New Colossus Attack

Was the original Firebat not a functionally appropriate unit? Why did they balance it by replacing it with the Marauder rather than balancing the Firebat's statistics?

Something doesn't have to be unbalanceable for Blizzard to change it. They just decided to make the Colossus a much more micro-intensive unit. However, the problem with that is that they've severely limited its usefulness and restricted its ability to climb cliffs.

Because, as I've already said, it's a critical mass unit. Weak in small numbers, but overpowered in large numbers. As I'd said, it's like the Carrier. A single Carrier is in no way worth three hundred and fifty minerals and two fifty gas gas. However, twelve Carriers are worth far more than four thousand, two hundred minerals, and three thousand gas.

You can check out the Critical Mass thread if you want.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5525&

 

Agreed like the carrier the colossus is not atm worth its weight in resources unless you have like 12 which i would rather be seen using more different kinds of units rather then a huge group of one kind.

 

It's actually exactly those other statistics that I really want to see

Colossus stats as of a single unit seem pretty clear, however there are
very few stats known on how it behaves when in group with other colossi...
And based on those stats i reckon did the blizz-boys decided to change it.
So until we get our hands on some of those official group-stats,
there's no telling for sure if this new attack really is that much better than old one.
I personally can't see how it could be...unless you build mass colossi, (like carriers in a way...) to be most effective...but even then...
based on what I and other ppl saw in the videos so far...they fail to become efficient part of the game.
Also they suppose to have ultra-high targeting system as well
"...Complex focusing and targeting systems are used to pinpoint the continuous damage output of the thermal lances for optimal efficiency." which these new models clearly are lacking!!!
Shooting left to right at units that are not even there any more!! how pinpoint and complex focusing is that?
Seems like they start to aim well and than just hope to hit smtn when shooting without looking or smtn. Maybe they're just lazy or become partially off-line because of the power output

TY

 

Lol this thread is still active. See how bad the Colossus is now? I definitely wouldn't use it in my army.

 

@Itza. You explained how the shape of the AoE renders the Colossus pretty useless while flanking. I am just wondering: Do you think the Lurker and Hellion still function while attacking from the front or back? I am guessing yes, so my next question is why. I'd just like to know what factors you're considering.

 

They just need to give it back its attack the colossus has plenty of counters.

 

ofc the colossus had/has counters

All you gotta do is look at the stargate, spire tech, or starport to find a whole list of them XD

 

If the new version is as terrible as you say it is, then why haven't they switched back?

Then why was it nerfed rather than strengthened from the 450 toughness, 450 cost, 20 damage version?

That a unit might be weak is a reasonable statement, and its quite possible that that Blizzard might strengthen it in the future. However, Blizzard specifically nerfed a unit that you already thought was underpowered into an even weaker unit. This means that you are in direct disagreement with them about the quality of the 450-450-20 colossus.

In short, Blizzard thought the 450-450-20 Colossus was too strong, and nerfed it. You insist that the 450-450-20 Colossus was too weak. In this case, your outside perspective is pitted against Blizzard's inside perspective unavoidably, and I feel compelled to side with Blizzard, who has had more time to playtest the unit and come to conclusions based on it.

 

Ask blizzard. As games get closer to release developers tend to be less willing to change stuff around in their games, maybe blizzard felt this attack could be worked out easier than reintroducing the old attack.

I just said it was overpowered in the right circumstances! if a unit is overpowered in any circumstances then it has to be balanced according to those right? Increasing its usefullness in other situations by simple numbers will make it even stronger under its perfect circumstances so it has to be balanced to be weaker in its perfect situation which in turn makes it useless at anything else, which is incredibly bad for the colossus when its exact most useful situation completely ignores and renders void the cliff hiking 'uniquiness' of this unit.

We've already said the flaw is with the attack and i've explained a part of that above, in my opinion, no amount of number changing can fix this unit with its current attack.

 

The main factor is that the Colossus can hike. I know this has very little to do with the attack itself, but its attack limits its ability to flank from otherwise safe areas. In other words, its attack limits its freedom.

With the Jackal, it's always on that level, or that tier, so it's fine for it to have an attack that's very dependent on positioning. In other words, the attack does not restrict its freedom. Obviously if it's attacking perpendicular to the assault front it will deal a heck of a lot less damage than if it was firing across it, but doing that would be like using Walker Form, when attacking a Colossus with Vikings. It's just common sense to attack across, or in Fighter form, because you're there anyway, and it's much more effective.

The same, basically, goes for the Lurker. Now they're obviously mainly a defensive unit, but again, their attack does not restrict it's freedom, as it's grounded anyway. Now Lurkers are usually Burrowed either side of the defended area, so again, they're there anyway, and it's much more effective.

This doesn't apply to the Colossus. It's not there anyway. It can be anywhere, and that's the beauty of it. However, because of its new attack, it's suddenly being restricted. It's forced to be there anyway, and it can no longer be anywhere. On top of that, it's new reliance on a meat shield limits its ability to hike even further.

If it has this new attack, then what's the point in it being able to hike? It can't travel on its own, because it won't be able to hit anything until it's already being attacked, so it has to travel with a meat shield, which can't hike anyway.

@ wodan. We've already explained why it needed to be nerfed, and on several different levels. As overmind said, and as I've mentioned before, it's got to be balanced according to the peak of its optimal circumstances. The point is that those circumstances are far too restrictive, meaning it's no longer useful in other situations.

Secondly, it's a critical mass unit. Weak in small numbers, but overpowered when massed. Obviously they can't balance it in small numbers, because then it would be super overpowered when massed. To fix it, just like they do with the Carrier, they nerf it, so it's useless in small numbers, but is still unavoidably overpowered in large numbers. Seriously, check out the Critical Mass thread. It's got long range, deals splash, can heal quickly, and deals low damage with a relatively high rate of fire. The only thing it doesn't have is the ability to stack. The new Colossus is a critical mass unit, and a severely restricted one at that.

 

Not buying it. Blizzard is a perfectionist company, they'd rather delay or outright cancel a game than release it half baked.

How so? You are the one who insists on stapling situations onto the Colossus. The Colossus is not a base raider like the cliff hopping Reaper, and no amount of wishing will make it so. It can apply pressure to bases through its superior range and terrain control, but it will do that in concert with regular forces.

Then why did Blizzard, instead of converting the spread attack to a more functional form, instead decreased its statistics? That says that not only do they not think the attack is intrinsically flawed, they don't view it as flawed at all, and in fact find it to be overpowered.

Armies clump. Workers clump. Clumps can be hit by the beam to full effect at all angles.

Has it occurred to you that Colossi also make handy defensive units? Position them on top of a ledge near your base, and they will tear enemies to shreds.

If its exploiting terrain properly, it won't need to worry about being attacked at all.

Even if it was attacked, Stalkers can hike, act as a meatshield, and have AA capacities. Nullifier can hallucinate copies of Colossi to act as hiking meatshields.

Ultimately, remember, the Colossi we've seen in the videos have not received the critical Extended Thermal Lance
upgrades, and have been used in the worst ways possible.

They aren't nearly as restrictive as you insist though. At least, if you get the Extended Thermal Lances upgrade.

Unconvinced. Even a small number of Colossi are effective, just so long as they don't act alone.

Also, apparently, no one seems to notice that I not only have seen the Critical Mass thread, but was the last to comment. I'm unimpressed. The Carrier does not need to be massed to be effective, and even when massed, there are feasible counters, unless you are the Zerg, in which case you are horribly screwed unless Corruptors punch through them.

 

i agree with you on the fact of not needing to be amasses to be affective but they lack what they where good at in the beginning and where fairly awesome units the way they where for what they cost but right now they aren't worth 500 minerals in my mind.

 

Well as we've seen, they don't. We've seen they don't, and we've been told they don't via Blizzard raving about the micro potentials of the Colossus.

That may be, but again it completely wastes their ability top hike.

If that's the case, then your opponent can exploit it to the same degree, forcing it to come down the slopes to continue attacking.

From what we've seen and heard, Stalkers are powerful and fragile, which is the beauty of their Blink ability. Hallucinations, maybe, but you'd have to keep your regular Colossi well back, which would hinder its attack. And that still doesn't make up for the lack of flanking and uselessness when raiding economies.

Thermal Lances or no Thermal Lances, I'd hardly call using a Colossus to raid economies and attack five Zerglings as using it in the worst possible way.

You seem to be failing to understand the shape of the Colossus' attack. Think of it as a Jackal attacking a line of troops from the front. It just doesn't work. Yes, it may still be able to hit more than one unit, but the attack is still extremely restrictive. They've told us that themselves by talking about its micro potential. You can't deny that. It either requires no micro and is just as effective when attacking the flanks, or does require micro and is restricted from attacking the flanks. It does require micro.

They fit all the categories except stacking, and I hardly think that would save it for them. And if you've ever used Carriers in StarCraft1, you'd see that they are definitely underpowered and not worth the minerals as a single Carrier, while overpowered and overly worth the minerals as a group. And if you can't see a similar thing happening for the Colossus, especially with their attack delay, then I have no clue what to say. A single Colossus got downed by five Zerglings, but ten Colossi would simply mow through fifty Zerglings.

 

Mass hydras also own mass carriers unless the battle is in a small area where it's hard for the hydras to bunch up and attack. Not only can hydras kill the carrier, mass hydras can easily kill the carrier's entire intercepter army. I've seen many times where the carriers lose their ability to attack due to most/all the groups intercepters being destroyed by upgraded anti-air. Also, with hydras in SC2 gaining a bonus v. armored, they are the zerg's ground responce to any air army. Defiler plague/dark swarm made the carrier useless against any zerg ground units while wiping out most of thier total life permanently.

About the colossus, zerg can own them with Corruptors, Guardians, and mutas. Also, if the colossus is armored, again the hydra has a bonus against them. Roaches and Ultras would protect the hydras from the majority of the colossus's attack acting like damage sponges. The queen's razor acts like a mobile psi storm, so walking up cliffs likely wont help you escape taking continuous damage. Plus, with zerg getting a 30% speed increase on creep, any zerg unit can reach the colossi before the colossi completes 1 attack.

 

Units clump. End of story. That's all they do in the videos, be they melee, ranged, moving, or attacking.

Chasing?

Why bother? If you've done that, you've already succeeded in denying them the area, which if near minerals, vespene, or a chokepoint, is a good thing.

Correct. The Stalkers simply blink to the back when damaged.

They have range 9. They could also simply be mixed with the Colossi

They can raid economies. They don't do it by destroying workers wholesale. They do it by hitting workers from a position where they can't be attacked back from.

That's like using a Lurker to fight a couple of Marines. Bad idea.

It doesn't require micro. Units clump, and the Colossus hits a large AOE. The only micro needed is to avoid hitting the edge of the clump, and if the enemy force is small. If the enemy force is small, you shouldn't be using Colossi anyways. The Colossus, like the Siege Tank or Lurker, is most effective in large scale battles, while using terrain, and with backup.

 

I don't think it will work anymore. There are 4 reasons:
1. Hydras now cost 50% more, but have the same HP
2. Carriers cost 150 less, but deal 67% more damage
3. Carriers deal just enough damage in a single volley to kill a Hydra
4. Interceptors now have 50 Shields and HP rather than 40, and are built autocast style.

It also remains true that Hydras can be bombarded at long range where they can't attack the Carriers back.

For example, let's say a Carrier fought 4 Hydras:
Closing: 1 Hydra dies
Round 1: Hydras deal 36 damage
Round 2: Hydras deal 36 damage, 1 Hydra dies
Round 3: Hydras deal 24 damage
Round 4: Hydras deal 24 damage
Round 4: Hydras deal 24 damage, 1 Hydra dies
Round 5: Hydra deals 12 damage
Round 6: Hydra deals 12 damage
Round 7: Hydra deals 12 damage, 1 Hydra dies
Results: All Hydras dead, 180 Damage dealt to the Carrier

 

well remember SC2 is still a bit of time off and the beta hasn't come out yet so im sure during that period blizz will be able to do a lot of balancing from the feedback it will get.

Blizzard really listens and knows what people want so when it comes to the end im sure everything will be figured out.

So far they have gone from one thing to another and all in all things look really good and all 3 need some work but they have come along way.

 

Well great fanboying. I would disagree with that notion on several levels for a start.

You mean trying to find the effectiveness of the otherwise wasteful unit by exploiting the cliff hiking? It cannot apply pressure to bases 'through its superior terrain control' when the stalker and air units are the only ones that they can follow. That defeats the purpose of the hiking if you need to transport 'meat shields' for the colossus to be effective. And no sane player (or AI) is going to leave weak units clumped at the base of cliffs (on hold position no less, to keep them from running). The fact is, their attacks in nature and by necessary balancing related to that, do not work with the cliff hiking.

Why don't you ask blizzard? Seriously stop resorting to the 'BLIZZARD NOES BEST!!1111' tactic that is clearly an act of desperation and lack of free thinking and argue for yourself, surely you can decide and argue about what attack you like without needing to know what blizzard prefers?

they do not. Workers especially don't. If you're referring to the clump in the battle report that was due to the base being boxed in with destructible doodads and the colossus still only killed one.

If you are versing a player that sends units blindly to attack through choke points and doesn't scout or use drops or air units at all then yes, i suppose they would tear the enemies to shreds.

Yes, because the colossus is the only unit that can travel up cliffs! Theres no such thing as air units, transports or even using comsat as spotters for forces on lower tiers, of course. The colossus can be easily attacked by anyone but the worse possible player at this stage of the game..

Stalkers have weak shields and fall easy to offensive units like the zerglings, an hallucination takes double damage and, in the case of colossi, from every unit. Literally, every unit that can attack can hurt the colossus.

Range upgrades should just increase the effectiveness of a unit, not be 'critical' in its operation.
When the worst possible way is anything but behind a perfectively straight line of zealots, colossi on cliffs, defending a choke point against a mass of small units sent blindly into battle, microed to clump at the frontline and without a spotter or support units at all, then honestly, i don't think we will see anything other very often.

No they don't. End of story. See what i did there? Units would have to have the worst possible pathing to clump. Melee units encircle, Ranged do to a less noticeable extent. They do that in order to have the most units possible damaging a target or group of targets. When moving, they clearly move linearly.

Then that completely goes against the role of 'support unit' that you've been trying to categorise colossi as.

Or they can come in transports or their cliff hoppers which, if they can't get at this stage in the game they're doing something wrong.

Thats not the godsend you're making it out to me, especially for a meatshield, fifteen seconds is a hell of a long time in a battle for a cooldown.

And workers can't run when they're being attacked? You damage about three workers for 16 damage and they run off and stop mining for the twenty or so (i'm being generous to the colossi with that) seconds it takes to respond, what a raid!

Units do not clump. If they're throwing units at a choke to force them to 'clump' then they're probably going to lose right off there. The colossus would just be a style'd victory.

 

You're so far off here, it's simply getting pathetic. It's the fact that makes Hellions and Colossi such positional fighters. Blizzard, as well as others who have played and reported on it, have said that themselves. Here's a quote from Karune about the Hellion:

And another on the Colossi:

Why do you simply keep ignoring this? They do not clump when attacking, and regardless of whether they do, or don't, when moving, attacking or performing a daring daylight robbery of Fort Knox on elephant back, so you can quit bringing it up again, they do not do it to such a degree that it makes the Colossus a useful flanker or the Hellion a useful back line fighter. Yes, they might clump, to some finite degree that you seem overly pedantic about expressing and using as 'proof', but the Colossi and Hellions are extremely positional fighters who require to be microed in order for their attack to hit as many units as possible. If they can attack at an angle perpendicular to that of their optimal firing line then it does not require micro. The Colossus and Hellion both do. Therefore the Colossus can not flank effectively, and therefore, wastes its hiking ability.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Firstly, we were tlaking in relation to Lurkers. Stick to your guns, and don't try and twist people's words. Secondly, unless you're trying to chase down Reapers or a Colossus, there's no need to hike. Thirdly, with the Colossus' attack, it won't even be able to hit any fleeing units anyway.

If by 'denying them the area' you mean 'protecting their units until they bring in the air support', then yes. Now you'll most likely say that the same could be done with the old, but at least it could have actually picked some off before they started to retaliate, so now, you're probably jsut going to fall back on your 'Stalker support' card. Again.

Wow, wodan. Wow. That's one top meatshield you got going there.

Again, wow. Great meatshield. You know, I always thought of them as something out in front so that they can, you know, take the damage, but I can see you've taken it to a brilliant new level.

'Hitting' workers is like typing 'noob!' in in chat. Long story short, what's it achieve? If you're not actually doing anything permanent, then you're just wasting your time, meaning that it's probably actually more beneficial for your opponent for you to raid their economy.

It's not at all like that. We're talking three hundred minerals and two fifty gas of Anti-Zergling material being taken down by a hundred and twenty five minerals worth of Zerglings. On top of that, the Lurker would actually have a fighting chance. It would at least be able to kill one.

I've already responded to this. Look anywhere about the Colossus' attack, obviously barring what you've said yourself, and it will rave about the microing potential. It is its microing potential that prevents it from flanking, and other such things, due to the fact that it's based so heavily on its position.

Not to forget that it can't even hit a moving target.

 

Wodan46 do you not see anything wrong with the colossus maybe they don't justify their cost or maybe something else possibly?

ideas
-give it back its shield upgrade which would act like a stronger shield against smaller units with like 12 damage or less something to that nature.
-make it be able to attack on the move
-faster sweeps (like after the right side swipes the other swipes right after it) it should be able to use one beam and then another one and it should also be able to justify when the best path to hit the most units.
- plus damage against smaller units

What the carrier and colossus are going to look like if used wrong.