it's calculated by taking away z damage per unit of measurement away from the target, then it's the full damage - z - x for the Thor. Etc.
I hope you're beginning to understand.