New Colossus Attack

Strangely the attack of the Colossus
16 (+8 vs shields) which means it's like a anti protoss?
also the New attack style is like the old sweeping beam cept it sprays 5 units at once.
original


current

 

You. Are. Wrong. Simply watch a video, any video, and you will see units clumping, Yellow vs. Sonkie, all you ever see are clumps of Workers, Zealots, Stalkers, Zerglings, and Roaches.

Of course, units only begin to clump like that in large numbers, but Colossus wasn't meant for fighting small groups of enemies.

You fail to understand what I was talking about. I was suggesting the following:
1. Colossus stands on a ledge
2. Units get near ledge
3. Colossus attacks units
4. Units retreat
5. Colossus climbs down ledge to chase them
6. Colossus attacks them again
7. Units advance
8. Colossus retreats up the ledge
9. Repeat ad infinitum.

Why? The Colossus accomplishes its objective, that of inflicting 100s of damage and forcing the enemy to retreat. You should probably have the Colossus working in groups of at least 2, maybe 3.

Worked fine in the videos. To clarify, the Stalkers do not blink behind the Colossus, they blink behind the other Stalkers, so that by the time the enemy targets them again, their shields have recharged.

WTF are you even talking about? I fail to see the problem. A Colossus Hallucination has 175 HP, it makes a perfect meatshield for the enemy to target. Also, my point was that the Colossus doesn't need a meatshield so much as they need something to soak up the damage, their ability to cliffclimb does most of their barrier work for them.

The workers either die or stop mining resources. Either outcome is good.

Once again, you choose to pit the Colossus against situations which it is weak against. As you yourself have said, 1 Colossus vs. 5 Zerglings is a win for Zerglings, but 10 Colossus vs. 50 Zerglings is a win for the Colossi. How many times to I have to make it clear that the Colossus should only be used in large scale combat, with either a ledge or a meatshield between it and its enemies, and ideally working with another Colossus or two.

You can use Micro to get better results, but it is not dependent on micro to be effective. The Hellion example doesn't work as a counterpoint. The Hellion's AOE is a 4 Range rectangle directly in front of it. If there is distance between it and the enemy clump, it won't be able to deal full damage. However, the Colossus's AOE does not require it to be particularly close to the enemy, nor does it require it to fire at a specific angle.

Actually it can. However, in order for that to work, the moving target must be a clump of units, and they must not be standing close to the Colossus. If either of those conditions is not true, then you are not using the Colossus properly.

 

Its should target individual units with that attack so lets say there are 3 in the area it would only do 3 medium beams and do a bit more damage and also like i said before he should alternate between the right and left side.

 

The new one splashes everything near it cept it targets 5units at once = bigger splash area.

 

"WTF are you even talking about? I fail to see the problem. A Colossus Hallucination has 175 HP, it makes a perfect meatshield for the enemy to target. Also, my point was that the Colossus doesn't need a meatshield so much as they need something to soak up the damage, their ability to cliffclimb does most of their barrier work for them."

Halls take double damage, so every hit from a zergling deals 10 damage(down in 18 hits, 4 lings would kill it in 5 shots) and 1 baneling deals 110 damage(down in 2 hits). Hall colossi would quickly melt in seconds against any zerg army, so it wouldn't be a very good shield for the real ones.


"Once again, you choose to pit the Colossus against situations which it is weak against. As you yourself have said, 1 Colossus vs. 5 Zerglings is a win for Zerglings, but 10 Colossus vs. 50 Zerglings is a win for the Colossi. How many times to I have to make it clear that the Colossus should only be used in large scale combat, with either a ledge or a meatshield between it and its enemies, and ideally working with another Colossus or two"

50 zerglings = 1250 minerals
10 colossi = 3000 minerals, 2000 gas (300,200 each on SC wiki)

For that mineral price, you could get 30 zealots instead, saving you the 2k gas for something else, and still own the zerg force since zerglings aren't that strong against zealots.

Without any micro, all the colossi will attack the leading zerglings. So in first wave, ~1/3 the lings die. Due to attack delay, the ones right behind would catch up to the colossi and start attacking before the next volley. As we've seen, ling decimate colossi rather quickly, if only 3 of the 10 colossi die, the zerglings have paid for themselves, dealing 1500 damage in resources needed to rebuild.

 

Vampire... the Colossus has 3 different attacks, the first one you can see in the first Starcraft 2 gameplay vid where it only attacked one unit at a time, since then they switch it to the

wide spread one


and currently it is like this

 

Oh psh got it mixed up... I like the old spray one then tho the sweep is kinda cool.

 

I don't knows what real and whats not real anymore....:wacko:

 

the current colossus attack is the animated one in Lurker's post

 

@Vampire.

No, the attack of the colossus was originally a beam that would kill a target and move on to the next. It can be seen in action in the protoss announcement video. Then the attack was the one you labeled as current, now it is the beam that sweeps back and forth.

And where is the players intelligence while you are running their units around like this? That is highly Dependant on the player not having air support, cliff jumpers of their own or a spotter for ranged units.

Inflicting hundreds of damage that will simply be healed, repaired or regenerated without losing a single unit. You make the enemy regroup and bring in air support that they should have some form of at this late in the game.

Stalkers are very fragile, they have 40 shield and 100 health. Even if the stalkers blink at exactly zero shield at full have blink would not have cooldowned by the time the units attacking get to them again.

So it has about the health of a zealot. Not only that but it is a large unit that can be easily surrounded which makes the colossi only able to hit a few targets a sweep, and is expensive enough in energy to not expect to be able to get a wall of them.

So the workers stop mining for a few seconds and you lose 300 minerals 200 gas worth of colossi, afterwards the workers continue working without any loss to them. More colossi just results in more loss for less profit in the raid.

A ledge will not work as a meatshield because enemies do not line up to attack ledges. There is a problem right there with the 1 colossus vs 5 zerglings thing, that is critical mass and all units should upscale. The outcome between 2 of a unit vs 10 of another should be the as 20 vs 100, assuming no extra control is added.

Also, you have not replied to my points on the previous page.

 

The 175 figure was with the halving already applied. Colossi have 350 health, thus Colossi hallucinations have 175 effective health.

Actually, the Colossi would kill an infinite number of Zerglings

That is not what would happen. You keep talking about an attack delay, but the Colossi attack at a fast rate, and against massed Zerglings, it will be impossible to miss. Unless they are attacking in perfect synch, the Colossi will not likely waste fire and quickly switch to closer targets.

Why I don't think the Colossus sucks? The reason is simple. Blizzard nerfed the current version of the Colossus from 450 cost 450 health 20 damage to 500 cost 350 health 16 damage. This implies that contrary to your claims, the Colossus is not only capable of being overpowered in its current method of functioning, but was overpowered.

Some of you have claimed that it is because it could achieve critical mass, and thus had to be nerfed to the point where it was useless in any other function. I find this doubtful, because for reasons you have pointed out, the Colossus in either forms is unable to handle a wide variety of units, including all air units and any ground unit with more than 200 or so HP. Massing Carriers might work because Carriers are effective against anything, are immune to a wide variety of units, and have a solid defense score that protects them from others. Colossi lack that. If someone massed Colossi, they'd simply be mincemeated by Mutalisks or some comparable unit.

As a result, I come to the conclusion that the 450-450-20 Colossus was, despite its apparent weakness in function, overpowered, and that it was not due to it going critical mass.

 

Colossi dont change target mid-attack, and since a zregling survives 3 attack, it's likely that most of the colossi will hit the same area. If there is no attack delay, then the animation is really missleading, as you clearly see a monent when the colossus isn't attacking even with target in range.

Besides colossi v. lings is unlikely to happen as you say, as by that time, any decent zerg player would have a control group of mutas flying around on the map, and those colossi would make excellent targets. Colossi would need stalker or phoenix support to fight them.

Also, the colossi is no longer classified as a raider, it's now classified as "heavy support", meaning it's lost some of its raiding effectiveness in favor of acting as support for protoss armies.

 

You're obviously no longer reading what's being written, so I'll quote myself... Highlighting the important bits, of course.

Read back over that strand of the discussion. You'll find that you've changed context several times. Regardless, throughout steps four to nine, the opposing units are moving, so will not be able to be hit. Also, no attack force would retreat from attacking a base, only to end up charging back in again. That just gives the defending base the whole starting distance advantage, over and over again.

Dealing hundreds of damage?unless you've got about seven, all attacking simultaneously, I find it hard to imagine them dealing over a hundred damage, especially considering that unit automatically start moving about when attacked by something they can't get to. And again, there's no accomplished objective here. The ground forces fall back and the air support's brought in. The ground forces are swiftly brought back in. I fail to see how that's a successful mission.

Too bad the Colossi themselves don't.

And what exactly stops the opponent charging through this so called meatshield of flimsiness?

You know something? That explains a lot.

You were going on about mixing your meatshield in with what they're trying to protect. I don't think I really need to say much more than that.

Except this; Certain spells disperse Hallucinations instantly.

Die? No. It takes about three hits to take out a single worker, and the only chance the Colossus would get would be when they're physically mining, but that wouldn't be long enough for three. Also, they're not clumped. They're spread out with one per mineral field, and they're constantly stagnated as to whether they're going to, or from, or are mining. Stop mining? Why even bother? The air support will be in before there's any risk of dying.

So you've just admitted that it's a critical mass unit. Good to see you're making some progress. Again, that is, read 'should' for those who want to get overly pedantic, not be a situation the Colossus is weak against.

It is dependant on some level of micro in order to be effective. If it didn't, then it doesn't require micro. Believe it or not, attacking perpendicular to its best angle of attack will not wield great results. Therefore, it cannot flank, and the Hellion cannot attack from behind, if they wish to be effective.


[/quote]Actually it can. However, in order for that to work, the moving target must be a clump of units, and they must not be standing close to the Colossus. If either of those conditions is not true, then you are not using the Colossus properly.[/QUOTE]
Zerglings, for one, need to be standing close in order for the Colossus to be able to hit them, so if it's got to run in that situation, what do you suppose will happen? As for running in a clump, that's in your opponents hands. It's easy to spread them out, especially when you only need five Zerglings to down a Colossus 'cause they naturally run in a line in such numbers.

 

Remember in a video that's from one of the newest conventions the colossus failed to kill a single hydralisk (there where other units but i think like one out of the group dies) which it attacked 6 yes 6 times i could get a zealot to do a better job
I don't find it useful to use minerals on it if it can't even do that and if i want a aoe unit i think ill stick with a HT which costs alot less then a colossus

 

colossus should own 1 hydra at least solo >.> it's not that under powered. it's kinda like the seige tank of the protoss army. with 9range upgraded.

 

the Colossus was never made to be a seige tank... it was used to kill mass units or clumped zealots/marines/zealots.

 

And right now it looks like the archon is a much better choice.

 

Sorry, but no matter how many times you say the sky is full of polka dots, I won't believe it. The videos show units consistently clumping in all circumstances involving any decent size force.

Why? The Colossus is as able to hit moving units as any other unit can. The video that you keep showing is an old one. In more recent ones, the Colossus attacks frequently, and with no delay. At one point it also fired many individual beams, also with no delay.

They retreat because they are being attacked and can't fire back. When the expensive and vulnerable Colossus moves off the ledge, they will likely try and attack it. If they don't, the Colossus will simply chase them every which way.

16 damage, multiplied by 6-12 targets, equals 96-192 damage. At 2 or 3 times the rate of which a Siege Tank fires.

So?

No, the people using them in the videos used them in the most idiotic way possible, after failing to give them a critical upgrade.

Um, the meatshield?

Let me know when you can come up with a compelling reason as to why they nerfed the current version of the Colossus from 450-450-20 to 500-350-16, as I'm not buying the Critical Mass argument.

Honestly, it would be much simpler if the Nullifiers just put force fields around the Colossi and called it a day.

Did you even pay attention when I explained the difference between the Hellion, whose AOE is specifically dependent on it standing close and not far away from the enemy, and the Colossus,
who doesn't have to worry about such positioning?

The same thing that happens to Siege Tanks. The Colossus traded superior firepower for the ability to not transform in order to attack, walk up walls, and have a shield bank.

Once again, why would you be fighting Zerglings in those numbers with a Colossus?

 

Your very persistent aren't you.

I agree with Overmind the archon is a much better choice. :wacko:

 

Even in the current form, it's not fireing the beam continuously, so there has to be a delay, if just a very short one.

Chase them, until its far enough away from the ledge that the other player will deside to redirect his forces and attack back. Also, most late game units move faster than the colossus, so they would be able to hit it before it goes back up the ramp.

It also costs alot more than the siege tank and higher on the tech tree.

Um, you admitted they were a critical mass unit earlier by stating that 1 colossus v 5 lings would lose, yet 10 colossi are more than 10x more effective, which is what a critical mass unit is: weak in small groups, but gets exponentially better for each unit added.

yeah, cept players would have air units that can fly right over it. Also, you cannot move through your force fields, so if a player didnt have air, they would get the air producing building started and retreat while your colossus is trapped, or send all thier ranged units to attampt to kill it.

yet, with the current fireing angle of the colossus, it's weak at flanking. It deals damage in a straight line in front of it, but when flanking an attacking army, the army is positioned perpendicular from the colossi's attack, so you'd only be hitting 2-3 units max.

ok, I laughed at this. In those numbers? It's 5 zerglings! 2 zealots could kill that easily, and at only 200 minerals. So a single colossus cant kill 150 minerals worth of a zerg army? Wasn't the colossus created to counter small, light units like the ling?