Merge the Carrier and the Mothership.

The MS its also a spell caster and is a great support unit. With time bomb, planet cracker, and cloaking field, is a powerful arbiter replacement.

Whereas the carrier is a direct attack ship, and its role is the same as in sc1.

Both ships are similar, but play different roles when looked at from basic angles; carrier still plays its old roles, whereas the MS replaces the arbiter as a support fighter.

 

Where are they similar? The only similarity I see is that they're both protoss, both air units and that they're both "capital ships" on the official website. You could say that the stalker and immortal overlap too in that logic, since they're both protoss, both ground units and both a "replacement for dragoon".

 

Similar as in they are both damage dealing capital ships; however, they both have different ways of doing it.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but - they're similar because they both deal damage? Would you mind reading that again?
And because they're both capital ships? It's just two words on the official page. I don't see what the big deal is, it will get changed sooner or later.

 

I don't really see the big deal either, I think people bring it up because to protoss have two powerful capital ships and as far as we know, the terrans only have one. Not sure about the zerg yet.

People just think the two capital ships overlap because they think they serve the same function.

 

Ok since you choose to keep arguing lets start off with he basics.

Ok first in counter to everyone saying the super unit Mothership is a WC3 hero:

Here is how they overlap:

If you cant understand that take 30 seconds and look how they attack: http://starcraft2.com/features/protoss/mothership.xml


Also here is a response to one of your points that I couldnt find a good response already posted for.

The super unit Mothership would still be a support unit in fact it would be the best kind of support unit because it would be very difficult to kill it and it would provide some powerful supporting effects like Planet cracker and Time Bomb. Also the Protoss are probally going to get another air unit that will be a pure support unit to replace the Star Relic which would perfectly balance the Protoss air force because you would have your basic fighters (phoenix) which can deal with masses of air units, your siege unit (warp ray) which can deal with buildings, your average capital ship which can deal with most things (carrier), your avaergae support unit that can provide the tricks of the trade (star relic?), and finally you would have your flagship which isn't a great unit on its own but can really shine when used the correct way with alot of other units.


Fianlly, even though I am generally the one constantly fighting this battle a few other people have said it better than me so here is a quote from one of them:

And here are the links to 2 more: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2448.msg62752#msg62752 ; http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2448.msg67532#msg67532

Finally since you are insistent on just arguing with your own opinions and providing very few solid reasons (solid meaning something that hasn't been countered in the past and something that isn't very situational) here is a good quote that shows the opinions of majority instead of just 1 or 2 people.

P.S. Before anyone goes crazy about me quoting more than I have typed, 3 of the quotes are from me and the last does a great job of showing my opinions (as well as the authors) on this topic and Remy does a great job of putting it into a wall of text format covering most of the arguments against the Mothership. Lastly, I would like to encourage anyone that wishes to continue to assault the Mothership to use the links I provided and read those posts as well.

 

I'd like to point out that my intention was never to argue, it was to express my opinion. And if someone disagrees with me I have every right to further disagree with him. I wouldn't exactly call that arguing. The thing is that nothing yet has convinced me that I am wrong. This whole thing about the Mothership being/not being a super unit is more than anything else a thing of personal perference. Not to mention that I never claimed that I am right in all things. If someone proves me wrong or convinces me that something would be better I will admit it.
Now. I admit that I haven't noticed the similarity in the mothership and the carrier style of attack. That's true. And after checking your links, I must admit that I also haven't thought about the new cloaking field enough to notice how useless it is. But other than that, you haven't managed to convince me that the mothership would be better off as a super unit or that I'm wrong. There is nothing to be wrong about on this issue. My personal perference is that the protoss has a supportive caster unit which is not limited in numbers, even if it is weaker and doesn't fit in the protoss lore as good as the super unit could. Not to mention, as I already said, that even after Remy's arguments I still like the current version better. And I never thought of the old MS as a WC3 hero, this is not why I don't like it. It's just the way I am, I simply don't find any version of the idea of the super unit attractive. And you have every right to disagree with me. I could have written a long and tedious post and "argue", as you see it, about what you have written, but I see no point. I have already expressed all of my opinions in my previous posts. Thank you for the effort though, because after reading the links and quotes, you at least managed to show me a good view of the other side. Now, I think I'll be fine if the mothership becomes a super unit again. I would just prefer it not to.

 

I would like to thank you for taking a reasonable stance on this subject that is something few people have been able to do. (I can definately be included in the people who have a hard time being reasonable ) So here is my tunr to be reasonable I absolutely understand the need for the Protsss to have a massable air support unit which is why I think blizzard needs to bring back the Star Relic. In my opinion blizzard had it right in the begining when they had 5 offensive air units. (with the exception of the tempest being there instead of the carrier) The Star Relic was/is a good idea and should be returned to the game which would free up the Mothership to become a super unit again.

Now on a not pure opinion here is why I love the super unit Mothership. The Mothership is uniwue in the fact that in the fact that it could do multiple roles while still having a number of weaknesses. Also the Mothership in my mind is an avatar of the Protoss theme. You can only have a very small number of them, they are extremely expensive, and they will destroy most things in their path if used correctly. Finally, one thing that has always bugged me about SC1 is the Protoss never had any unit that was clearly better than any other unit despite the fact they were suppose to be technologicly advanced. (Look at the most powerful Protoss unit [the carrier] and it can still lose in 1v1 battles against battlecruisers were was the massive planet killing ship we saw in the very first cinematic?) The Mothership gives the Protoss the unit that cant be beaten in a 1v1 (the Protoss style of fighting), it gives them the unit says," We are the PROTOSS!, WE MAY BE FEW IN NUMBER, BUT WE CAN STILL, DESTROY YOU!!!"

I know that is an extremely lore/theme perspective but this is a game that is suppose to be fun and lore/theme are apart of that. For example if you just look at each races most basic units you can instantly understand each races theme but the Protoss theme kinda degenerates as the game progresses were is the unit that makes a Battlecruiser cry in a 1v1 like the Zealot makes the Marine cry 1v1.

 

I would be okay with the MS becoming a super unit again if the star relic (or a similar unit) was to come back. The cause for that is that the mothership wouldn't have to have a supportive role anymore since that role would be filled by the star relic. Only then, in my opinion, could it become the ultimate pwnage heavy assault unit again.
Besides, if you look at the terran, they too have 5 air units: the viking in its flight mode, the predator, the nomad, the battlecruiser and the banshee. I don't know why the protoss shouldn't have 5 air units too. They could just axe the statis orb (which is a dumb, unimaginative and unneeded filler unit anyway) and leave the gateway with 5 producable units and fill the total unit count by bringing back the star relic. Would be the perfect thing to do.
I must say that when I imagine the star relic coming back the super unit idea becomes kind of attractive again.

Btw, does anyone know which abilities except detonate the star relic had before it was axed?

 

The Star Relic had Detonate, Cloack (exactly like the current MS), and Hallucination. I dont think it had an attack but im ot positive.

 

I don't see the reason for changing the cloak from a passive ability to a spell. My suggestion would be to give a little less powerful time bomb and the passive cloak to the star relic and a tweaked version of the black hole to the now-again-super-unit mothership.

 

Agreed but I think it has something to do with the fact that the cloak effects buildings as well.

Personally the way I would like to see things paly out is give the Star Relic the Arbiters old passive cloak and the ability to claok buildings as well for energy, Also the the Star Relic keep detonate and give it time bomb while removing hallucination.

As for the Mothership it should have Planet Cracker, a tweaed Black Hole, and some sort of ability that would work well with other units. My suggestion would be the Arbiter's recall but make the ability use way less energy since a player can only have 1 MS and by using that ability the MS cant take advantage of its other abilities.

 

Mothership should be the super unit again and the carrier should stay as it is. And no merging!

 

Ah, yes, forgot it cloaks buildings too.
I think that recall was never in the game because of the warp-in mechanic. But seeing that the SU mothership would be the end of the tech tree it could get it. In that case I see no need for making it cost little energy, what's more important is that it teleports significantly more units, seeing as you can only have one.
Well, anyway, congratulations, you managed to convince me that a super unit mothership wouldn't neccesarily be such a bad idea after all ;D

 

Thank you its always nice to get some good disscussion going and have it actually pay off in some way. (I never actually thought of giving the time bomb to another unit but it actually makes alot sense to do so)
Just for the sake of clarification the reason I suggested a smaller recall that could used alot is because the way I imagine it being used is the SU Mothership sits just behind its forces (that are currently siegeing a base) aand just starts calling in reinforcements from all over the map to create one giant push. Also this would give the SU Mothership great utility for starting something solo and falling back so it can call in the various forces it needs. (I make the assumption that by the time for have a SU Mothership comepletely up and running you will probally have alot of units scattered all over teh map partially because of expansions and partially because of warp in and this would give the "Protoss Flagship" the ability to bring the Protoss together for one massive assualt)

 

Yes, I can see your version working much better in more cases than mine. And I can also see many people saying that recall would overlap with the warp-in mechanic. The best counter-argument that I can think of is that recall is basicly an upgraded version of warp-in and that it makes sense that at the end of the tech tree you get something more effective.

 

I disagree to this. The Mothership has to be in close to use Planet Cracker and to attack normally, so it would definitely be the direct attack ship, not a support ship. The Carrier doesn't have to be in close, and sit on the back line of your attack force and let its Interceptors fly in to do the damage, so it would definitely be a support ship, not a direct attack ship. The Carrier acts like a Reaver, as in it sends other things out to attack for it while it stays at the back of your army. The Reaver is the classic support unit, and so is the Carrier. The Mothership has no way of doing this, and when using Planet Cracker, it actually has to be over the top of its enemies.

 

Well your only allowed one mother ship at a time (Maybe that changed I forgot) but carriers = heavy ships and massing mother ships would cost too much resources so i say it should be carrier and mother ship be serparate

True But carriers are designed to annoy enemies with interceptors (On a non-money map). Also the interceptors get attked more then the carrier so the carrier can stay safe and annoy the enemy or confuse them to make the enemy attk the interceptors instead of the carrier. And for eon's thing with the cloak well cloaking the carrier and letting the interceptors go out and being exposed is a kinda strategy


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Also, my original statement about the MS is still pretty solid, the timebomb and cloak field are powerful support abilities, not direct attack abilities.

The cloaking field cloaks all other units, but the MS cannot attack, making this ability a 100% support ability.

The time bomb still allows the MS to attack, so its is still a powerful support ability, but can also be used offensively.

Since the MS is so expensive, you don't want to put it on the front line too often, so I give it a 60% support, 40% direct attack ship.

 

I think the whole problem lies within the name and the initial introduction.

I mean when a person says Mothership it suggests only one ship, and thats what they did in the beggining of the intro of SC2, i guess super units just didnt work out as well, so they should either change the whole unit(animation and name) or make it a super unit. Currently its an arbiter with different spells and a different animation and called a mothership but its basically a arbiter with more damage.