New Colossus Attack

Seriously just make it more expensive and give it more survivability thats all i meen there are still tons of counters for it just tweek it a bit when it comes to stats health and damage and its good to go.

 

lol... if you watch some community matches EVERYTHING counters it. it will need more than just a tweek.

 

Only because people are unable to use it right. If it were truly unbalanced, they wouldn't have nerfed it from the 450-450-20 version. I find it very doubtful that the nerfing was because it was able to achieve critical mass and thus become overpowered, for massing an expensive unit that has a narrow range of targets would not be a very effective strategy.

 

I think taking on a fraction of its cost in units that it's designed to counter should be considered as using it right. The fact that it can't take them on means it seriously sucks.

And you don't have to purely mass a unit to mass a unit. If you're massing a unit and it gets exponentially stronger the more you build, then it needs to be nerfed, regardless of whether it can only attack Ground targets or not.

 

No, it just means that you aren't using it right. Not every unit is a straightforward beatstick.

I it simply impossible for me to believe that a Protoss player could ever mass a sufficient number of Colossi for critical mass to take effect, AND have adequate AA. Assuming that they aren't simply wiped out early while they are building their immensely expensive force, if the enemy is doing a remotely decent job of scouting, they will focus their resources on building an air force. The air force could cost a fraction of what the Colossi cost, and still probably be enough to defeat any AA covering the Colossi before wrecking the Colossi themselves.

So stop throwing the critical mass argument already. It is not a viable option, and any Protoss player who went for it would lose regardless of whether or not the Colossi was 450-450-20 or 500-350-16

 

I meen look for example the stalker a units that doesn't cost that much but would be masses versus the colossus which should be really strong and cost a good amount of resources especially since its protoss (their disigned to have heavy costing less numbered units).

It supposed to be big strong and menacing, costly, ect
just look at the ultralisk, mothership, and battle cruiser.

 

I think carriers had critical mass partly because they stacked quite well and could hit exactly the same unit from exactly the same place while making focused fire against them a burden. Make collision detection in SC2 flexible and adjustable for every unit and I think we solve the problem with the colossus.

Zerglings and other small units would obviously have next to zero "padding" but if large units had more, and the colossus and other critical mass-suspicious units even more than that then there is no way to use focused fire with them. It would also eliminate the ability to hold them tightly packed, hence the outer ones could be picked off even by ground units without fearing that the whole group retaliates instantly - because they'd first need to close in on your units before engaging them. In other words, more numbers would not increase efficiency exponentially because the group members would be spread out, making them relatively more vulnerable than, say, a group of marines, which can move in close clusters and attack almost instantly.

Obviously this also has a certain limit - visually it would not look right if the units had plenty of space between them and yet they wouldn't be able to move any closer, but since attack range is a perfect circle around the unit (unlike the square in SC1), in this case the colossus would need to do quite a bit of travelling to get in range due not only to the excessive "padding" on its fellow group members, but the sheer size of them. So I'm saying this "padding" doesn't need to reach an absurd (and visually displeasing) value before it can balance out the colossus.

 

Maybe the colossus needs some other kind of attack all together I know they where trying to copy war of the worlds.

 

This would be the biggest rip off of War of the Worlds with the focused beam attack xD

Would look awsome if it could turn marines and lings to dust

 

You're absolutely right. For example, the Colossus has a wide variety of flaws that limit its use to a few fairly specific situations, none of which seem to make use of its ability to hike, which is therefore wasted.

You're still assuming that it has to be massed, and in huge numbers, to achieve critical mass. Just eight Colossi would have been able to one-shot any Ground unit in the game, barring the large ones, like Archons, Queens, which they'd be able to two-shot, and Immortals, Ultralisks, Thors and other Colossi, which aren't far behind.

That's just eight Colossi, and they can take out almost any Ground unit in the game instantly, and you're still saying they don't get exponentially stronger? Yes, it's still expensive, but not cripplingly so.

Oh, and if your opponent finds out what you're massing then good for them. That's the risk of massing. Regardless, Colossus would not be the hardest units to hide, and if you could speed mass them if you're smart enough to build more Robotics Facilities, granted you have the minerals. After all, you only need eight.

 

Most of the posts on this thread haven't even been about the attack, but the unit in general. This is currently the de facto "Colossus" thread.

 

Maybe they should make the colossus have a different type of attack or to do something else like i said before this kind of unit costs too much and has too many counters for it to have that weak and frail beam attack that has to be useful in multi groups.

Yes I agree the colossus has to be massed but that's the complete opposite way we want this unit to go in.

Lets see if you have 8 they are still vulnerable to air attack, cost a vast number of resources, and time to get out in those greater number of units even 8 would have a really hard time taking out an player regardless because they cost

2400 minerals 1600 gas so for that cost a player could come at him with tons of zerglings, roaches, hydras (these things would tear a colossus to peices), corruptors (cheap yet very strong especially against the colossus) and maybe a ultra (would spell doom with lings and hydras) lurkers (spells doom)

for the terran side marines (fast attack first to go but not that big of a deal) , mauraders (will tear them up) viking (air mode to completely annihilate this unit), a banshees (also would tear it up), thor (would chew them up and spit them out like nothing a 10 range attack would dominate it)

even worse if your opponents playing protoss (ya the shield boost but most protoss have more heath to compensate.

 

The ability to hike is intrinsically useful. Just because a unit doesn't like to raid enemies doesn't mean it can't get good use out of hiking, for purposes of defense, offense, and mobility.

First, what makes you presume that the 8 Colossi will all be able to hit the same group of units? Lets say they encountered 40 Zealots. My guess is that while each Colossi would hit 6-12 of them, they wouldn't be the same 6-12.

Second, 4000 resources is a lot to spend on units that have no ability to deal with air whatsoever, and need protection from cloakers/spellcasters/tier 3 ground tanks as well.

In short, the Colossi's inability to stack and inability to focus fire severely hampers their supposed ability to critical mass, unless they are deployed in such numbers that your force would become crippling overspecialized and be slaughtered.

They are still effective in combat, indeed, they were apparently too effective in the 450-450-20 version, but they were not able to abuse critical mass.

For that matter, why don't you start shrieking about the Siege Tank, cost less, but need smaller numbers to one hit most units? Why aren't they broken critical mass units?

Only 8? That is 4000 resources, put into units which are according to you useless until you have them all built. What do you do during the period when you have a 4000 resource shortfall?

 

RIght now the colossus is just a big expensive hit and run unit that can't even do that well.

 

The Colossus's role is specifically "heavy support". The Colossus is not, and will never be, a giant Reaper. Where the Reaper uses its ledge jumping primarily for offense, the Colossus will use it to get to defensive positions rapidly, very useful for a fragile unit with a long range.

Granted, The Colossus is only slightly weaker than a Carrier with regards to toughness.

I vote giving the Colossus 3 Defense, and making its 8 damage bonus be against light rather than shielded units. Then stop whining.

 

Defence doesn't require the ability to hike. You don't need to physically be able to walk up the cliff or whatever in order to gain that advantage. In normal situations, offence, as you've said, requires backup. If the units backing it up cannot hike there's little use for it being able to hike. As for mobility, well that is the ability to hike in itself, so isn't something that makes hiking useful. Overall, the ability to hike should be given to an independent unit, not a dependent one.

Given their siege range and assuming that the Protoss player has some basic knowledge of how to control their units, the Colossus would be able to wipe out large groups of Zealots each round of attack. It doesn't mean that there won't be some Zealots that just get hit by one, but the majority will be hit by enough to down them instantly.

It's been known to happen. Ever heard of massing Zerglings? Quite effective if you can catch them off guard, though you'd need to spend more than four thousand if you're looking to win.

About not being able to attack Air, if you had any kind of a brain stem when massing Colossus you'd build a few Phoenixes or other Anti-Air fighters, as well. Also, if you've been cautious while massing them, your opponent won't have a particularly significant air force to throw at you.

Their upgraded range makes up for being unable to stack, and the ability to focus fire lies with the player, not the unit. You don't need to develop them in massive numbers for them to work like that, as if you did, most of them would be out of range anyway. Eight would work fine.

Seeing as one on its own is completely useless, and that eight are able to destroy almost anything in a single shot, I'm failing to see how you think it didn't achieve critical mass. Seriously, you'd said so yourself earlier, so why not just accept the fact that it is?

Because I didn't think I had to explain to you that the Siege Tank and Colossus are two completely different units. I thought you'd've been able to figure it out for yourself, especially seeing what you come up with when trying to prove something isn't.

You really have never tried a massing tactic, haven't you?

 

The ability to quickly retreat to an area the enemy can't access is very useful, especially when you also significantly outrange said enemy.

Assuming that we are being charitable and assume that the Colossus do the full 24 damage, it still takes them 7 hits to kill a Zealot. I find it doubtful that many Zealots will get hit by the full set of beams.

The difference being that Zerglings are Tier 1 units that are available from the start, useful from the start, and have greater HP than Resource cost. Furthermore, you hardly need that many Zerglings to pull off a successful win, if done at the right time.

If you can do all that at once, you should have already won.

8 IS massive numbers when your unit cost 500 resources apiece.

Siege Tanks are useful on their own, don't need as many to 1 shot most units, and are a bit cheaper as well, but you still insist that they aren't critical mass units, and that they are balanced.

So? That doesn't change the aspects where they are similar, IE that the Siege Tank does the same critical mass tricks as the Colossi, only much more so.

Explain to me how it would work, how you would survive during the period in which you have a 4000 resource shortfall.

 

Perhaps, but it's not enough of a reason to give the ability to hike to the Colossus. The ability to hike should always be given to independent units, which the Colossus originally was, but isn't any more.

Well you've really taken a turn around here. What happened to saying that Colossus would be able to hit just as many units while attacking perpendicular to its best angle of attack because of the splash damage it deals? Now you're acting as though they'd only hit one, like the pixel at the centre of an asterisk. You've seriously turned around on this one.

Hardly need that many? You need a heck of a lot more than four thousand minerals worth, and it's hard to conceal you've got that many Zerglings for that long.

If you can build eight Colossi and hide them, and build a few Phoenixes you should have already won? Woah, you've got low expectations.

Dude, it's four thousand. Yes, it's a lot, but it's hardly crippling. Besides, what you're acquiring is worth so much more, what with the critical mass and everything, so your bang for your buck is huge.

Siege Tanks also can't move and have a blind spot in the context you're talking in, so, no, they're not useful on their own. That's probably why they reduce moveability for it, as oppose to granting it more.

The same critical mass tricks as the Colossus? If by that you mean it has long range and splash, then yes, but you're forgetting healing and low damage with a high rate of fire.

Prepare for it. Build some basic but sturdy defences. Build a couple of Robotics Facilities. Build two and you'll only have to wait for the duration of four Colossi being built. Build three and you'll only have to wait for three to be built. Build four and you'll only have to wait for two. Then build some Phoenixes or whatnot. It doesn't have to be anything major, as they're not actually preparing to take on eight Colossi. If you're attacked, you can defend with your Phoenixes and Colossi, depending on how ready you are, as well.

 

The hiking ability is what makes the Colossus capable of functioning independently at all. It doesn't need a meatshield if it can just grab a ledge and bombard enemy units from maximum range.

No I haven't. I said that I found it doubtful that many of the Zealots, will, in a given volley, be hit by 7 or 8 of the beams. Each of the beams will still hit 6-12 of them. If you order the Colossi to focus fire on a zealot in the center of the circular group, you will probably kill a few in the center, critically wound those around them, and lightly wound those at the edges. If your Colossi lack significant backup, the enemy will specifically micro those units to minimize the Colossi's effectiveness, something they would be unable to do if they were fighting a conventional battle at the same time, for as they move their units to stymie the Colossi's fire, they'd just get nailed by all the regular Protoss units.

You would only need 20-40, and you attack early with them. Massing Zerglings late game would be foolish unless the enemy was retarded enough to not bring any AOE against the ZERG.

If you can defend successfully against a significantly superior force with higher tier units, then yes, you've already won. Halfway through your production, I would just rush your base with Zealots(produced earlier) and Warp Rays(produced when you started making Colossi). The Zealots would take the damage while the Warp Rays take out the base defenses, airforce, and Colossi. If all else fails, they can easily kill the Colossi

I don't see how that changes anything. Differences aside, the Siege Tanks are capable of achieving this Critical Mass effect just fine, even if they have a slow rate of fire, no movement, and no healing, their sheer damage(50-100) and range(13) make up for it.

 

If that's what makes an independent unit, then we're all in trouble. You've said yourself it's used incorrectly when it doesn't have any backup, and being able to be taken down by a fraction of its cost in units that it's designed to counter is anything but independent.

Dude, you were the one going on about how when attacking perpendicularly to its best angle of attack it would still hit the same number of units, therefore meaning it has a fairly significant depth the the area of its line attack, and now you're going on about how you'll only kill a few Zealots in the centre. Which one is it? Does its area of effect have decent depth or doesn't it? All of your Colossi would be able to attack, what with the nine range an' all, and they wouldn't be particularly spread out, what with there only being eight of them, so how can you say that only a few Zealots would die each round? All attacks are pretty much covering the same ground. Also, I recall you saying that ten Colossi could take on an infinite amount of Zerglings, so if the ones on the edges are only getting hit by a couple of shots, and the Zerglings can be specially microed against the Colossi, how can you say that they'd be able to? And how can you say the opposite when applying it to Zealot? Granted, they have more health, but that isn't enough to turn the tides.

Oh, and it'd be easy to micro against Colossi in a normal assault front, as they're being attacked by the rest of the Protoss army anyway, so being attacked by said army isn't something that specially applies to when you're microing against the Colossi.

You're more talking about a Zergling rush, not mass Zerglings. Rushes catch your opponent off guard, while masses simply overwhelm them. You cannot overwhelm an opponent with twenty Zerglings. Not unless you catch them off guard. As for area of effect attackers, that's why you need so many Zerglings. No player would naturally build enough to survive massed Zerglings, as their best counters, like Firebats, are easily countered by other Zerg units, like Hydralisks, so it wouldn't be worth the risk of massing. If they do, lucky them, but it's not a likely scenario.

And how would you know I was massing them?

The actual production of the Colossi would not take too long, as you're only building eight, and if it's looking as though you won't be able to pull it off, why would you try to continue?

Zealots can easily be countered by Photon Cannons and Zealots, produced earlier, and I fail to see how you could think the Colossi would just stand there while being attacked by Warp Rays. On top of that, Phoenixes are better against Warp Rays than Warp Rays are against Phoenixes. And on top of that, I'd like to see someone produce enough Warp Rays to down, say, four Colossi before the other four are built.

Overall, all these counter tactics rely on the previous knowledge of massing the Colossi.

Dude, low damage and a high rate of fire is essential for a critical mass unit, so noting that its attack, which deals high damage and a low rate of fire is more of an argument against the Siege Tank being a critical mass unit. It isn't a critical mass unit. It has long range, yes, and deals splash damage, yes, but cannot be healed, or at least not quickly or efficiently, has a slow rate of fire and high damage, and cannot stack. On top of that, it's disabled each time it wants to move or attack, immobilised when it does attack, granted you're using them in Siege Mode because if you're not then you can kiss half of the critical mass attributes goodbye, and has a significant dead zone. Compared to the Colossus, which has slightly less range, much larger area of effect, can heal when out of combat, both quickly and efficiently, low damage and a high rate of fire, is not disabled if it wants to move or attack, is not immobilised when attacking, and has no dead zone. Seriously, think about it.