New Colossus Attack

It fires in a straight line from the body? Awesome with some skill you can master killing mass units pretty fast.

 

Doesn't seem worth the cost for me, maybe once its massed, seems like more of a build up unit with those stats (the opposite of our beloved reaver )

EDIT: No vampire it fires in a horizontal line in front of it a distance from the body, if thats not what you meant.

 

No. To clarify:
----------------------------------------Splash Zone
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Colossus--------------------------------||||||
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The Splash Zone is always perpendicular to the Colossus' forward direction.

The thing that is hard to tell is how big the AOE is. To me, the AOE is gigantic, and combined with improved unit AI allowing units to bunch up in tight formation more often, means that the Colossus can hit somewhere between 6-12 units per attack, which combined with its fire rate being at least twice as fast as a Siege Tank, means that every time the Siege Tank fires, the Colossus dishes out 200-400 damage.

 

uh, yeah i dont think blizzard is gonna change every single unit just so that the collosus can be better.

 

why not just have a switch that lets you use transition for focus fire and split shot like in wc3

 

What difference would it be? Other then one splashes differently then the other. Unless the focused beam does extra damage to single unit and spread does bit less damage?

 

Personally I liked to look of the original fire sweep that went from unit to unit , but I do agree something needed to be done about the fact that it could double as a siege unit with the high damage pre firing, but I think that could have been done simply by making the base damage fiarly small, with a large bonus against infantry.

 

The original fire sweep made it difficult to see the unit it was targeting. Moreover, I like the new mode of fire, no other unit has an attack that behaves quite like it. That was true for the original one, but that one couldn't be micro-ed, whereas this version rewards it.

 

in wc3 split shot, damage will be reduced but will hit multiple targets while normal shot will do normal damage

lets say the colossus has five beams for split shot
each beam does only 20% damage but can hit five targets or the attack is AOE
while the normal focus fire attack does 100% damage

so the player has the option of split shot for massed units or focus fire for heavy units

 

I gotta stop you there, wodan. What you've stated is not a fault of the attack system, but a fault of the stats. Having the old attack does not make it overpowered, its DPS does that, and changing the attack system does not resolve anything. All it does is change how the unit works, and whether or not that needed to be changed is completely different to whether or not the unit was overpowered.

The old Colossus was a long-ranged support fighter, designed to combat swarmed ground units, and it was much more effective at that back then than it is at it now. With its new line of effect attack, not only can said swarmed units overrun the Colossus, charging it down while its attacks keep landing behind them, but it also heavily dilutes the damage dealt, and both of those things are a problem with the system, and not the stats, though the heavy dilution could be argued either way.

That's probably even more correct that any of us realise, but it's no reason to turn the Colossus into a unit that cannot even fill the role it's been given.

It would be no harder to see the unit being attacked by a Colossus than it would for a lot of other units, most notably being things like the Jackal, Archon and Roach.

And although it's true that no other unit attacks like the current Colossus, but other units do attack in a very similar way, again being units like the Jackal. And it's true that the old could not be microed as well, but simply being microable does not make it better. After all, with the rest of an army to worry about, perhaps a unit that does not need to be microed in order to be effective would be a greater asset to the Protoss than yet another micro intensive unit would be, and let's not forget that the old Colossus' beam could be outrun by particular units, which, if you think about it, can potentially act as a double edged sword, and could be used to your advantage.

Overall, the old Colossus wasn't completely unmicroable, and seeing as there are already a lot of micro intensive units for the Protoss, having a unit like the new Colossus, which isn't just microable but needs to be microed in order to be of any use, isn't such a great thing.

 

What unit was this on?


The old colossus was microable, you could control what unit it attacks and goes to. The difference is the old colossus didn't require a ridiculous amount of micro and positioning to be effective at all.

If i am correct on the way that old attack worked as a mechanic ( X seconds of fire, uninterruptible then cool down) you could easily direct the swathe it cuts with a few clicks.

The reaver was not flawed in my opinion, it is fundamentally what people are saying as support for the colossus' change to the current system, it heavily rewards micro, is a great area of effect unit, is balanced very well with its shortcomings and on top of that doesn't rely on being massed in order to be effective (which i believe contradicts that purpose of a micro-heavy area of effect unit) and is used very extensively in professional league games. It appears that blizzard got it right the first time and tried to fix what was not broken, resulting in a seriously flawed unit.

 

Ursa is mixing up WC3 with Dota. There's no such thing in melee, but in Dota the Gorgon hero has a custom made ability called split shot, which reduces damage by a percentage but multiplies the numbers of arrows fired at a time.

 

What troubles me the most is that currently the colossus does sometimes fire in a straight line...if u take lings or rines or any other unit, that walk in a vertical line towards it and colossus than fires horizontally...it'll do very few dmg indeed, wouldn't it? and think of the fast moving units like this... it'll do practically nothing at all, even if u place 2 or 3 colossi there so as to... do smtn at least so a micro against it is very easy... while micro with colossi is near = 0

Anyhoo the new attack seems very wrong-weak-strange to me, visually more so than balance-wise. Older one looked much better... however
there must've been problems balance-wise...can't otherwise conceive of any good enough reason 4 Blizzard to be forced to change it.
Hope they'll find a way to get out of this mess they've created without going all out radical by scrapping the colossus at all due imbalances or/and coz they've created it only 4 looks,
without considering balance to much. NOOOOO

---
As a compromise to the whole balance-visuals issue :
1) make the attack optional, just like many here have already suggested ( split or focused)...or
2) make it go auto from focused to spread, depending on the amount of units that fall under it's range. The damage is then reduced upon spread and/or increased upon focus. (kinda seems opposite of warp-ray, no? it concentrates all it's power on a single trg.)

Seems NICE at first glance...but think there might be also some issues with it... like it may become to powerfull, but than... it's legendary exactly 4 that.... and it'll also fit nicely with the toss-war-style- lore wise.

This way they won't lose nrg " shooting at smtn that isn't there" seemingly unable to aim properly( all of which SO doesn't fit the mighty-advanced-race) , like
Fo®Saken, kuvasz and ItzaHexGor have siad be4

 

While the compromise sounds like a good idea, it'll likely be useless. People will prefer using only 1 of the options, meaning that 1 version will tend to be unused, which Blizzard doesn't want anything to be unused in SC2.

 

Fair enough.

The Protoss already have a long ranged support fighter(Carrier) and they also have a unit to deal with swarmed ground units(Archon). Void Ray covers siege, in the meantime.

The Siege Tank also dilutes its damage, and it also can be swarmed by units that slip through, to say nothing of its total lack of mobility in combat compared to the Colossi's cliff climbing. However, it is still perfectly effective when working in concert with other units. Against swarms of light units, I calculate that the Colossus deals marginally less damage per resource than the Siege Tank does, though it is outright inferior against armored units, though in turn . If that is a problem, it is easily fixed by increasing the damage. There is no mechanical problem, the Colossus was never intended to work alone any more than the Siege Tank was. They are called support units for a reason.

A proper force using Colossi would consist of 4 Colossi, a dozen Zealots, a dozen Stalkers, and an Observer or two for detection(you will get access to these going for Colossi anyways). Until all your Colossi are complete, carefully harass your opponent with them alongside with your Stalkers. Their 150 Shields, wallclimbing, and 9 range is more than enough to keep them from getting killed. Once they are complete, you start pressing the opponent, and have your Zealots and Stalkers finish off the enemies the Colossi hit while acting as a block to enemy fire.

Hey, it wasn't me complaining, this was what the Blizzard people said.

Frankly, the current Colossus doesn't really need much micro. It can walk over ledges to avoid combat, and its more effective when firing at the central body mass of the enemies. If you've watched the videos, thanks to improve unit AIs, players tend to have their units form big fat circular clusters that the Colossus can easily hit from any direction.

 

wait
so there was no split shot ability in the naga sea bitc witch? my bad then

 

So it's impossible for roles to overlap now? Besides, the only role the Carrier seems to be filling now is that of sentimentality, and the Archon is as much a tank as it is as anti-swarm fighter, overlapping with both the Immortal and Colossus, but that's no reason to have it changed, and nor is/was it for the Colossus. The Void Ray has nothing to do with it.

Colossus and Siege Tanks are meant to work in different ways. Just because the Siege Tank works as a unit, it doesn't mean the Colossus will, regardless of the fact that they both deal splash damage. The Siege Tank deals pinpoint damage, which splashes outwards from that point, whereas the Colossus' is literally spread over an elongated area.

That may not be a mechanical problem right there, but the fact that units can dodge its beam when charging it down definitely is. Yes, the same thing happens with the Siege Tank, but that's a completely different unit with a completely different role. In fact, that's the Siege Tank's design flaw; small, swarmed units charging it down. The Colossus, what with being an anti-swarm unit, should not be subject to this flaw in any way. If it was, it would be like having a Warp Ray that deal significantly reduced damage to Buildings, or having Jackals not being able to target Light units. It completely defeats the purpose of the unit. And on top of that, the way the old system popped off one unit at a time, what with the smaller, swarmed units generally dealing significant damage for their cost, made a lot more sense than slowly wearing down larger numbers, and just to say what's already been said before, the new system doesn't fit in with the Protoss at all.

On top of that, Colossus should not always require backup or support, and should be able to be used quite effectively on their own. That's the beauty of their ability to skip cliffs and other obstacles. No other units can do this, aside from other flyers, which are generally lacking in Air-to-Ground superiority, what with the Colossus existing and all. Long story short, there's little that can back the Colossus up if it decides to go hiking, so it should work as a stand-alone unit, and with its current attack system, it simply doesn't.

As I said before, the Colossus is built to do well as a stand-alone unit, but its attack practically ruins that. Oh, and you shouldn't have to spend thousands of minerals in order to be able to use a couple of Colossi.

In that case it's completely irrelevant.

Then there's the fact that it can no longer be used to attack the flanks, that it's no longer viable as a solitary unit, and that if its not in the exact right spot then it's basically just an expensive target.

Seriously, the old Colossus didn't need much micro in order to be effective, but could still be microed if need be. It could flank your opponent in attack fronts and still be as effective as it was when advancing normally, only now it's taken your opponent by surprise and is able to get at the juicer, more valuable targets, like Siege Tanks and the like. It didn't have a lousy attack delay, so didn't need to be taking damage in order to combat the units it's designed to counter when hiking. It also popped off units one at a time, making it muck more valuable than its current counterpart, which dilutes the damage over a larger area.

The new Colossus does need to be microed in order to be effective. If it's not in the right spot, then it's useless, but if it is, then it's powerful, and because of that, needs to be more expensive, so you could potentially be paying a tonne for a useless unit. It cannot be used to flank your opponent in an attack front because the mechanics of its attack simply do not allow for that, thus limiting its potential use as a cliff-walker. It does have a lousy attack delay, so cannot even counter the units its designed to counter when on its own, unless it's already being attacked by them.

 

The Carrier had total cost reduced by 100 minerals and damage increased by 66%. I fail to see how that makes it "sentimental", other than the general fact that late game units are hardly ever used because few professional starcraft games reach the late stage.

What do you mean, dodge? The attack happens instantaneously, there is no way they can simply dodge out of the way of the laser. Also, the Colossus does not have a blind spot, and can hit units standing right next to it.

Actually, the Siege Tank had anti-swarming as one of its primary purposes, along with destroying bases. The Colossus is if anything less vulnerable to swarms than Siege Tanks, given that it doesn't have to root itself in place and it does not have a blind spot.

Nevertheless, neither Siege Tanks nor Lurkers deal focus fire like that, nor do for that matter, Firebats and Hellions and Archons and High Templar and Ultralisks.

Think of the Colossus as a gigantic Firebat that attacks at range 9.

Neither did the Reaver. I perceive the Void Ray and Colossus to be successors to the Reavers roles as siege and anti-swarm.

Says you. The Siege Tanks do fine even though they need to work with other units. In fact, any unit that lacks the ability to hit either air or ground, or lacks detection, must work with other units anyway.

Except it works fine. Players fail to use it sensibly.

What about for Siege Tanks? Or Archons? Or Battle Cruisers? Or Carriers? Or any expensive unit, which despite costing 350 or more resources, needs to work in concert with other units in order to be truly effective?

For that matter, as you have just pointed out, the Colossus IS more capable than most units at working alone, if it is deployed effectively. With 150 Shields, 9 range, and ledge-climbing, it can easily cause tons of damage at a distance.

So you know something the game designers don't? They said that the old attack caused problems, they got rid of the old attack, and then even after switching to the new attack, they still nerfed the colossus again by increasing its cost by 50 Minerals while lowering its HP by 100.

WTF are you talking about? The Colossus is perfectly able to attack from the flanks, nor does it need to attack the right spot. Watch the videos for how units behave. They form large circular clumps. Even if they are ranged units, by the time the Colossus comes out, they are in thick enough clumps that even if they go to a more rectangular formation, they are still thick enough to be hit from the flanks easily.

Colossi can still do flanks just fine, though granted they won't be able to slaughter expensive units with ease. This is called being balanced.

So are firebats weak because they have to run to fight the units they counter? Are Siege Tanks?

All of that is the same spurious nonsense you've said before. It is clear from the videos that the Colossus will have no trouble doing high damage while flanking, and that when working in concert with other units, be they other Colossi, Stalkers, or Zealots, it has little trouble punching through.

No unit is an island, most units will do very poorly if they are the only unit type present, or if they are the only unit present period. Sending a Colossus alone into a formation of Zerglings is suicide. It becomes less so if there are Zealots and Stalkers that shield the Colossi, and if there are 3 or more Colossi concentrating their fire, or if a Nullifier puts up a Forcefield to keep the Zerglings away, or any other number of combinations.

 

All the reports we've received from people who have actually played StarCraft2 have been that the Carrier is simply not fitting in. They've tried to do a whole lot of spiffy things with it so that it would, like the Tempest and Escorts, but they've always changed it back, and in the case of the Tempest, directly stated it was because of too much of an emotional connection with the Carrier. Now how is that not sentimental? It shouldn't really even be there, and they're struggling to get it to work.

On top of that, it's a flawed unit. See the Critical Mass thread.

Yes, the damage happens at the same time, but there's a delay before it deals the damage. Observe...



There's even a video of five Zerglings taking out a Colossus with ease, simply because it could not even hit them until they were attacking it. It's hard to even conceive five Zerglings taking down a Hellion, and Hellions only cost a fraction of the cost of a Colossus.

That wasn't what I was talking about at all. I was talking about their vulnerability of being charged down by small, swarmed units. The Colossus should not have this flaw in any way, shape or form because it's designed to counter said swarms.

So what? That somehow makes it more efficient to wear down all units, as opposed to popping them off all at once? Besides, weren't you, moments ago, saying that no other attack worked like the current Colossus? And at least players could not micro against the vast majority of those units.

Since when did the Reaver not fit in with the Protoss? It was the perfect embodiment of how none of the Protoss vehicles were originally designed as weapons of war. The huge buzz about the Carrier is that it was designed primarily as a Protoss weapon of war, and does not fit in with that fact, nor with the Protoss themselves.

The Siege Tank's irrelevant to this. The point is that the Colossus had everything going for it to work as a stand-alone unit, but all that's been messed over by its new attack. Of course it's vulnerable to Anti-Air and Cloaking, but to have a stand-alone unit, you do not need a Air- or Ground-to-All, Detection, Siege and Area Of Effect flyer. Seriously, the old Colossus was great for economy raids and harassing new outposts, but what's it going to do now? Slowly wear down the SCV's, granted it's actually able to hit them properly, leaving most of them injured before it's forced to flee? Yeah... That's great.

Nice non-answer there.

All those, except maybe the Battlecruiser, have actual design flaws which prevent them from being used as stand-alone unit. It's not just the expense that causes it. Siege Tanks obviously have to deploy in order to be effective, though granted they can get out of Siege Mode with enough time to spare, could be nicely microed as they were fleeing, though the problem was actually getting them out. Archons work great as stand-alone units against Zerg specifically, but if they're caught by a Ghost, it's lights out for them. Battlecruisers were also pretty effective as a stand-alone units, being able to Yamato any Anti-Air defences, allowing an opening for it to attack in. The problem for it, though, was that it was slow, so had trouble escaping.

The Colossus had almost everything going for it. It acts like a flyer, is fairly durable, decent range, and had a great and unique attack which was great against the units it was designed to be great against. The current Colossus however, does not have this same standard of attack, and has to be taking damage in order to attack the units it's designed to be great against.

That's all correct, except for causing a tonne of damage at a distance. It is far too easily microed against and can't hit a unit running right at it.

No, I'm saying it's irrelevant, because it applies to a whole lot of other units as well, so it isn't a problem with the Colossus itself.

Units may travel in clusters now, but they do not fight in clusters. If the current Colossus were to flank a battle then its attack would be going against the line of the front. Funnily enough, it's this line attack of the Colossus that has people raving about the micro possibilities, when it actually restricts the Colossus quite severely.

Oh, and it's impossible to balance that any other way? I mean, it's not like they could have balanced its attack to define its own role in the exact same way they did with all the other units...

Firebats were not long-ranged support fighters, and the Siege Tanks are completely different altogether.

I have seen no video of one of the new Colossus flanking a front, and there's not even any reason to use one that way any more. It goes against everything they've said about how great the new Colossus for microing by behaving in the complete opposite way.

Raiders are designed to cope on their own, and the Colossus was designed to be an effective raider, until now. Now that it needs to be backed up in order to deal damage, what's the point of it being able to hike cliffs? When's it even going to need to do that? It can hardly raid now, it can't flank, and it needs to be with Zealots and other units that cannot jump cliffs in order to fight, if it's being attacked in an assault front then chances are it's being attacked by an Air unit, so running up a cliff will do nothing, if not less.

It doesn't have to be an island to be a viable stand-alone unit.

 

Nice summary there, ItzaHexGor. I hadn't really thought about it, but the new attack style does limit its effectivenss as you say.

I first noticed an issue with the new colossus during the battle report when the 1 colossus got into the terrans second base, and didnt manage to kill any SCVs even though they were all clumped together before being turned away by the terran's army. 2 zealots would have been able to do more damage than the colossus did.

The main reason I would see cliffwalking being successful would be for lenthening the battle field, but thatsnot likely to happen since the enemy wont go there due to being unable the see the colossus. It could also be used to guard passages, though you would need multiple colossi for it to be a threat.