New Colossus Attack

There is no delay. After attacking, there is a cooldown before it can attack again. However, that is true for every other ranged unit in the game. Itza and others were claiming that the Colossus had a delay between when it targeted a given rectangular space to attack and when it actually made the attack, meaning that the enemies might simply move out of that space by then. However, no such delay occurs.

That's why you have to be careful

The Siege Tank is also significantly more fragile and less mobile in combat.

That is incorrect. Attempting to achieve critical mass for a unit requires a huge resource investment. For a unit like the Carrier, which is flying, and which does decent damage to the vast majority of units in the game, ground and air alike, this is reasonable. For a unit like the Colossus, it is suicide. Even when massed, it will be effective only against light ground, serve only as a support role against heavy ground, and be entirely useless against air units. For a unit to achieve critical mass, it must be omnipurpose, able to deal with a wide variety of enemies, and only needing a very limited amount of support units, mainly detectors. For similar reasons, no amount of Siege Tanks reaches critical mass. No matter how many you have, they can still be wiped out by a single Mutalisk, even if they can kill a thousand Ultralisks.

Hence, the Colossus wouldn't be nerfed because it could achieve critical mass, because that critical mass can be countered by, among other things, any air unit.

This helps to demonstrate exactly why the Colossus doesn't make a good critical mass unit.

Except that in all the videos we've seen, units tend to form large circular clumps. In the video I remember most recently, that clump had a diameter of about 7 or 8 Stalkers, and it flattened out only to a marginal extent even during a pitched battle. Furthermore, keep in mind that the Colossi used in that video did NOT have the extended Thermal Lances, which increase the AOE of the Colossi attack significantly.

What I meant was that the Colossus is better off fighting 50 zerglings than 5, because it means that its far more likely to hit large quantities of zerglings at once. Also, the Colossus could kill them all easily. All it needs to do is stand on a ledge, or have a minimal ground force in front of it.

2 Colossi and 10 Zealots could hold off 100 Zerglings.

 

i had enough of you two fighting, this is like the fight you had against zeratul11 about weather Ghost would be able to cut through Zerglings with a normal sword and such.

you will all have to agree on not being able to find a middle ground on this subject.

i hereby use my powers to end this argument and let this thread die. *lightning strikes soon followed by thunder*

 

So your defence is that you refuse to listen to the truth? Just tell me one thing. Do you agree with what Karune said about the Hellions and Colossi? And, on top of that, do you believe that they're extremely positional fighters?

To put it simply, units do not fight in circles. Clumps, maybe, depending on how far you're willing to stretch the term, but circles, no.

Also, ever heard of stars?

Nice try, but other units don't miss Zerglings twice before being devoured alive by them in melee combat.

The Colossus' new attack has always had a delay, and seeing as you have some twisted way of viewing things, like thinking melee groups fight in clumps, which completely defeats the purpose of melee units, I'd like to see something physical showing there's no delay.

And that spread, multiple beam, spray attack did have a delay before dealing damage. The only thing that changed was the animation.

Can't fire back when attacking a base? Seriously dude, I've said it before. Stick to your guns. Don't try to twist words. And the only time they'd run back to take on the Colossus would be when they know it's too far away to get back in time. No-one in their right mind, would charge back into the same base they were just attacking like that.

Yeah, and dealing a single damage point across all the units in the entire map would rank in the hundreds, but there's a problem with that. It's completely useless. And having a fast rate of fire hardly matters when you're missing. You might as well be using an Air-to-Air fighter.

Dude, seriously, at least try to follow the one train of thought for over one post. If you haven't made a successful mission, then, believe it or not, and you might want to brace yourself for this because it's a bit of a mindful but true none the less, you haven't made a successful mission.

No, you're just using that as an excuse to cover your arse, and that upgrade should not be a requirement for having capable Colossi. Firstly, it's the situation the Colossus was designed for, and secondly, it shouldn't need the upgrade. And don't pull the ol' Siege Mode card on us, because that enables use for a completely different role, and isn't required to use a Siege Tank. It's required to use the Siege Tank for artillery, yes, but not to use the Siege Tank fullstop.

You mean the one that's Blinking away as we speak? Seriously dude, think about the scenario. If your Stalkers start Blinking back then they're hardly a shield, now, are they? They're more of an array of troops standing haphazardly in front of your Colossi, hoping that whoever's attacking doesn't know how to move sideways.

You said they were a critical mass unit yourself, genius. I even found the quote for you, highlighting again for your convenience:

You mean the Nullifiers that cannot hike? Those same Nullifiers who, in order to be with the Colossi, would have to have not climbed any cliffs? And those very same Nullifiers who would have had to have the Colossi not walking up the cliffs with them by their sides?

Did you even pay attention to what you wrote there? I've just gotta check something here. I've attached an image that I'd like you to take a peak at. Tell me, assuming the yellow circle is the Colossus, and the arrow is the direction it's facing, which of the red areas the attack would travel across. Is it 'A to A', 'B to B', the 'C' area or the 'D' area? Feel free to draw your own, paying close attention to which distance is the longest across the affected area. Also, feel free to add those clumped melee fighters. I'd love to see what that would actually look like.

Firstly, the Colossus trades nothing with the Siege Tank. Secondly, the Siege Tank requires the upgrade for artillery, not to be used in general.

LOL!

"Back to base, Colossus! We've heard reports of FIVE Zerglings in the area!"​

"FIVE ZERGLINGS?!"​

"Affirmative. The area is no longer safe for any Anti-Zergling fighters! All troops to any vital access points to where these FIVE Zerglings were located! I don't want anyone in or out!"​

And yes, I am paying you out. Seriously, five Zerglings taking out a Colossus is like a couple of Supply Depots taking out a Siege Tank, but then again... Why would you be fighting Supply Depots in those numbers with a Siege Tank?

Yes it does. If it didn't, the Colossus would have taken out most of the Zerglings, having attacked three times.

(Three times sixteen is forty-eight. )

 

It cant kill 5 lings, how is it supposed to kill 50? So it would hit more, it wouldnt't kill them in time as shown in the video. 5 lings killed a colossus without any of them dieing, all I'd have to do is wait a minute for all the lings to regain thier life.

As for a minimal ground force, it's called a run-around. I'd split my forces and pass the zeals on both sides to hit the colossus. Plus, lings are disposable, so even if your on a cliff, I'd still keep a few lings around to hold the colossus back til I got roaches, hydras, or mutas in the ares to fight back.

And why do you assume that the zerg player wouldn't have anything besides zerglings? By the time you get a colossus, the zerg player would already have at least a roach den and spire. Not to mention that the colossus is at a major disadvantage near zerg bases as the zerg gain a 30% speed increase, units can reach the colossus before it finished 1 attack.

 

Wodan46 your the only one out of well everyone else that thinks the colossus is good the way it is the only thing i can see it being good at is a expensive scout.

problems
-Its attack is too slow and it doesn't do enough damage
-so far anything can counter it
-attackable by land and air
-expensive and costs alot of people

what it has going for it
-can climb up and down cliffs

just as the immortal is awesome against stronger hitting dudes so should the colossus at taking on smaller weaker dudes

 

wow, for someone who is gramatically handicapped, mister T sure can break arguements good


yes IHG, we already knew you could


isnt this topic getting out of hand a little? i mean, i agree with IHG, but the tone you two are typing in really doesnt strike me as friendly or neutral( i could just be reading it wrong though)

also IHG, that collosus reporting back to base was funny

 

The Hellion is extremely positional. The Colossus is moderately positional.

Actually, pretty much anything gets devoured by Zerglings in melee combat. That's why most sane units don't enter into melee combat with Zerglings, they have better single target DPS per resource than pretty much any other unit in the game.

Show me a video where 20+ units fail to clump in combat, and you can have a cookie.

Sorry, but that does not make it a critical mass unit. Is a Hellion a critical mass unit? Nope. In order for a unit to qualify as a critical mass unit, it should be at least somewhat effective against most unit types. Hellions, like a Colossus, would be utterly trashed by ground tanks like the Ultralisk, or, say, air units. The Carrier can and is decently effective against all units save other Capital Ships.

It would be from A to A, but the thickness of the beams AOE would be about 2/3s the Diameter of D, and the range would be from B to B*2

A colossus shouldn't fight 5 zerglings because in those numbers, the zerglings do not clump, which means that the colossus is wasting its firepower. The Colossus only gives its money's worth against clumps of units, not a few stragglers. Like a Siege Tank or Lurker, it really won't do to well against stragglers.

Frankly, I think the Colossus needs a Defense increase to 2 or 3, specifically to make it more effective against basic units

For the last time, the Colossus does not have a significant delay. It did not miss the Zergling, it hit the one it was targeting, but because there was not a clump, it likely only hit 1 to 3 Zerglings. this is why you don't use a Colossus against unclumped units.

I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why the 450-450-20 unit was imbalanced. I've already explained exactly why using the Colossus as a critical mass unit would fail; it can't hit air units at all and is ineffective against things with 150+ HP. Hence, unlike Carriers, massing it would be countered easily, by say a small number of air units. So why was it nerfed? Give me a convincing and believable reason.

 

dude.....you just keep restating the same things.

once again
problems
-Its attack is too slow and it doesn't do enough damage
-so far anything can counter it
-attackable by land and air
-expensive and costs alot of people

Your the only one who likes the gimped colossus its like choosing a dude with no legs over a NBA star to play basket ball. (maybe its not "that bad" but still)

 

If the colossus cant kill 5 lings, why would fighting 50 make the colossus magically more powerful, it would still fail to kill any before dieing. In fact, it would die even faster to 50 than to 5.

You only do money's worth of damage by actually killing something. Dealing damage to a bunch of lings wont help you as they begin regen thier life back after killing the colossus. Also, lurkers and siege tanks can actually kill stragglers rather easily.

 

From the Battle Report...

Colossus 1:
Killed by 6 Marauders and 3 Marines. The player could easily have retreated to the support of the approaching attack force, but doesn't. If you watch the battle that ensues, you can see that the units do in fact clump up, a single colossus would have dealt a lot of damage.

Colossus 2:
"Mass marauder fire." It didn't do any notable damage, as it was attacking a Marauder on the edge. This is another situation where, if the Protoss player had pulled the unit back, it would have gotten a lot more done.

Colossus 3-4:
Banshees. These Colossi do a bit more work, but generally spend too much time attacking individual units. The last Colossus, for example, burns away at a couple of Hellions, when there was an entire Marauder army to go after. Once it did move onto the Marauder army, it attacked the wrong ones, causing its attack arc to miss most of them. This is, again, the player's fault.

In all these situations, the Colossus was taken down by the kinds of units that were built to kill units like the Colossus. Half the time, it was in positions it made no sense to be in. I was under the impression that the general assent was along the lines of, "this was not a battle for Colossi and Stalkers" -a statement about the player's decisions, and not the unit's actual capacities.

---

Units seem to clump when they have reached a destination, and when their movement is obstructed by the terrain on at least one side (like turning a corner, or fighting near a wall). If they are engaged by melee units from such a position, they are basically forced to hold the clump. When units are clumped, the Colossus doesn't even need to have an optimal position, just make sure it's sticking to units toward the center.

Units spread out when ranged units are attacking from maximum range- units in the back move to the sides, creating the kind of line we are familiar with in SC1. In this situation, a Colossus can't flank, but must attack from the "focus" of the arc. The Colossus has a longer range than every ranged unit that might be attacking in such a scenario, so there really isn't any reason for the Colossus to be receiving focused fire... unless its owner has neglecting to micro it. And of course, Extended Thermal Lances makes this even easier.
Units also spread into Colossus-friendly lines when they are traveling long distances. Now, these lines aren't as pronounced as they were in SC1, but they're still lines for our intents. In this situation, the Colossus can only flank. If it attacks from a position perpendicular to the movement of the line, it can deal full damage. This kind of scenario would typically be a from-the-cliffs ambush, but it can also be accomplished from behind sight-blocking "tall grass" terrain. If you're using more than two Colossi in such an ambush, you can probably decimate the army before it can properly respond.

Eon: to the proposed "runaround" - If the Zerg player runs around the Zealot line, the Colossus can perform a "runaround" of its own: advance, step over the Zealots, and suddenly its dainty little feet are safe on the other side. This requires something like 1/4 the micro the Zerg player had to use to do the runaround in the first place. Now, this may, for the Zerg player, be a good method to flush the Colossus to the front, to be taken down by focused Roaches or Hydralisks, but if it's just Zerglings going after the Colossus, they're going to be torn up.

A Colossus can't handle 5 Zerglings. A Colossus can't handle 50 Zerglings. But if more Colossi were used, in proportion to the Zerglings, the Colossi would be able to beat the Zerglings. I believe wodan stated earlier, "10 Colossi can kill an infinite number of Zerglings." Now, of course, you probably don't even need to go to 10. All you have to do is be dealing enough damage as the Zerglings approach that they die before they get the chance to attack. If you can settle for less than infinity, a slightly smaller group of Colossi would be able to trade cost, and more, with an extremely large number of Zerglings. This is an elementary concept, when regarding ranged units. The Colossus in analogous to the Siege Tank or Lurker, in this sense. Didn't woden say this in the very post you just replied to?

wodan: I disagree that the Colossus is only moderately positional. I believe it is, like the Hellion, extremely positional, as it must be firing from a small set of angles into a small set of targets, but, unlike the Hellion, it has the ability to change its position very easily. The fact that it steps over other ground units, and cliffs, means that if it is not in the right spot, it is a trivial matter to put it in the right spot. Whether or not a player recognizes this or does anything about this is a different matter entirely.

--

I see the Extended Thermal Lances upgrade as being about as necessary as the range upgrades for the Hydralisk or Dragoon, in SC1. The units can get away without them, usually, but they're extremely helpful. The upgrade gives the unit the ability to better utilize the terrain and its support units to its advantage. It gives it the ability to make more choices about where in the enemy line it attacks. In some cases, it probably even gives it a free shot as units approach.
It's probably something you would research if you plan to make a lot of Colossi- economies of scale. If you have two Colossi, and a few hundred minerals/gas to burn, you definitely want to spend it on another Colossus. If you already have "enough" to do whatever you intend to do (you probably intend to blanket the battlefield with searing heat,) then it would be better to spend it on the upgrade. That way, you can do it with more flexibility.

--
Edit, threw some images together.

Images below...

Spoiler

 

Colossi can still walk over small units? I thought that was taken out. So much for my runaround idea, though still useful if the enemy isnt microing his units.

However, I still dont see the colossus as a good replacement for the reaver. The colossus in it's current state could never be as good a harasser as the reaver, being able to down 5+ workers in 1 hit, whereas it takes the colossus 3 hits to kill a worker. If there is a cliff nearby, the best 1 colossi could do is keep workers off the mineral line til air arrives, which wouldn't take long since the colossus comes mid-late game.

 

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbc6C6Jknr0 you can see the old attacking mechanic in play.

Now as you can see the colossus still has a lot of downfalls if it isn't taken care of properly, but in essence it still is able to keep a balance of power and take out a unit 1 by 1 which decreases the firepower of the group giving it much more staying power.

This attack animation just looks too epic for blizz to want to take it out. (why do you think we all loved the colossus so much)

Their also prone to a cool down and they don't look like they would make the best base raiders because of all the counters they face.

Ya that group got demolished but they where only using zerglings

 

Eon: The Colossus still walks over smaller units. They do it all the time in the battle report...
Check: 14:05, 15:26(less obvious)

Bthammer45: if the Colossi in that video used the attack pattern currently in play, those Zerglings would have died about three times faster.

More images.

Spoiler

AMBUSH!


DEFENSE!


Placement

 

I am going to take the fact that you (wodan) haven't replied to my last 2 posts as a sign of victory, with just this to say.

A critical mass unit is one that gets exponentially stronger when massed, you admitted the colossus does that.

 

That's because you were saying the same things as Itza, and the reply chain with Itza was repetitive enough as it is.

No it doesn't. 10 Colossi will die to a Mutalisk to the exact same extent that 1 Colossi will. Furthermore, Just as 1 Colossi will die to 1 Ultralisk, 10 Colossi will still die to 10 Ultralisks.

For a critical mass unit to get exponentially stronger, it must be able to actually target the unit, which the Colossus can't do to air, or be able to rapidly kill a unit that it couldn't normally, which it can't do to units with 100s of HP, even with large numbers.

That last image lampshades the idiocy of the Protoss player. His units are on a small hill with the exit blocked by Terran forces. Instead of ledge climbing and blinking to safety and joining with reinforcements, they just sit there and get slaughtered by a far superior force.

Also, thanks for all the supporting arguments. That is exactly what I've been trying to argue for some time.

Its not that the Colossi are easy to kill, they are just deployed into suicidal situations from which they could have easily changed to be far better for them if they just moved a bit.

Its not that the Colossi can't hit groups of units effectively, only that the player ordered the Colossi to hit the edge of the enemy force rather than the center mass.

Also, you showed situations where the Colossi works ONLY as a flanker (a unit line moving to the front) and ONLY as a forward attacker (ranged units given enough space to form a firing line).

You can also see the Zerglings clumping a plenty. If the Zealots formed a wall at a small to medium sized chokepoint, there would be an even better clump.

So, in short, I fail to believe that the 450-450-20 Colossus was nerfed because it could achieve critical mass, given that it could be beaten by a far cheaper air force with incredibly ease.

See, that's the advantage of the Carriers. You don't have to invest resources in another unit, it alone is able to deal with ground and air with solid effectiveness. Its also why the Thor is so effective, instead of having to buy an anti-air and anti-ground unit, you can just buy 1 unit which has both attacks, and the HP of those other 2 units besides.

 

I think the focus beam are more useful. because the protoss already got a splash damage unite witch is the archon , and it work great against zergling. wouldn't that be op if they got 2 very high hp /damage / splash unit ?. I personally want the reaver back because I've seen awesome reaver/dropship micro in competition.

 

I think all it needs to be able to do is more damage to smaller less armored units, something to implement a kind of shield kind of like what the immortal but works on smaller units, should spray twice (once on the left and once on the right), and should be able to attack on the move.

The original was just so much cooler but i wouldn't mind seeing a double spray i think that would be pretty cool too. :wacko:

 

imo, the current sweeping beam is the lamest of the animations given to it. I like then it fired the spread lazers more than the sweeping motion it does now.

 

wasn't there a third animation where it was like a shotgun laser blast..beam? like it would shoot multiple lasers in a straight line as if it was a spread fire?? or am i just imagining things..

 

thats the spread lazers I refered to. So, yes, it did have that at one point it did have that. It was the version it had when the zerg was unleashed to the world.