New Colossus Attack

On top of what Itza said, colossi can be upgraded to have siege range, making them even more potent. While I agree they need to be nerfed in a fashion to reduce their property of critical mass, there is a certain boundary beyond which it's simply nonsense to go - the unit is a tall robot costing almost as much as a nexus... it just can't have 100hp or something like that.

I should've checked its stats before replying but whatever. How much damage does it deal now? But more importantly, how do you know it can't hit moving targets? And what do you refer to with the ineffective hiking ability?

 

well the damage it does is dependant on the enemy

it is 16/enemy and damages enemies in a straight line, so it would be a little silly if it would stay targeting a moving target instead of attacking the line you were trying to hit, but seeing as blizzard apparently wants to add micro and macro desperately, it could well be that you need to change target every shot to do decent damage


i forgot what kind of attack

 

I think Itza is referring to the fact that damage is dealt at the end of the animation, giving units a chance to dodge- especially if they're moving.

There is the possibility that you would have to change target every shot to do a maximum amount of damage, but your opponent also has to dodge every shot to have a chance to avoid damage. As all (relevant) units have to stop moving before attacking, this isn't really a problem.

It sounds like the problem we're experiencing is that you're projecting your idealized vision of what you imagine the unit being onto the actual unit. As far as I can tell, Blizzard never intended the Colossus to be monolithic unit, but a support unit. Even the announcement video had Colossi working in pairs, backing Zealots.

Beyond that, what is wrong with the unit being vulnerable unsupported and alone, when it works just fine in an army? What is wrong with the unit dealing large damage in groups, when considering the fact that it can be effectively countered by air?

 

Exacly and also the fact right now is that its the only units that can be attacked by everything, and not only that but its a big target when it comes to a player attacking it so its not like it dosen't have a ton of counters for someone to take it down easily if not propurly protected and used to enhance a group.

The protoss should have powerfull units in less of a abundace i personally think you should give it back its original attack, the better shield upgrade, its health upped and just make it more expensive like 400 250 or something like that, that's how it was going to be to begin with. zerg = more units less cost, terran = middle ground, protoss = heavier units less of them

I meen look at the Mother ship its a unit that you woulden't want to mass just because of the cost and vulnurbility.

The carrier is stronger and along with the colossus its support but the mothership already has that covered so i really think they need to switch it to a medium cruiser with more flexability with different stats and cost (with interceptors it costs 650 minerals which in my mind dosen't suit it) so its not underpowered and not overpowered to be massed like in SC.

 

That is because Carriers are Carriers, and Colossi are Colossi. Carriers, when they achieve critical mass, become significantly more dangerous. Colossi... don't.

They do not become overpowered in the slightest. Siege Tanks are similarly capable, if not more so, in such numbers, of obliterating ground forces before they can close, usually at a rate exceeding the number of ground forces that can close on them at once.

Actually, the Siege Tanks would still slaughter even a million Zerglings that deal 5000 damage an attack. So no, upping the Zergling's stats does not make them into a critical mass unit, it just makes them overpowered in most combat situations. The Colossus, on the other hand, is a critical mass unit, but is not overpowered in most combat situations.

Your argument is thus:
1. The 450-450-20 Colossus is a critical mass unit.
2. Critical mass units are overpowered
3. The Colossus is overpowered
4. The Colossus must be nerfed to 500-350-16

However, that argument doesn't work in the slightest. A unit being able to achieve critical mass does not make it overpowered, when it can still be countered by a variety of commonly available options. The 5000 damage Zergling, while it CAN be countered, can't be countered by a wide variety of commonly available options, and is thus overpowered.

If the critical mass unit can't win the game on its own, and is highly dependent on other units, then it hardly qualifies as being overpowered by virtue of being a critical mass unit. It still might be too strong and need nerfing, but it is hardly broken.

Except that the Colossi are still worth 0 against aircraft and gain relatively little on ground units like Thors and Ultralisks.

Question. Should Siege Tanks be nerfed? They have the exact same critical massing abilities the Colossi have, except that their stats are even nicer.

I'm sorry, but nowhere have you offered a convincing explanation for the Colossi's value ramping up exponentially when deployed in large numbers. It is still easily countered, and thus needs no nerfing. If it was hard to counter, it would need nerfing, but it doesn't.

I still can only begin to imagine the bizarre mental contortions you have to go through to imagine that ten 450-450-20 Colossi would be an unstoppable war engine, while ten 500-350-16 Colossi would not.

Then it isn't overpowered. Carriers can win you the whole game unless the opponent builds very specific counters. Colossi can't even come close to that.

Your argument here runs counter to everything you've said prior about the Colossi's ability to hit multiple moving targets effectively...

Except that they aren't. Nothing you've said would indicate that. With proper terrain, any unit can defeat any unit that has less range than it. That doesn't make those units overpowered though.

Then you don't use Colossi. They are designed for large scale battles, and the occasional harassment as a bonus, but mainly the large scale battles. I'm just going by what I saw in the yellow vs. sonkie video.

Siege Tanks work better when behind your front lines than ahead of them. Colossi tend to work like that as well. In short, positioning your units properly is a good idea, and hardly qualifies as heavy duty micro, but its exactly what the people in the videos fail to do with the Colossi, to their detriment.

I think you are completely mistaken. I believe that the variance in the Colossi's effectiveness based on micro usage is little different from the Stalkers/Vultures.

I'm sorry, but being a positional unit doesn't mean that you must excessively micro a unit in order for it to be effective.

 

What I can't figure out on this subject is who is for changing the colossus and who thinks its fine the way it is?

 

It's not that anything attacking the Colossus could always dodge its attack as much as in order for the Colossus to physically hit a melee unit, without any other support, it has to be being hit by it. Buy all the range upgrades in the world, it doesn't help if there's a massive attack delay.

I'm fine with it being a support unit, but it should not rely on support itself. It'll obviously work well in those situations, but it shouldn't be required to be in those situations.

The ability to hike, just like the Reaper, enables the unit to be very independent. Reapers are expert raiders, and are not limited to being raiders of the economy, either. They can down structures extremely quickly, buy time to escape, etc, etc, and it all revolves around its ability to hike. Its ability to hike compliments its role and attacks. The idea that Medics needed to be changed because they could not keep up with them was ridiculous, as they're meant to go out and raid on their own. That's the idea of them being able to jump cliffs and other not being able to. Seriously, changing Medics because of that is like strapping an Anti-Air battery to a Zergling's back.

How this relates back to the Colossus is that it, too, is able to hike. It should not require the support of things that are not able to hike in order to be effective. If it does, then it should simply have that ability taken away. It's not independent at all, and its ability to hike does not support, nor it is supported by, its current attack or role. Before, with its old attack, it was very independent. It could raid well, it had a potent and unique pseudo-area of effect attack that wasn't diluted so heavily, and could do some lasting damage in a short amount of time. It still worked well as a support unit, still being able to fire over the front line, could attack from any angle without losing effectiveness, and, more than anything else, it would have been able to take on five Zerglings!

I'm fine with a unit that is vulnerable when unsupported an alone, so long as it works fine with an army, but then, if that were the case, it would have no need to hike, as it would always require the backup. At the moment, the current Colossus needing backup is like the Reaper needing backup. It's ridiculous.

Because that means that they need to be used in groups, and are still ineffective on their own. Not only is it a flawed unit, but that's not what the Protoss are about. Again, having a counter doesn't mean that the unit cannot achieve critical mass.

Seriously, look at what the Colossus is supposed to be, and then look at what it is. It's supposed to be the first Protoss construct that was purely designed for warfare. It was supposed to have single-handedly brought the end to the Kalath Intercession. They were supposed to be so powerful and deadly that the Protoss were shocked with them, and hide them away on distant moons. That's not what the Colossus is. It's a flimsy and diluted unit that either needs an army to support it, or to be massed, in order to be effective.

In my opinion, they need to bring it back up to scratch, making it useful for raiding, etc, again, and giving it a proper use for it to hike cliffs again, or they should simply make it either a Ground or Air unit, with the same line of effect they have now, similar to the original Terran Banshee.

 

I see what you mean now but I can still see potential in the colossus. For example it can see elevations, so most of the time workers would be at a constant threat, without needing the colossus to hike. Secondly hiking can be looked at as a last resort. Say if your raid fails because it's being countered, you can walk off and leave units behind, which would normally want to finish off the expensive unit before returning - the only exception being reapers, but the colossus easily deals with them. However, this latter would need the colossus to be an effective hit&runner, which it isn't and shouldn't be. However, the perpendicular attack goes well with hiking because you can attack much more effectively at chokes by coming from the sides. Then again, who fights at chokes that late in the game where the colossus would come into play.

 

The attack is not perpendicular it is parallel, so while you may be able to come from the sides but you would be hitting a much smaller amount of units.

Come to think of it the hellion would fit more as a cliff jumper.

 

Take away its tallness giving it the ability to climb walls (or you could still keep it doesn't matter) and get hit with ata, make it stronger cost slightly more, give it back its shield upgrade and regular attack and i would say it would make a pretty snazzy unit.

 

the colossus really showed its weakness in the battle report, but im sure blizzard will fix it. ive always thought of the colossus as a base defense, not as a harass. just look at the screenshots at s2.com

 

Its heavy support for both the base and your forces.

 

If you compare it to which direction the unit is heading/facing then its attack is perpendicular, and at chokes where units tend to arrange in orderly lines, coming from the sides would sweep across a lot of units dealing massive damage. Well, if they increase its damage output, that is.

 

The original attack worked effectively ,but i think in order to fill its roll it needs a splash attack, after all it's meant to be the new reaver. Between the two types of attack I would still vote for the original because despite the lack of area in its effect... it wasn't stupid. I see this sweep attack falling on an ineffective angle more often than not, and it being easier to dodge than it is to set up.

I think we should be voting for a third option. Circular splash. I don't really get how this sweep attack is supposed to be better than a circular splash attack... Sweep is more lengthy in one dimension but less in another. So overall circular splash and sweeping both have the same effect but circular is less positional.

I vote for option 3.

 

so currently, the colossus is effective either by being in the back of the army dealing damage against enemies, or by being ahead of the army on choke points, hitting units who run into battle in a single file, orderly fashion....yeah.

 

Do we have recent videos of Colossi with the siege range upgrade? I think that would play a big part in their effectiveness as a support unit.

 

colossus

Think the colossus needs to become a bit more expensive (but not necessarily so) and certainly more efficient or/ and powerful...
the way it was before or a tiny deviation/ improvement of that.
This way it'll certainly won't become a critical-mass unit since it'll become very expensive (more even so than it is now) and risky one to build...(if caught alone by ata...or ambushed/ overwhelmed somehow...
it'll no doubt, be VERY painful for any player to experience, anyway you slice it )
but be very effective against most ground forces and some tactical base-raids...(reaver replacement).
That will also insure that colossus will add and fit perfectly as a new unit in a toss army.
(not to mention it'll at least fit with it's official description

Think it'll be very interesting in terms of gameplay, to see players decide on whether to build it... and have big( but very vulnerable) advantage on the ground or...not build it and...use less risky/ expensive strategies.
I doubt anyone would build more than 10 or 5 even in the entire game (so it won't become critical-mass ,
because building 10 or/ and more, would be considered SUICIDE!!! on the players part...
considering the cost and the delicacy of the colossus especially if it dies.


So to sum it up: colossus = (becomes) Vulnerable YET very potent critical-ground-support unit that requires allot of CARE. In a way it was before. Otherwise it'll lose it's place and practical use in SC2 universe as well as it's great appeal. In a way like Valkyrie, ghost, BC, scout and other less-used units in SC.

However one downside I reckon may be is that it might rival the mothership, cost-wise and VIU-wise ( very important unit)...

TY

 

Surely I deserve minerals for starting such a grand topic containing 13,411 posts and increasing...
As I keep saying, return it's old state and there is no issues.

 

That's true. Well, the part about returning its old attack, not the part about thirteen thousand posts and rising.

 

Ahhh, error. Error. 3rr0r. Automated in the pursuit of accumulating funds I have made a great miscalculation.