Marine

i still want my marines to have explosives.

 

and i want battlecruisers to have 2 siege tank canons on its front, but it wont happen. Face it.

 

thats ridiculous though

 

same is built in rpg in marine's guns

 

exactly 8)

Its like giving Immortals cloak, or making a thor without legs.
-silly.

 

cloaking immortals? awsome!!

lol jk

 

Please cut down on the spammy posts here guys, simply to clean up the forum. That's the aim.

In any case, this fixation on the rocket idea by a certain member has gone beyond ridiculous. You cannot simply expect us to continue to consider an idea that has been argued as having no merit when you have offered no change to it. Furthermore, the majority of opinions stated that the Marine doesn't need much of a change at all.

 

Concerning the bayonet:

There seems to be a general failure to conceive of Terrans as a sci-fi faction in the minds of fans. You cannot think of the Terran faction in terms of modern military tech. Yes, a modern marine - given a steel bayonet - and sent into battle against a zergling or zealot would find his clumsy spear useless as a weapon. But, we're not talking about U.S. Marines. We aren't talking about a Civil-war era bayonet, and we aren't talking about human abilities.

On the first point: These are NOT U.S. Marines. The StarCraft Marines are picked for their size, strength and ferocity, all of which are above what we would consider "normal". These guys walk around with a cocktail of intense performance enhancing drugs on them. They are stronger, faster and tougher than any modern human soldier. Secondly, they are outfitted in a personal armored/life support/powered suit. This further greatly increases their strength, resilience and reactions.

On the second point: This is NOT necessarily an archaic weapon idea. There are many ways to render the bayonet a useful weapon. Micro-vibrations, diamond cutting edge, micro-thin edge, an electrical charge, heat transfer and focus, unique alloy construction, etc, etc, etc... With any one, or perhaps several of these technologies, the bayonet would be capable of causing significant damage. Micro-vibrations, diamond & micro-thin edge plus a unique alloy construction... that's all possible with modern tech - albeit very expensive at the present - and that combination would give a weapon that would slash thru a Zergling face like a hot knife thru butter.

This leaves the question of, what good is a bayonet when compared to simply firing bullets? The answer lies in a better understanding of military strategy and tactics. A bayonet allows the Marine to control a piece of ground. A gun only allows the Marine to attack a piece of ground.

On the third point: These are NOT your neighbors. The Marine in his combat suit, is strong, fast and violent on the verge of psychosis. While nature has not equipped them with the weapons to go toe to toe with a Zergling - technology can and has. The Protoss don't have the physical ability to endure melee combat either... they use their minds to change reality.

In short, the Marine CAN enter melee combat on a relatively level playing field... and as a tactical option, it is vital that he be able to do so. It is one sort of general who utilizes range and allows the battle to ebb and flow. Other mindsets wish to make direct, forceful movements. And there is no reason a StarCraft Marine, in his combat suit, with his advanced weaponry could not do so.

 

owerup: for an excellent post, could not have said it better myself.

 

Yup owerup:

and even though all these facts they are still like the second or third weakest unit in the game

humans are nothing without technology

 

great post nate, i agree completely. it doesn't even have to stop at high tech physical weapons, it could even be a plasma bayonet.

 

Good stuff Nate.  I think point 1 and 3 are basically saying the samething, Terran marines are the worst human beings imaginable to man.  But I think it largely depends on ones own interpretation of how big and bad a marine ultimately is.  No matter how vicious and scary a marine is, at the end of the day, he's still just a human.  With the power suit marines close the gap, but again, how close that gap is left to individual interpretation.  The feeling I get from the lore in general is that Terran infantry are definitely NOT the dominant presence on the battle field.  It feels to me that at the ground level, Terran is just barely hanging in there.

This is what Blizzard describes the Protoss zealot:

"The formidable physique of a zealot is further enhanced by cybernetic implants and their coveted power suit. Yet a zealot is far more than the technology they bear. Each zealot is trained for decades in hand-to-hand combat, tactics, pain tolerance and martial discipline." (SC2)

"Using a limited form of precognition, zealots can even predict enemy movements, striking with deadly accuracy and dodging attacks by inches." (SC2)

"Even a handful of these dedicated warriors can easily control an entire colony of other, lesser species, as they are capable of tearing through armored structures and vehicles alike." (SC1)

From that I would say zealots are indeed physically capable of close quarters combat, they only use technology to further enhance their ability.  And their innate psionic power only adds to all of that.  I don't think an individual marine with all his might, technology, and drugs has a chance against a zealot.  That's what I personally feel Blizzard is trying to portray.  A fabulicious bayonet is still a bayonet, you still have to swing/thrust the thing for it to do anything.

As for zerglings, I think each individual marine might be able to take a zergling with the power suit, stimpack, and all that good stuff.  But I don't think a marine will ever be going a few rounds with just one zergling.  When he's swinging the damn thing striking down one zergling the rest of that "brown flood" would just proceed to step over the dead zergling and eat his face.

To address point two, I think that largely depends on how good Blizzard want to make the bayonet in relation to everything else in the SC universe.  They can make it so it goes through waves of zerglings and zealots like a weedwacker, but IMO, that would be watering down the lore.  They can come up with any reason to justify a super bayonet, but it depends on what they actually want it to be.  But within reasonable boundaries, I still don't feel that a bayonet would be a useful weapon in the SC universe.

About the last part of point 2, it would actually still always be better to shoot if you can.  I've served in the U.S. Army for three years.  Some of my close buddies have served with me for 3~5 years, a few of them still enlisted for active duty.  It's true that they teach bayonet techniques, swing, thrust, use the buttstock, etc.  But as far as I know, the U.S. Military do not have a single tactical maneuver based on the bayonet.  They only teach you how to use one for times when you can't use your firearm.  So even from a military point of view, there is actually no situation where it is better to use your bayonet instead.  I'm not talking about special forces, covert missions, and all that stuff.  Military functions for the basic foot soldier is entirely about tactical movement of the unit(squad, platoon, etc.) as a whole, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether an individual can successfully kill an enemy with a bayonet.

 

people forget 90% was criminal in the dominion and the confederacy, that leaves 10% non-criminal

and in the UED it was only 50%

 

Point 1 was that StarCraft Marines have a lot better equipment than modern soldiers - Point 3 was that they are genetically more suited to combat. I apologize for not making the distinction clearly.

I agree that 1 on 1 a Zealot should kill a Marine in melee combat, but the Marine is not hopelessly outmatched to the point where he cannot even damage the Zealot. And a fabulicious bayonet shouldn't be that much worse than a mental dagger; given that a fabulicious sniper isn't that much worse than a thousand year old magic-using space elf.

And I've already addressed this multiple times. Melee combat is useless in modern warfare BECAUSE human beings are rather frail creatures. Every soldier can project such extreme amounts of firepower that it is impossible for either side to close with one another. But StarCraft grunts are NOT that frail. Zealots and Zerglings can, and do withstand a hail of bullets to close and engage directly. Marines in their combat suits can do this as well. On a battlefield where the enemy can close directly to your face, you need more than just range weaponry.

You cannot just shoot away at something that is attacking you with it's body. You are just as likely to injure yourself or other members of your squad. Hand to hand combat needs hand to hand weapons.

 

this is how i imagine a typical marine vs zergling scenario in sc:

marine fires rifle while zergling charges towards it.
zergling leaps at marine when close enough, sometime landing on top of the gun rendering it useless.
marine try to throw zergling off and the struggle begins until one of them is dead.

now in this situation the bayonet would totally be useful, due to the zergling's aggressive nature it's entirely possible that they would leap onto the bayonet and impale themselves. since in this matchup the zergling is the aggressor and marine the defender the bayonet will help the marine control the important space just in front of it, acting as an effective barrier/passive weapon due to its constant presence, you can even think it as a piece of spiked armor. it will also increase the effectiveness of the gun because it could fix a zergling in place and make all the bullets hit at close range.

 

bayonets would own, have a dozen marines up front to stabby-stabby, while the other hundred shoot. shields would help too.

 

actually, i don't think it would be advisable to stab if shooting is possible, the bayonet would simply act as a defensive barrier, like if i keep a sword pointed towards you, it would make it harder for you get close to me in order to hit me. i don't have to be aggressive to make the sword useful. in the marines case i have a sword as well as a gun...

 

lot of good that would do against the zerg. a bayonet should do 8 damage at cost of ranged attack.

 

I don't mean to sound like a stubborn ass, but I'm just not convinced. Reaker, in your little scenario, I would just pull the trigger. A bayonet and a rifle are always pointing the same direction.

And it makes no sense to me that zergling and zealots are hard to kill at range with the rifle but it's somehow easier with the bayonet up close. Why does the bayonet get support from sci-fi super tech goodness but not the rifle in this case?

It honestly just doesn't make sense to me at all, honestly. I'm trying my hardest to not be an ass on this one, but it just doesn't make sense. Shooting is always better, always. This isn't even a combat knife, it's a bayonet. Anytime you don't have room to point your rifle, you won't have room to maneuver the bayonet either. The super powered up marine might as well go barehanded in cases where it can't just shoot.

I think I'm just gonna leave this one alone. I don't think anyone would ever come up with something that will convince me. And I don't think I would ever convince anyone who already believe otherwise either.

 

The problem is if something is a foot from you you cannot fire a two foot gun for the shoulder. With a caliber that gun has, controling it even with macinery will be difficult if the butt is not up against your shoulder. Not to mention the fact you can't really aim