Let starcraft 2 be DRM-free

hexgor has points that are correct, while he is also being the person blowing this a bit out of proportion.

That's not what we are complaining about *at least not in the last couple pages, I'm not gonna bother with that jazz...*...The type of thing I'm arguing for is preventing such retarded software to be included in our game. We know what it does and fails at doing at the same time. This thread is about the outreach of PREVENTING this software from being packaged with our beloved game. You're main argument is about "They have the right to include it and if we buy it...we can't complain." True, but we haven't bought it yet *thought I'm sure 99% of us would even though it's full of DRMs....*, but I'm just saying..you got your point across, now TRY to view ours. We don't want it DRM'd because we think it makes us feel like we are renting a game for a one time fee of $50. I figure since the main body of the customer SHOULD have some sort of say in what a company includes *Please don't turn this into a 'group of people want this and this unit to have this ability' argument...*.

 

Yes you should blame EA because they were the ones who implemented such a poor and harmful system that does nothing to contribute to the gaming experience for which you paid. You should definitely complain because you spent your money to buy the game, and as a consumer with rights, you have the right to expect the product to function as expected, and not have your system harmed or have yourself be treated like a potential criminal.

I wholeheartedly agree with Stardock's "Gamers Bill of Rights". They made Sins of a Solar Empire, "the highest rated and best selling PC strategy game of 2008", and it doesn't contain any form of DRM whatsoever.

World of Warcraft is an MMORPG, and due to the genre's very nature, more than just a copy of the game is required in order for any play. We're focusing on primarily offline single player games, which through DRM seemingly, end up like rented/leased games, and that's the problem. In addition to that, DRM isn't required for the games to function and only causes problems; the components for WoW are completely different in their nature and function, and do not cause the same problems caused by DRM.

Blizzard has every right to charge for battle.net if they wished, due to its nature being similar in function to MMORPGs, but battle.net is optional because their games can be played offline or online without any additional input from Blizzard, and no payments would be expected should that scenario be chosen.

DRM does nothing except cause unnecessary trouble; consumers are paying to have this trouble forced upon them, and the trouble includes potentially invalidating the purchase (hence the comparisons to renting).

 

This is just another example of you arguing against something I'm not arguing about. You were going on about how maybe when my computer spontaneously combusts I'll 'finally understand' what you're saying, and I told you about what would happen in that case, so don't start going on about something completely different. This is exactly how I was labelled as supporting DRM in the first place.

About your 'I wouldn't mind' analogy, it's simply stupid. I'm not mindlessly submitting to this. I don't mind because I've chosen to do it. Obviously in that situation, I simply wouldn't do it. It's hardly an accurate analogy to Spore.

Even better! That's just more computers which have been terminally screwed over. Also, simply saying 'use Google', yet alone reading all of these posts, is like watching A Current Affair for news. You've admitted yourself that you've been exaggerating here, and using Google as a source is like trusting the internet, so if you want me to read any additional stuff, link it direct. I'll be happy to accept it if it's legit.

From what I heard about that they're all just boycotting it. It's basically just the result of a scare. It obviously doesn't concern EA. They've said they're more concerned about the sales than the ratings which leads me to believe that there may be another reason for adding it, especially seeing as you've said they've removed it from a lot of their other games, like Sims2. Perhaps there's another reason for it. After all, this is the first major game like this, and, due to everyone's predetermined views on it, it's received bad ratings. EA isn't a tyrant. They're not a company that's hell bent on corrupting as many computers as they possibly can, so I have a hard time believing that they'd implement something so damaging that they'd have to know is damaging as well as extremely unpopular. So, taking that into account it'd have to be there for another reason. If Google's been your only source, then chances are you're only getting the most popular stuff, which would be about the general gaming population hating DRM. This reminds me of WorkChoices under the old Howard government. It was a solid system that worked, but people didn't understand it or why it was in place, and hence, reacting badly, hated it. The Opposition just used this fear as well as their promise to remove it in their favour. The only reason it was hated was because they didn't understand it and didn't know why it was there.

No, true. I'm happy to move on, but you can't say this's false. Which reminds me, what was your reason for saying "Of course.. I just forgot to mention that. I don't see how that changes anything. Sure, you're "renting" an account.. But, you don't have to!". You never responded to that.

No, you're just arguing as though I am.

I'm paying Blizzard for the account. Read the Terms of Use.

Who on Earth said anything about Diablo3? World of WarCraft pays by the month because it works on a completely different system. A system in which players do not own their own accounts, unlike Diablo, but rent it from Blizzard.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm sure you will, but about the Gamer's Bill of Rights, if anything that shows that you're simply exaggerating and this isn't as dangerous as it's made out to be. When official stuff like this is implemented, they don't just allow the rules to be broken. It's not like if someone burned down someone else's house they're able to get away with it. If the DRM has gotten past these regulations, then I'd actually think more of it as it's been deemed as not being as dangerous as you're making it out to be.

@ CyberPitz. Finally someone who's recognises what everyone's actually arguing about. I definitely understand and agree with you on stuff like that, although admittedly less now that I've read at the Gamer's Rights, but it's all this stuff like how we have the 'obligation to complain' and how EA is trying to 'milk their customer's for all their worth' that I disagree with. Regardless, as long as I've gotten my point across, it's all good.

@ Jewels. I'm aware this isn't an accurate analogy, and it's in no way supposed to resemble a threat, but if you buy a game that comes with a punch in the face, do you have the right to complain about the punch in the face? Obviously there's a grey area if it's hidden and all that rubbish, but I hope you can make the link to what I'm trying to say.

Just being an MMO doesn't mean that it's different to any other game. Blizzard chose to implement that payment system. They didn't do it just because it was an MMO.

 

"You've admitted yourself that you've been exaggerating here,"

Wow.. You deserve to be shot for this BEYOND idiotic statement. Where do you get this crap? I'm going to assume (Like you.) that you're a pathological liar.

"I'll be happy to accept it if it's legit."

How about you go to some of the websites I talked about ALREADY? Oh.. That would take copy and pasting the name of the site, putting it in Google, and finding the URL. That's too much effort for you! Seriously, you are quickly going from a poster I respected to one I can only sigh and laugh at. No, I don't care about our disagreement, but you calling me a liar, and an exaggerator WHEN THE PROOF IS A FEW CLICKS AWAY... is ... beyond words, but I'll try..It's absurd, asinine, imbecilic, moronic, stupid, retarded, dumb, worthless.... I could go on and on .. It gets pathetic real quick reading this trash you write when you could EASILY verify what I'm saying but instead you choose to remain ignorant and TURN AWAY FROM THE EVIDENCE and act as if it's some inefficiency in the way I am writing...

This is truly, truly sad. Sad because you will remain ignorant and have not taken the effort to inform yourself, and sad because I wasted my time. You are not putting in any effort, and I've typed all of this.. For you... Hmm.. Apparently, you don't know what I mean when I say "Search Google" I meant search Google for OFFICIAL WEBPAGES! DUH! But, honestly, now... I think you just WANT to stay in the dark about these things, and don't want to admit on a public forum that you come to frequently that you were wrong. It's much easier to just deny these possibilities.. I'm sure PC Gamer, Games For Windows, and StarDock were lying, as well as the thousands of other sources on the Wikipedia (Yes, I know.) or the sources that can be found on Google (AGAIN.. OFFICIAL WEBSITES.. NOT RANDOM FORUMS/BLOGS.. I JUST DIDN'T COPY AND PASTE THE URL IN THE POST...... StarCraft2.com is an official source.. Even if you find out about it through Google.com. Understand now?). There's no way I'm going to do YOUR JOB FOR YOU, but I HAAVVEEE (If you had bothered to read with understanding instead of tucking your head in the sand because you can't finish this argument) given you links and sources.. reliable ones..

LOL!! First game like this? This just PROOVES to me how truly, truly UTTERLY ignorant you are on this issue (Why are you even argueing?) and why you honestly think I am lying. This really must be a big jump for you.. From darkness to light ... No wonder you retreat back to your cave. This must be a lot to take in all at once. I should give these FACTS to you piece-meal. Giving you a quiz and test in between chapters, and possibly a mid-term.

"EA isn't a tyrant."

Ignoring the DRM, yes, they could definately be considered tyrants especially on the development teams they own. But, I'm not about to argue about this. Instead of telling you to go get more informed (I know you hate me saying that.).. I'm going to post a link of a particular lawsuit that employees had filed against EA.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html

EA has had several lawsuits for various things they've done that was unconstinutional/immoral against their employees. They don't care about their employees. Why should they care about it's customers once the game is paid for? No, they aren't tyrant. They're just greedy and couldn't care less about their customers.

My God.. Please tell me they don't speak English as a primiary language in your country, and you learned English as a second language.. This is just sad... How much more will you butcher the points I am trying to make? Do you understand ANYTHING I am saying? I didn't cite some random site from Google as source.. NOT EVEN ONCE!! I merely said use Google to find the official URLs so you can go get educated and not be in the dark.. For example, if I say "on Microsoft's website" I mean Microsoft.com .. Ignoring the obvious, you would only know about this site through Google. I'm not about to waste time or space on posting obvious URLs to major, reliable sites when I'm already going over the character limit (PCGamers's website is PCGamer.com, by the way. LOL)

Why should I? I have answered it, and why should I waste my time pointing out the obvious answers that I've given you.. They are all in previous posts. Don't waste my time anymore than you have. Honestly, I excused you the first time for making mistakes because I typed more than even 'I' would want to read, but if you're going to continue to use my post as a counter-point to your argument YOU SHOULD ATLEAST UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING!

Okay. Maybe. Explain to me what you think companies should do. Should they put DRM in their games? What about if it's harmful? Are you only talking about unharmful DRM? Well, this all started as unharmful DRM, but people (Like you.) got more and more used to it and complacent with it and they decided it was time to add in more DRM.. And more DRM.. And MORE DRM.. until we came to StarForce (FOR GOD'S SAKES MAN!!! READ THE DAMN PCGAMER/GAMES FOR WINDOWS AND OTHER ARTICLES.. This is just damned sad that you are trying to argue but won't put in any effort. You might as well just say this is my opinion and how I feel but I have no basis or evidence for it. You are wasteing my time if you will not try to inform yourself on what I have said.. That is not what I'm trying to do.. I am not your parents, I am not your tutor, and I am definately not your teacher. If you are going to argue about something you damn sure better go get educated on the subject because right now you're HORRIBLY ignorant. It's sad that all it would take for you to learn about this and see I was not lying is to use GOOOGLE to find OFFICIAL SOURCES (StarDock.com, PCGamer.com, 1up.com [For Games For Windows magazine], Microsoft.com, CNet.com, techgeeks.com and ANY OTHER COMPUTER NEWS SITE, et cetera.).

I know that you have other things to do. I know I posted a lot, but stop posting and trying to argue if you aren't going to understand what I am saying. Wait a week if that's what I takes for you to clearly understand what I am trying to say. Or.. I don't care.. Just drop the argument all together. There's no reason to argue with you if you are going to stay in the current place you are right now and make no attempt to learn more about this problem. If you are going to argue about something.. YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND AND KNOW ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING! Right now, you have no clue! You are terribly ignorant and utterly in the dark yet you post as if you are up on the latest news! And, you are calling me (Who has had problems with DRM.) An EXAGGERATOR and a LIAR .. Do you know how stubborn and ignorant this makes you look?

My God, man! Are you a monkey? That same website states EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you.. Oh.. I bet you didn't skim through it.. I forgot..

 

Continued from above.................

=====================================

Fine.. I'll go do what your lazy * should have done days ago... Your ignorance is astounding ... I could deny the Holocaust if just said "Oh.. We're all alive today so it really wasn't that bad." I could do this as long as I want if I never look in a textbook or proof of the Holocaust isn't in my face as I'm ignorantly spouting false statements. You can always look the other way at evidence (Dare I say, proof?) if I don't want to admit a counter-argument or that I was wrong. This is almost done ad nauseum on the internet, and that's about what you're doing. You are making a conscious effort to deny, ignore, try to stay uninformed, and, worse, call me a liar. It's beyond stupid. PURPOSEFULLY staying ignorant... Amazing!

I'll get you some information on StarForce. I'm not about to sort through the thousands of Spore/Red Alert 3 rants to find something on the new SecuROM especially since the sources I've already cited are MORE THAN ENOUGH. Any other DRMs I have covered in previous posts I won't even beat a dead horse with. They are still there, and, since you didn't understand them the first time, I recommend you just read through them again and see what DRMs I was talking about and the effects of them.. Then go check if it's true. I CHALLENGE YOU to that! This is a challenge. If you continue to reply then you are accepting my challenge or else you're wasteing EVERYBODY's time (Those who read this.) Ignoring evidence and looking the other way is one of the biggest time wasters I can think of on the internet, and it is exactly what you're doing...

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11609-StarForce-crashes-PC-Gamer-Editors-PC-when-using-audio-CDs.html
http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/7584
-- Above are some podcasts, apparently, where the editors are ranting about the effects that StarForce had on their computer. There are dozens of others.. APPARENTLY, the PC Gamer staff was pretty upset. I doubt you'll even listen to 5 seconds of a podcast, much less read an article, but hopefully the sheer number of these podcasts and their descriptions will tell you SOMETHING!
http://evo-gamer.com/2008/08/29/stardock-issue-a-pc-gamers-bill-of-rights/
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/03/12/starforce-makes-gaming-hard-and-it-kills-kittens/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_72/414-StarForce-Must-Die
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6147655.html
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1949621,00.asp
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060131-6084.html
-- Recommended. Official sources talks about a few of the things I've mentioned.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149611
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060331/1549225.shtml
http://digg.com/gaming_news/Star-Force_Makes_Fake_Website_to_say_Star-Force_is_Safe_to_Use
-- This is quite funnny StarForce has been known to post links to Torrents of games in which were they denied putting StarForce in. This is definately something they would likely do.
http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2006/03/16/starforce-says-sorry-to-stardock
-- Proof of the above. This was big news before.....



Apparently, PC Gamer/Games For Windows DO NOT upload articles from magazines. If you want proof of what I said about this article you're just going to have to check the podcasts or find scans (I know you won't, though.) This article and the contents of that article are discussed in these podcasts.

Again.. I'll give the slighest * what you think when it's happened to you. But, humor me.. What about if you didn't know of this "punch in the face"? What if that "punch in the face" leaves PERMANENT damage and the company does not provide a way to fix the damage it has caused so you have to go a third-party (Doctor) to get it fixed or the damaged removed? What if the company wants the damage of the "punch in the face" to stay on you.. FOREVER?

No, they did it because of server costs and the kind of community and future updates they wanted to give REQUIRED a monthly subscription fee. This was said by Blizzard a few days before the announcement of Diablo 3. I'm sure, as a Blizzard fan, you've heard of this news. But, because I'm starting to get to know the kind of poster you are.. Here ..(http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=19163) They originally wanted the game to be free, but decided that in order to provide the above they would have to charge a monthly subscription fee. That's my point! Okay? Damnit! I told you we're arguing over semantics; not an actual argument. Just drop this crap. You are saying they charge because you're renting an account. I am telling you why they are making you rent an account. 'Kay.. Done

Yeah, being a Man doesn't make me any different than a Women.. We're all human... Oh.......................... wait.. That's not even logical....

Seriously, if you don't know the difference between World Of WarCraft and Diablo 3 and why it is that World Of WarCraft REQUIRED a monthly fee to accomplish it's goals then not only will I ignore any futher questions on this subject, but I'll feel extremely sorry for you.

-- Don't bother replying until you're sure you understand what I'm saying and have reread my past posts. If you don't care enough to do so then just consider this argument finished. Also, I think you owe me an apology once you get your head out of your * and discover that EVERYTHING I said was true! Calling me a liar, and exaggerating.. Wow.. The things you read on the internet never ceases to amaze me.

 

I fully understand your perspective on the issue, but you're complacent with submitting to the developers' whim and intent.

Developers and publishers may have the right to implement whatever measure they wish, but they do have a target market, and if they expect sales, they have to listen to the desires of that particular market. If a game came with a punch in the face (hidden, because DRM troubles are always rather clandestine in nature), then absolutely, you have right to object and voice your disapproval as much as possible in order to ensure that as a consumer you are not negatively affected in the future.

If you knew that you would be punched in the face before you even bought the game, that gives you even more reason to complain because that would make you feel completely victimised for being a legitimate consumer, and other than pirating there would be no other way to play the game. Your concerns must be brought to the attention of EA because as part of EA's target market, you cannot be paying them to walk all over you.

If it wasn't for the vociferous clamour resulting as a backlash towards DRM, then things would be even worse than they are today. Fortunately the more draconian measures have been prevented, and other schemes have been terminated completely.

I could be cheeky and quote everything you previously continuously stressed about WoW, but I'm sure just by saying that you understand my intended response.

They chose to implement the payment system due to the costs required in sustaining an MMORPG -- you don't see their other games being charged for in the same way, because of their difference in nature. As I said earlier, they could choose to charge for battle.net if whey wished and whilst people could complain against that (because they were used to it being free), their complaints wouldn't be based on the same foundations as the complaints against DRM reducing bought games to behave like rented games.

Again as I said earlier, the elements that consumers pay for WoW to run are a necessary part of the gaming experience; DRM is a completely different matter, as it does nothing to contribute towards playability of the game, and only causes problems.

 

the money we pay for playing WoW is not rent, were paying a fee that pays a large amount of people that keeps every single server in optimum condition, free of bugs, hackers. 10 million people playing, thats alot of people. alot of the money we pay monthly goes to keeping the game well....playable. Look at Everquest, Ultima Online, Final Fantasy 11. they ALL require a monthly fee. why? because they all had millions of people playing the game just like WOW (just not as much people). people pay 60 bucks for the software. now whos gonna make the patches?? would you spend all day constantly patching up the game for bugs and other mishaps? would you do it all for free? i think not. its a full time job and someones gotta pay the bills.

as for the spyware, go look up the 1000+ reviews on amazon.com for spore. SecuRom is the name of it, and is constantly running in the background even when your not playing spore, and slows your computer down as a whole. now i shouldnt say it IS spyware, its spyware based. nonsense crap that slows your comp down.

now i see your in complete defense of EA's action, I know they deserve every last penny for making spore, but this DRM is not the answer.

 

@ Tychus. First and foremost, I don't come here to be insulted. I've been lenient enough already, a few of you have already commented that I'm complacent, so, who knows, it might have been my fault I let it get this far out of hand, but you've seriously gone to far. You have absolutely no right to criticise me for what I have said, when you yourself, have come to conclusions like this:

CyberPitz, Jewels and fordinski have all been able to understand what I'm actually saying. You, however, have not. You're blatantly assuming I'm arguing something completely different to what I'm arguing. The fact that you could come to a conclusion like quoted previously proves it really doesn't matter what I say, you'll just take it whichever way you want. You've been putting words in my mouth, twisting your arguments and decided what I've been saying for me, so until you can manage to sort that out, but above all quit with the insults, then we can continue, not that there's a need to, as I understand your viewpoint and most have been able to understand mine.

I will respond to a few points though. About the exaggeration, it took until you said it's as though the lives of my family are threatened for you to admit that you're half kidding, and then told me I'd understand when my ROM dies, compy gets fried, credit cards get stolen, can't load any games, etc, etc, so if you're still convinced that you've always told the full and rational truth, then what can I say? Good for you.

About 'admitting I'm wrong', if I was genuinely arguing what you're assuming I'm arguing about, then I would, but I'm not, hence I won't. As I've already said, CyberPitz, Jewels and fordinski have been able to understand what I'm actually saying, some even in posts you've thanked, so it's time you do to.

About this being the first game like this, reading what you've written does clear up some of the mysteries as to how you came to the conclusions that you have, as you can't even interpret a proper sentence, again assuming I'm referring to things I'm not. What I said was; "this is the first major game like this", meaning Spore is the first major game like Spore. Not that it's the first major game to have DRM, this is the first major game like this. I didn't really think I'd have to go through such simple things like sentence structure, but, again, it does clear up how you've come to these conclusions and managed to convince yourself that I'm arguing something that I'm simply not arguing.

Again, I still don't see how you can label EA as being so evil, saying they don't care about their employees, customers and that it is just a massive greedy and harmful organisation. It's as though you're describing a single person, like saying America is blood-thirsty or the Catholic Church is pedophilic. Yes, they have had their fair share of criticisms and complaints, but seeing as they strongly rely on the sales, etc, of all their games, they're not going to try and intentionally piss off all their customers in as many ways as possible. They rely on the sales, in more ways than one, they know it's harmful and they know it's unpopular, which leads me to believe that there's another reason behind it, especially if they're removed it from some of their other games as a result of it being so unpopular.

About Google, relax dude, that wasn't a personal attack, though looking at the way you've been handling things, I shouldn't have minded throwing it in there. You don't know how many arguments I've been in when someone's said 'use Google' or 'Google said' as a way of saying 'the internet told me so'.

About not responding, you didn't. You were going on about how you don't have to because you can play on private or self-hosted servers, attempting to prove that you're paying for the servers, not the account, but when I told you that was illegal, you said I totally missed your point. Didn't bother to restate it at all, and this time you've seem to gone to a lot more trouble just to say you've covered that than you would if you'd have just clarified what you were talking about, which is what I asked you to do.

Again, your rants about StarForce, etc, aren't actually proving me wrong, being I'm simply not arguing that they're right.

About World of WarCraft and Diablo3, I'm not saying there's no difference, I'm saying it's irrelevant to bring up Diablo3. Again, just because it's an MMO it doesn't mean that it has to be paid for each month.

@ Jewels. About knowing you'd be punched beforehand, I'd say that'd give you less reason to complain as you'd have to consciously make the decision to still buy the game. Obviously the punch would still discourage people from buying it and wouldn't be taken too well by the overall community, but, to me, it's just another thing you'd have to go through, just like paying, in order to get the game.

About the MMO, I see what you're saying but I didn't mean that in relation to what I've said about it, I said it to show that Blizzard consciously made the decision to keep all the accounts and rent them out to people. The game being an MMO doesn't make it any different from any other game, but Blizzard's choice certainly does.

@ fordinski. The money you're paying basically is rent. It's in World of WarCraft's Terms of Use.

And also found this, which I found interesting:

About all those other MMO's, it's true they're all pay by the month, but, again, that's a conscious decision of the company that makes them. With most of them, they basically do it because that's what's generally done with MMO's, just like how if all computer games started out with monthly payments chances are a lot of them would still include continuous charges and would be justifiable. MMO's don't have to have monthly payments. With those you listed though, knowing that they all require monthly payments, do players actually own their accounts? I'm not saying they don't, just asking whether they do or not.

 

firstly about renting an account and not paying for a service, when you get on a bus, are you renting a seat or paying for the bus service? when you get your car washed are you renting the car wash or paying for your car getting washed?


about encouraging any attempt to prevent pirates, yes we should encourage it but when a company goes too far we should try to pull them back.
for example lets say we think we are getting too many immigrants into the country, it is becoming harmfull to the government and thus to the citizens, the government comes up with a plan to nuke all other countries to stop the supply of immigrants, its an attempt but has gone too far, before we even attempt to praise them for trying we should prevent the potentially harmful action.

how aware would you be that DMR is on your software? when would you have found out if not from here? in the terms of services? well know you don't agree that you want all this stuff on your computer so you can't install.

i dare you buy an $80 game, get it home, take it out of its case, run it on your computer, return it to the shop and ask for a refund because you didn't agree to terms of services.

 

About World of WarCraft, Blizzard actually states that they own your account. That's the difference. Buses don't state that they own your trip, car washes don't state that they own the wash of your car. Blizzard specifically states that they own your account. None of it is yours.

About you're analogy, firstly let's just clarify that there's no such thing as too many immigrants, so the only factor there would be overpopulation, which more relates to what's happening within the country than out of it, not to mention that it's only slightly over the top, but I do see what you're saying. Again, I'm not supporting DRM, I'm not wanting companies to put it in each of their games, etc, and I understand that it's potentially harmful.

My brother had heard about it at Uni, and offered to download it if it was too unsafe and whatnot. I merely said I trusted it was OK, and I've always simply preferred to buy something over downloading it. It's more reliable and quicker, and in this case, is legit.

About returning an eighty dollar game, from my understanding, which may be wrong so correct me if it is, you've got to agree to the Terms of Service before installing the game. With World of WarCraft you've got to agree to it and the End User License Agreement after each patch, yet alone when installing. Apart from that, if you haven't installed it or anything but've done all that crap, it'd depend what game it is, but I'm sure you'd be able to pull some strings to get a refund. I know that World of WarCraft offers a full refund if you don't agree to the Terms of Use, etc, and return it within thirty days, but with other games it'd be a bit more iffy. Regardless, they'd surely be able to tell that you haven't installed it, not sure about doing anything else that's been done to it, but definitely simply installing it. Especially if they're monitoring all their legitimate customers like a hawk, which they seem to be doing in this case. Terms of Service are usually fairly generic anyway. Lastly, just in case this was related to your previous point about only finding out in the Terms of Service if not here, it doesn't apply in this situation.

 

*jaw-to-floor*

I'm beginning to understand where your confusion comes from. You thought I said "its as though".. Not.. I said I wouldn't be surprised if you would be okay with [insert analogy]. Like I said before, you have no idea the points I am trying to make so I will no longer repy to you. You are completely unwilling or unable to follow the argument along with me and understand what I am saying.

As for telling the truth, I have, and if you would get your head out of your * would know that too. I am saying the exact same thing as the others here.. Dare you call them liars and exaggerators too?

Anyways, I was showing you how complacant you are and giving a minor exaggeration about how things could get. That was it. But, for the rest.. You.. Sir.. Have no clue what it is was I was saying. Your reading comprehension is terrible, but I'll be patient with it and assume English is not your first language. I would have no problems with your comprehension errors if you hadn't insulted me by calling me a liar and exaggerating (Get your head out of your *, seriously.) I said all of these things are possibilities that happen to people. Not everyone will have even one of these problems, but just because not everyone gets viruses doesn't mean viruses aren't there and that they will have a problem. Not everyone will get robbed tonight in America.. But, it's still a problem.

But, even so.. Which is worse. To let the pirates get something they are going to have no problem getting either way (These games are cracked before customers can buy them.) or punishing the customers for paying with all the things I've mentioned above?

You were saying companies have the right to put DRM in their games.. I said I'll give a * what you think when you've just dropped 50$/80$ (Whatever games cost in your country brand new.) on a game and you can't play it. The rest is an exaggeration or flat-out lie from you..So.. You owe me a sincere apology. I doubt you will though.

You accuse me of this.. Yet that's exactly what you've been doing. You have called me an exaggerator and a liar when the proof of what I said is so, so, so, so close to you. Yes.. I took offense to that. You offended me first. I am not to blame. Let's move on..

They are saying the same things I am saying (More evidence that I am not lying.) and I know what you're saying. You just, again, don't know what I am saying. I am trying to prove a slightly different point than they are. My God man! They are arguing with you on the same points I am.. How could they disagree with me and be argueing about something esle? Are they arguing out why the world is round but somehow getting side tracked in DRM and World Of WarCraft/MMO semantics? No!! We are discussing the same thing.

... Wow.. My rants weren't about StarForce.. Need anyone any further proof of his errors? Either way, I am not trying to prove you wrong, I AM TRYING TO INFORM YOU!!!

Exactly. I'll give a * what you think when something like this has happened to you and you had no idea about it. Although, in my favor, DRM was not that big of an issue when I had this problem. It was just then starting to get to the point where it was causing users problems. When DRM extended beyond the disc and started controlling/changing your computer.. That's when the problems started.

*facepalm*

Sure, they're all games.. But, so are men and women to humans...

As for below that..

zOMG!!! YOU GAVE US INFORMATION WITHOUT CITING THE SOURCE!! YOU ARE A LIAR AND AN EXAGGERATOR.. YOU GOT THIS FROM GOOGLE..AND NOW.. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!! [/End half-way joking statement]

Thank you for showing me that. I laughed

FOR * SAKES!! WE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!! THIS IS ALL SEMANTICS!! You are saying that you rent an account.. Great.. We are saying WHY you are renting that account.. Blizzard didn't just say "Give us your money because we want it!". DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

More evidence of your failure to read what I am saying. Once we have paid for that game.. Do you honestly think they care for us? If so, why won't they give refunds to people that can't install/don't like the DRM? OF COURSE, THEY CARE ABOUT OUR MONEY!! WE'RE WHAT KEEPS THEM IN BUSINESS!! But, after that, they couldn't care less. This is evidenced by their action.. Not your "owe they're just fine" attitude. No, they aren't tyrant.. They're just greedy. You are exaggerating my statements.. AGAIN!!!

You did. And my point is the same as the others so I'll let them do it.. This argumnent is a waste of time.

Like I said, if my point was the moon, you missed and hit the stars.

Maybe, I would like for you to read what I've written in the past instead of pretending you had and wasteing my time... I hate repeating myself due to someone else's laziness/comprehension problems. Besides, like I said, the others are stateing the exact same thing I am.

So why did you say that they have the right to do it, and that they should be supported? AND, WHY ARE YOU SAYING I'M EXAGGERATING? Just the fact that you are calling me n exaggerator shows me that not only are you wasteing my time, but you are wasteing your time by purposefully keeping yourself ignorant.

Yes, iffy as in the they don't give a * and will not give you a refund. PCGamer has done tests. I don't know if EA was on there, but the tests show lots of evidence

Overall, you have been the one grossly exaggerating, and you really, really do owe me an apology. Maybe, then I'll apologize for insulting you in the same way you insulted me.

This is EXACTLY what I am trying to say!! How can you honestly say I don't understand your point? You don't like the DRM either.. I understand.. But, you said any attempt by them to get their hard-earned money should be encouraged and supported.

You can't, and that's why I said I'll care what he thinks about supporting DRM and anti-piracy measures when something LIKE this happens. But, sadly, he completely missed my point...

I've wasted enough time on you. Everyone else is saying the same thing I am. The only unique thing I could bring to the table was first-hand experience and I've stated my case on that. I'll let the others to continue this if they wish.

I am done.

But, just for the lulz.. Humor me.. Do you think I have worse reading comprehension problems than you considering the butchering you did to my argument?

-- Meh, I had more but it got deleted in edit.. I am not even going to waste my time retyping it..

 

Well at least you've calmed down now.

Regardless of who took offence to what first, you took it way to far. I did say you were exaggerating, yes. Surprise, surprise, I do find that when someone says they're only half kidding after relating the effects of DRM to my family being threatened as an exaggeration. About lying, they way you conducted yourself, yes it did seem like you were lying on some key issues. Not about DRM's being wrong, I never said that, but a lot of your points seemed very irrational. As I've already said they were the ones that were more along the one hundred percent inevitable lines of 'I'll understand when my ROM dies, compy gets fried, credit cards get stolen, can't load any games, etc,', but most notably coming to this conclusion:

...But also when arguing about the possession of Blizzard's accounts. Believe it or not, we're not just talking about DRM here. Just because I've said I feel that you're lying, it doesn't mean I'm saying you're lying about DRM.

About saying the same things they're saying, you may be on some issues but you're not getting the overall picture. They've been acknowledging my viewpoint:

...While you've come to the conclusion I posted earlier.

Inform me about what? You're constantly trying to 'inform' me about it all, when I've said that I understand it's potentially harmful. About it not being about StarForce... You sure about that?

However admittedly that was all more understandable as I'd gone on about EA in relation to them implementing the DRM a bit earlier. So long as we're clear I'm not going on about how it doesn't damage your computer.

About MMO's, it's not the same as men and women. An MMO can have monthly payments and they can have only initial payments. Normal games are almost exclusively have only initial payments. About citing the source, again, that's not what I was commenting on earlier. It was your repeated use of 'use Google'. I can see you've got legitimate sources, etc, so even if it's just for your own future reference, 'use Google' is not a strong nor a convincing statement.

I never said you had any reading or comprehension problems, but seeing as you continuously changed what you were referring to and putting words in my mouth, you could probably understand how it was difficult to argue against. I was trying to reply to what you were saying, but it was only until later I realised you were asking one thing, to which I'd reply, and then you'd change what you're referring to. Still, I don't see how you can talk when you managed to come to the conclusion that I was pro-DRM.

Again, about the 'You don't have to!' point, you've ignored it again. If you want to play World of WarCraft, you do have to pay.

 

No, I'm just as disappointed in you as I've been for the past few posts.

lolwut? You won't understand what it is like to go to war when you go to war.?You won't understand what it's like to lose a family member when you lose a family member? Are you saying something can happen to you and you won't know what it's like for that to happen to you? Furthermore, I never said these things happen to everyone or everytime. I'm saying it DOES do these things, I am and many others have had the problems, and that we are punished for paying when the pirates get nothing. Happening to one person is more than should be tolerated when it doesn't do any good in preventing piracy.

No, I understand and am saying the same things they are. Just because I haven't given a direct statement of "I understand what you're saying" doesn't mean I don't understand what you are saying. I've told you many times that I know exactly what you are saying but in less direct ways.

The links I posted about StarForce were about StarForce (Obviously..) but my posting about DRM was about.. D...R...M .. not just StarForce. So, yes, I am sure. But, I'm not surprised you don't see it.

That's not what I'm arguing with you about. I'm saying that a company has no right to implement these DRMs and any anti-piracy measure this extreme while you are completely complacent with this and in some cases say we should encourage and support these decisions. I am saying NO! Also, I'm saying you don't have a complete opinion on these DRMs since you haven't had the problems with it like I have, and you have no right to tell me that I should accept this or encourage or support these things.. Again.. I'll care what you say when it's happened to you.

You missed my point completely.. AGAAIN!!! Stop wasteing my time!

If single-player games are men, and MMOs are women then this anology makes a lot of sense. The "Women" side is completely different. It functions much different and thus needs different things to keep it going. If "Humans" are games.. Then yes.. My analogy fits pretty well. They're all games, but there's a reason an MMO is charged monthly. There is a reason that an MMO would fit in the "Women" catagory. The MMO genre is different enough to be a different gender. Okay?!?!?!?!!

All we've been doing for the past posts is argueing over semantics and how you didn't understand my post. Please, stop wasteing my time!

I'm sorry, I don't like repeating myself and going over the same thing over and over when the issue is solved and there are more important matters to discuss. We should be past this World Of WarCraft thing but for some reason we keep coming back. There's no reason for it!

.. But, other than the World Of WarCraft issue I don't know what you're talking about since we've been talking about the same thing since the topic began, and I don't know if this is true or not. Your points (Even as butchering of what I've said as they are..) were on the same subject along the same lines.

*facepalm*

This is the most false statement I've ever read from you (That's saying quite a bit!). I guess pirates can't play the games for free either. DRM is just there for the hell of it. Private servers are a lie! I'm hoping you meant you can only play that way legally ...

But either way, that wasn't my point!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING?!?!

World Of WarCraft is an MMO .. Not a game where you play "Let's go register an account!" Again.. You are saying that you are paying for an account, and I am telling you WHY YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE ACCOUNT. It's semantics. That's all I'm saying.

You really should move on. I know what you're saying, and we're argueing about the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER. We agree on this. The fact you keep going on and on about this shows me you don't know what I'm saying.. As usual..

So that we can end this, why don't you provide us with a simple, direct, concise, accurate statement in one sentence that describes your complete all emcompassing views on the main topic at hands?

You still owe me an apology though. But, first you would need to put effort in and check the things I've said .. That's just beyond your capabilities apparently.

 

You could put purely put this down to perspective, but knowing the punch is there means you know you will be castigated if you buy the game; that would give you reason to remonstrate without even purchasing at all. Regardless, foreknowledge of any harm is irrelevant; the key issue here is that we have the right to complain.

The entire issue with World of Warcraft in this topic has become rather convoluted with irrelevant semantics, so I'll mention the original point of contention: consumers are complaining about bought games acting like rented/leased games, but they're not complaining about WoW. To make this comparison fairer, let's assume WoW only required a one-off initial payment (which in actuality was the intention of Blizzard through advertising until they realised advertising alone couldn't sustain it).

Assuming WoW could be sustained through advertising revenue alone, then from a consumer standpoint, it's one initial payment for both scenarios. Again as I mentioned before, Blizzard could charge for battle.net if they wished. To fit with the comparison, let's assume a one-off charge was requirement for battle.net before usage was permitted (any complaints relating to the introduction of the charge would be irrelevant).

When would complaints occur in any of the three scenarios? When playability is negatively affected. If access to WoW was suspended for whatever reason, there would likely be a complaint; if access to battle.net was suspended, there would also likely be a complaint; if access to the DRM game was affected, there would definitely be a complaint. What's the difference in these scenarios? DRM.

As I stated as the final point of my previous two posts: DRM only causes trouble, and does nothing to positively contribute towards the playability of the game; it simply doesn't need to be there. The foundations on which each of the complaints would be based are very different: in the cases of WoW and battle.net, the suspension of access would most likely be attributed to breach of the Terms of Use; with DRM, it's just the DRM doing nothing effectively.

Assuming DRM worked correctly, and assuming one was completely legitimate, then it wouldn't matter that everything was rented, because the initial payments would allow full access to WoW, battle.net, and the DRM game. But then why are there still complaints from legitimate consumers of DRM games but not WoW? Because DRM simply doesn't work.

I believe that's brought the issues full circle.

 

"The entire issue with World of Warcraft in this topic has become rather convoluted with irrelevant semantics"

THAAAANK YOOOOU!!!

But, also thank you for the entire post.. You did indeed bring the issues "full circle" .. I trust that, if this argument continues, it is placed in able hands (Yours.) and I can leave this topic knowing that the negative impacts of DRM will be represented for what it is.

EDIT: Also, ItzaHexGor, I hope we can leave with little argument behind and post on the forums without any hard feelings

 

First post ever. I joined just to comment in this thread.

You are 100% (ad infinitum) right about this. If Starcraft 2 comes out with DRM, I will not buy it until AFTER I have a pirated DRM free version available. That way I can support them, but not allow them to manage me like some kind of retarded, half-blind, pet dog.

As to trusting Blizzard, are you so sure? WoW has one of the worst forms of DRM there is.

Ref: http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/11/15/blizzards-new-warden-and-our-privacy/

 

Woah what a topic this is. A little heated is an understatement.

It's obvious we all here do not like DRM. But winging or emailing the companies or giving bad game reviews because of it won't make them stop or listen to us. We have to hit them where it hurts. Bad press. Get the local gaming media (magazines newspsper articles etc) to smear this everywhere. Make it so no matter where you turn all you hear is X company has computer damaging DRM in their games. They're bad. And if enough people think this is bad then common sense should prevail. Well we hope.

I think we have to be letting Blizzard know. As a fan group that DRM is not wanted in their games. D3 SC2 etc. I'm sure they'll do the right thing. Be we need to give them the extra incentive to do the right thing for the up coming games. An ultimatum of sorts.

I know I won't be buying SC2 if it has spore like DRM in it. Why? I bought spore. But we all know EA are useless idiots. And I wanted to support Will Right and his Maxis team. I didn't want them to suffer cause of EA. But Blizzard do their own thing totally. And it'll be on their heads in put DRM in. I just hope Activision stay the hell enough away on this matter. Because if they fiddle in anyway with Blizzards work I'll be fuming mad.

I to have faith that Blizzard will do the right thing though. Them, Nintendo and the now defunct Rare are the only companies I trusted on these kind of issues.

 

No DRM...NO, No, NO!

If Blizzard puts DRM on Starcraft 2, I am getting my money back. Why should I have to rent a game that is too expensive that won't be mine. The price is at 59.99.

 

Strict DRM, much like Spore's and soon-to-be Far Cry 2's, seems to only promote pirating...